S
It makes the dog realize that there is a consequence for that particular action
I did put it around my neck and I pulled on it hard. I did feel terribly uncomfortable but it did not hurt
It does not allow me to NOT train my dog. 4 days ago my dog would not even lay down. He is now doing without ANY sort of training aid. But I guess the collar never worked did it.
That is great that someone doesn't need to use it on their dog, but I do. I have tried and tried and failed. My trainers even tried and failed and they have been doing FR training for many many years. Yes it is a choice. I need to keep my dog under control and attentive at all times and if it takes pressure on his neck for me to do that and keep some sense in him then I will do it.
And no, I know in my experience from Magnus that is not true. Like I stated before it taught him to lay down and now he is doing it without a collar OR a leash. If that were true then I wouldn't be able to get him down without it.
He had his collar on for about an hour one day and the next day when we brought it out he jumped around like a puppy. I don't think I used it too much.
I did put it around my neck and I pulled on it hard. I did feel terribly uncomfortable but it did not hurt
It does not allow me to NOT train my dog. 4 days ago my dog would not even lay down. He is now doing without ANY sort of training aid. But I guess the collar never worked did it.
That is great that someone doesn't need to use it on their dog, but I do. I have tried and tried and failed. My trainers even tried and failed and they have been doing FR training for many many years. Yes it is a choice. I need to keep my dog under control and attentive at all times and if it takes pressure on his neck for me to do that and keep some sense in him then I will do it.
And no, I know in my experience from Magnus that is not true. Like I stated before it taught him to lay down and now he is doing it without a collar OR a leash. If that were true then I wouldn't be able to get him down without it.
He had his collar on for about an hour one day and the next day when we brought it out he jumped around like a puppy. I don't think I used it too much.
W
no one said you should have, just said it was an option. I'd love for the doc to tell us how she could train a back transport without some sort of aversive
Lots of times in these sports and with the drives of these dogs a prong collar is a safety issue as well. Just had a club member with her dog on a buckle collar get pulled to the ground and shattered her wrist because the long line wrapped around her leg. Her smallish female pulled her around like a bronco rider that was bucked and still stuck in the stir ups.
sometimes doing bitework, it doens't matter what you have or how well you think you can motivate your dog, the guy in the suit or the sleeve is far more motivating than you can imagine to a lot of dogs, not all, but quite a few.
Lots of times in these sports and with the drives of these dogs a prong collar is a safety issue as well. Just had a club member with her dog on a buckle collar get pulled to the ground and shattered her wrist because the long line wrapped around her leg. Her smallish female pulled her around like a bronco rider that was bucked and still stuck in the stir ups.
sometimes doing bitework, it doens't matter what you have or how well you think you can motivate your dog, the guy in the suit or the sleeve is far more motivating than you can imagine to a lot of dogs, not all, but quite a few.
To clarify, because I musn't have been clear enough:
There are "tools" that in different sports are widely acceptable, despite some of the words used here. Not saying one person is right or wrong, but it's the truth.
The majority of people working in SchH and ring sports use prongs.
The majority of field trialers use e-collars.
Not saying that those tools are the BEST for each individiual dog, but they are common "tools" used in those sports.
From what I understand, the prong creates drive because it gives the owner enough to control to restrain the dog, while pushing them, and urging them on.
Then when you do release, there's a tonne of drive/intensity built up from being held back.
Depending on the size of the dog in comparison to the owner, my personal preference if I ever become involved with any of those sports, would just be a plain, agitation collar.
I'm pretty strong from working with horses, so I dont' believe I'll need that extra control of the pinch.
The agitation collars, just very thick, flat, leather collars, allow you to "agitate" the dog, but limiting the injury that pulling against the collar can incur.
It's a personal choice as I first posted, and I'm sure you know of all of the other options. If you've chosen the prong, I wish you luck and am quite sure you'll know if it's being used incorrectly.
Edit to add: From the people I've spoken with, the prong in ring sports/schH was NOT used for corrections, like a leash pop. Just that extra control when working with dogs that are in that "mode" that in the beginning, can sometimes be harder to control.
Just re-read Melanie's post again, maybe the people around here do it differently, but even with the prong on, if the owners says, the dog is to pull. Rather than, when the prong is on the dog isn't supposed to pull. The lady I spoke with that trains in SchH, uses the prong for control and distraction. Yes, it works because of pain, hence distraction but not used for "loose leash" walking or what not. If the prongs are on it's because they are doing work where the dog is up and raring to go against the leash, the prong is that extra control so the dog can't bite until told to do so.
*shrugs* I haven't ever used a prong, and I don't compete in either SchH or ring sports, just what I've been told by a few people who work/train/title in those sports.
Last edited:
Well I have to tell you that the prong got me over a rough and dangerous spot and she doesn't really need it anymore. I guess I must have done something wrong. But I will tell you this: I could NOT have gotten here from there (where I was) without it. And quite frankly, I felt personally safer in terms of getting hurt.
G
Please, lets at least be honest about what the prong is designed to do. By your description, the prong causes no more discomfort than a flat collar. 
Now you KNOW that that's simply not true and it's irresponsible to minimize what the prong is actually doing.
I'll agree that prongs are safer than choke collars but the ENTIRE reason that they stiffle behavior is because they cause pain.....PERIOD. Why not at least be real about it, if they didn't cause pain than they, as a control tool, would be useless.
There are many control tools on the market that provide better results but do not use pain in order to work. Using a prong is a choice, not an ONLY option.
As for a dog being excited when the prong comes out. Have you ever seen a dog who's owner hits him get excited to see said owner at the end of the day?
As far as using a prong to increase focus, intensity and drive, what's really happening is no different than what happens when a dog is poked with a stick through a fence. It hightens drive all right because it's adds an element of pain and frustration.
I just feel that if you're going to have a discussion on tools, then why not be completely honest about how they work and the real reasons they're used instead of actual training.
Now you KNOW that that's simply not true and it's irresponsible to minimize what the prong is actually doing.
I'll agree that prongs are safer than choke collars but the ENTIRE reason that they stiffle behavior is because they cause pain.....PERIOD. Why not at least be real about it, if they didn't cause pain than they, as a control tool, would be useless.
There are many control tools on the market that provide better results but do not use pain in order to work. Using a prong is a choice, not an ONLY option.
As for a dog being excited when the prong comes out. Have you ever seen a dog who's owner hits him get excited to see said owner at the end of the day?
As far as using a prong to increase focus, intensity and drive, what's really happening is no different than what happens when a dog is poked with a stick through a fence. It hightens drive all right because it's adds an element of pain and frustration.
I just feel that if you're going to have a discussion on tools, then why not be completely honest about how they work and the real reasons they're used instead of actual training.
.
G
YES! *click/treat*
Excellent post, Melanie.
Excellent post, Melanie.
Like were a bunch of idiots
. "We" the evil dog abusers are well aware of what happens. Doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out that the flat spikes poke the dogs when the prong is tightened. Hey, I got an idea. I think I might go and sharpen my prong, maybe cause some real pain
.I just think people minimize the pain that the collars inflict. Truth be told, I agree that often times when a dog is working in such intense drive as they do during bitework (or herding, or protecting, or hunting) that a pinch collar is not going to be enough pain to stop the dog from doing anything. But to say it's just a bit of discomfort is quite the understatement. I've used them on myself and they hurt. They don't cause excruciating pain, but they hurt. I can't bring myself to be politically correct about it.
Last edited by a moderator:
G
Never said you were a bunch of idiots, Dobiegurl.
I just think people minimize the pain that the collars inflict. Truth be told, I agree that often times when a dog is working in such intense drive as they do during bitework (or herding, or protecting, or hunting) that a pinch collar is not going to be enough pain to stop the dog from doing anything. But to say it's just a bit of discomfort is quite the understatement. I've used them on myself and they hurt. They don't cause excruciating pain, but they hurt. I can't bring myself to be politically correct about it.
I just think people minimize the pain that the collars inflict. Truth be told, I agree that often times when a dog is working in such intense drive as they do during bitework (or herding, or protecting, or hunting) that a pinch collar is not going to be enough pain to stop the dog from doing anything. But to say it's just a bit of discomfort is quite the understatement. I've used them on myself and they hurt. They don't cause excruciating pain, but they hurt. I can't bring myself to be politically correct about it.
*since I insist on having the last word here*
I fail to see where I compared a dog to a human. I was talking about pain, not dogs being like humans. Dogs feel pain too, they just aren't as demonstrative about it as humans are. Particularly not when their adrenaline is sky-high and they're dead-set on doing something.
And funny, I know a lot of working dog people and none of them insist on using collars to agitate or control their dogs. Then again, these are actual working protection/herding/hunting dogs and not bitesport dogs. I fully admit to knowing very little about bitesport. But I do know sport dog people in general, and sadly many will go to great extremes to get the best results from their dogs - with little regard to the dog's well being.
I'm done here too...
I fail to see where I compared a dog to a human. I was talking about pain, not dogs being like humans. Dogs feel pain too, they just aren't as demonstrative about it as humans are. Particularly not when their adrenaline is sky-high and they're dead-set on doing something.
And funny, I know a lot of working dog people and none of them insist on using collars to agitate or control their dogs. Then again, these are actual working protection/herding/hunting dogs and not bitesport dogs. I fully admit to knowing very little about bitesport.
But I do know sport dog people in general, and sadly many will go to great extremes to get the best results from their dogs - with little regard to the dog's well being.I'm done here too...
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,083
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
The wonderful thing about a forum is that the two of you are welcome and able to move on any time you like - the rest of us who still want to discuss this topic can continue to do so. It's very pompous of the two of you to think that just because YOU don't want people to continue talking about it, we should all stop.
By the way, GSDl person - aren't you the 17 year old that got banned previously because you got really nasty in your comments? And your comment about sharpening the prongs .. are you aware that there are people who DO sharpen prongs because they will do anything in order to "win" in their sports? Now I'm thinking you might be willing to do that too .. very sad ...
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
By the way, GSDl person - aren't you the 17 year old that got banned previously because you got really nasty in your comments? And your comment about sharpening the prongs .. are you aware that there are people who DO sharpen prongs because they will do anything in order to "win" in their sports? Now I'm thinking you might be willing to do that too .. very sad ...
Melanie and the gang in Alaska