Pinch/Prong Collars?

[otch1]

Hello again! Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't critisizing you for your decision to compete in Ring sport. I don't have a problem with it and I am familiar with it. Spiritus repeated an important part of my post... the importance of precision and control. Your post about the use of prong collars being "required" when first teaching basic obedience was my only concern. I too hope you have a great trainer, one who will be very thorough in this dogs training process. Good luck!

 

[Buddy'sParents]

We needed him to learn to pay attention and to learn the down command.

There are other methods to get your dogs attention and THEN train for FR. And I don't need a 411 on FR... I read all about it. I just hope, for your dogs sake, that you know what you're doing.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Hello again! Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't critisizing you for your decision to compete in Ring sport. I don't have a problem with it and I am familiar with it. Spiritus repeated an important part of my post... the importance of precision and control. Your post about the use of prong collars being "required" when first teaching basic obedience was my only concern. I too hope you have a great trainer, one who will be very thorough in this dogs training process. Good luck!

I completely understand. Yes, my trainer is great and his dogs are amazing. I'm not saying the prong is required it is just commonly used in the sport. I also only used it for down because nothing else seemed to work and now I don't need it for that anymore. Thanks

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

There are other methods to get your dogs attention and THEN train for FR. And I don't need a 411 on FR... I read all about it. I just hope, for your dogs sake, that you know what you're doing.

Ok, lets get over it. You don't like the collar, I get it. I am taking the advise of my trainer who owns 9 dogs...all of them with FR titles. Im pretty sure he knows what he is doing.

Again. Nothing worked to get his attention. You could get it and keep it for about 2 seconds and then his mind would wander. Food treats didn't even work.

So I am sorry that you don't personally like the prong collar but that is what is working for me and I intend to use it in the future for FR.

Not only that, what would you rather me do.....be at my wits end from trying and failing with him and have him sit at home becoming a fat couch potato or teach him with a prong collar and be able to do things with him?

 

[xm15]

Also its nice to have someone agree with me that when the prong is used correctly and properly fitted it does not hurt the dog. Thanks OC.

I had to register here just to respond to this discussion and the repeated comments similar to the above.

First off, I use a prong regularly and have used them for years, especially for OB training in bitework. I think they are very useful training aids, especially for 'cleaning up' a dogs obedience once the dog has been taught a command through positive reinforcement and understands it.

However, to say a prong does not hurt the dog or cause pain when 'properly' used is just flat out wrong. That is ignoring reality becuase you feel uncomfortable with the idea of causing your dog pain.

Whether you call it discomfort or pain is irrelevant. Those are just different degrees of the same thing. Prong collars modify behavior through a negative stimulus, whether that is the collar tightening when the dog pulls on the lead (discomfort or low pain) or by a hard correction from the handler. Same thing.

If you choose to use the tool, at least understand and admit why it works.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

A very important component to Ring-sport is obedience. Without a complete foundation in obedience, there is a risk of lacking control in later exercises. The fact that Savethebullies has started TRAINING with a Ring Club tells me that they ARE working on obedience. Obedience first, then on to the other stuff. Teaching Ring obedience is slightly different than other competitive obedience. The heel must be very presise, in a very specific position, with a very specific look. The dog must also be able to heel backwards. The down is a sphynx position down with intent attention on the handler. The sit is very precise, again, with complete attention on the handler. People who train and trial in ring start their young dogs with this kind of precision. Sloppiness at any point can lead to failure later.

Attention and obedience are the cornerstone of ANY dog sport - and these are sports (done for our pleasure, not necessarily the dog's). Heeling should be precise in all competition obedience and preferably the dog also shows a certain joy and happiness, which is seen more often in dogs trained with highly positive methods.

I teach my dogs to heel backwards. They do the sphinx down and also a curled hip down (two different commands). I don't have to use any collar to teach them these. While you can get away with a certain level of sloppiness in novice obedience, perhaps, you don't get that luxury much as you get more advanced. In utility training dogs must respond throughout an entire heel pattern ending with stand, stay, recall and finish without a single verbal command. It takes an attentive dog to do this.

Sloppiness at any point can certainly lead to failure later for ANY dog sport. I don't want people thinking that French ringsport is some mystical type of training that is the only one that requires attention or obedience. People are earning titles all the time on their dogs without having to use prong collars. To me, if a prong collar is regularly used as the basis of training a behavior by a trainer then that trainer is into shortcuts without much regard for the dog.

Since savethebullied is impressed with titles , I can say that I've earned more than 30 performance titles on my dogs - including advanced obedience (utility dog) titles. I've seen some appalling things done in the name of winning by people who were highly ranked in the world of obedience and schutzhund, so just because someone has FR titles does NOT mean he's a great trainer.

If you have to teach your dog a retrieve, are you willing to use a forced retrieve method (i.e. pinching the ear or toe to create pain so that the dog will open its mouth and take the dumbbell)? Will you also try to say that you're not using pain in your training if you do that?

I can't understand being in denial about what you're doing. If I use a correction, I'm well aware of what it does to the dog and I make a choice to do it or not do it. I don't stick my head in the sand and say "oh, it's just causing a DISCOMFORT, not PAIN". If it's pain, I acknowledge it.

By the way, I have seen more than one group doing schutzhund (similar to, not the same as ringsport) who emphasized bite training over obedience. That's not uncommon in the schutzhund world and I'm sure there are people in FRS who also do this - because the bitework is considered FUN and the obedience is not. I've seen dogs who end up downright dangerous because of it. So I don't just take it for granted that because someone's training with a club or a trainer who has titles that it means it's being done right. Personally, with the reputation that the pitbulls unfortunately carry, I can't see using a pitbull in a sport that involves putting their mouths on people. I'm not saying it makes the dog dangerous, I'm saying it can lead to further public impression that the pitbull is dangerous.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Doberluv]

I'm all for having a well trained dog for his own safety and for enjoyment of living with another species. I have well trained dogs and training and behavior is my life.... but I don't need to use aversives on them. Lots of people have explicitly well trained dogs and use positive methods devoid of harsh aversives. I certainly never had to force a dog with a prong collar on to teach it to lie down. The reason your dog is unmotivated, uninterested and unfocused is because he's probably having a rotten time being "trained." That was my whole point in my posts before. It's about motivation. And you can't get a dog to engage with you when he's having pain and spending his whole time trying to figure out how to avoid it instead of joining WITH you as a participant in his education...choosing to focus because it WORKS for him to focus. So, you don't use it for down anymore. The trust is alreay eroded a little bit. Down is not as difficult as a lot of things. Are you going to rely on pain and punishment...avoidance to teach him everything? A prong collar for agility? Did I read that right? Big mistake. You'll never have a good agility dog if you use any aversives at all.

I think in general, the whole human race of dog owners ought to take some time and be asking themselves if what they're doing to their dogs to achieve extraordinary precision in order to win ribbons and titles is good for dogs. I see a highly unfavorable side to some dog owners (in general) who will do anything to achieve results, regardless of what the dog feels like. All the stress of being yanked, poked, scolded, intimidated...all the rest of the garbage that a lot of trainers dish out, including these highly touted trainers and "clubs," may be good for humans, but I don't think it does the dogs any good. What do they care about all that? If it's not fun, games, reward and nothing but, it is just one more silly human endeavor to fill some kind of friviolous ambition. It's another thing if the dog enjoys the fun of showing and is trained humanely. If a dog has to go through a lot of stress and unpleasantness, I think it's a darn shame.

Even police dogs...yes, they do society a world of good. But some of the atrocious, aggressive "training methods" that are still used by trainers who haven't caught onto positive method training....(AND YES, THAT WORKS ON POLICE DOGS TOO) well, I think it's immoral to cause pain, discomfort, intimidation and fear....basically, to mistreat and exploit animals for humans' fickle ambitions and benefit.

By the way, my Doberman isn't a fat couch potato. He does agility, obedience practice and hikes with me. He's explicit with a lot of his skills, not so perfect on some others. But he isn't trained with collar corrections or scoldings...no pain from any collar. It's operant and classical conditioning devoid of aversives. He's normally motivated and eager. He pays attention because he likes to....can't wait fo the next trick. I can't imagine why a prong collar would prevent a dog from being a couch potato. LOL.

And if you think the prong collar doesn't hurt your dog, think again. It wouldn't work if it didn't. It has to be a good thing or a bad thing to change behavior. That is science. And it certainly isn't a good thing. So, don't kid yourself.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Ok, lets get over it. You don't like the collar, I get it. I am taking the advise of my trainer who owns 9 dogs...all of them with FR titles. Im pretty sure he knows what he is doing.

Again. Nothing worked to get his attention. You could get it and keep it for about 2 seconds and then his mind would wander. Food treats didn't even work.

So I am sorry that you don't personally like the prong collar but that is what is working for me and I intend to use it in the future for FR.

Not only that, what would you rather me do.....be at my wits end from trying and failing with him and have him sit at home becoming a fat couch potato or teach him with a prong collar and be able to do things with him?

Whoa. Take a deep breath.

Do it with me now...

Breath in...

Hold it...

Breathe out..

There, that's better.

I actually believe that a prong collar has it's place. I may never use it on my dogs, but I do believe that it can be correctly used and for very GOOD reasons. I just happen to believe that teaching a dog a SIMPLE command like, "down" is NOT one of them.

Again, if you can NOT teach your dog basic obedience, I suggest you look at what you've tried to do before and WHY and HOW it failed. Inflicting pain on a dog to get it to a down is not my idea of a proper training method, there is something else there, there' something missing.

I guess it's shame on me for thinking of your dogs best interest. And I do not say it lightly when I say that I hope you know what you're doing. Your trainer has trained 9 dogs, blah, blah, blah, but basic obedience on a prong? Are you prepared to deal with the fact that your dog may not be cut out for FR? Are you prepared to go above and beyond for your dog in case he can't get "stay" next? Or are you going to tie him on his prong to a stay position?

Do you get my drift now? Do you understand how you sound to the dog lovers and trainers that have so been against the idea of you using a prong collar for something as simple as a "down"? I really hope you do, and if you do, then you'll realize that no one here is bashing, but offering insights and help into what we see as a problem.

If you're at your wits end, I'm sorry. However, inflicting pain on your dog is not an end all. You want to do things with your dog, fine, do them! Make sure your dog is happy , that you are keeping his best interest in heart and that you know what you are doing (not what your trainer is doing, but what you are doing, because YOU and only YOU are responsible for your dog). THAT is what is most important.

I had to register here just to respond to this discussion and the repeated comments similar to the above.

However, to say a prong does not hurt the dog or cause pain when 'properly' used is just flat out wrong. That is ignoring reality becuase you feel uncomfortable with the idea of causing your dog pain.

If you choose to use the tool, at least understand and admit why it works.

xm, I don't know where you came from, but I salute you for being one of the few that will admit that a prong does indeed inflict PAIN but also has it's place in the training world.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

I'm all for having a well trained dog for his own safety and for enjoyment of living with another species. I have well trained dogs and training and behavior is my life.... but I don't need to use aversives on them. Lots of people have explicitly well trained dogs and use positive methods devoid of harsh aversives. I certainly never had to force a dog with a prong collar on to teach it to lie down. The reason your dog is unmotivated, uninterested and unfocused is because he's probably having a rotten time being "trained." That was my whole point in my posts before. It's about motivation. And you can't get a dog to engage with you when he's having pain and spending his whole time trying to figure out how to avoid it instead of joining WITH you as a participant in his education...choosing to focus because it WORKS for him to focus. So, you don't use it for down anymore. The trust is alreay eroded a little bit. Down is not as difficult as a lot of things. Are you going to rely on pain and punishment...avoidance to teach him everything? A prong collar for agility? Did I read that right? Big mistake. You'll never have a good agility dog if you use any aversives at all.

I think in general, the whole human race of dog owners ought to take some time and be asking themselves if what they're doing to their dogs to achieve extraordinary precision in order to win ribbons and titles is good for dogs. I see a highly unfavorable side to some dog owners (in general) who will do anything to achieve results, regardless of what the dog feels like. All the stress of being yanked, poked, scolded, intimidated...all the rest of the garbage that a lot of trainers dish out, including these highly touted trainers and "clubs," may be good for humans, but I don't think it does the dogs any good. What do they care about all that? If it's not fun, games, reward and nothing but, it is just one more silly human endeavor to fill some kind of friviolous ambition. It's another thing if the dog enjoys the fun of showing and is trained humanely. If a dog has to go through a lot of stress and unpleasantness, I think it's a darn shame.

Even police dogs...yes, they do society a world of good. But some of the atrocious, aggressive "training methods" that are still used by trainers who haven't caught onto positive method training....(AND YES, THAT WORKS ON POLICE DOGS TOO) well, I think it's immoral to cause pain, discomfort, intimidation and fear....basically, to mistreat and exploit animals for humans' fickle ambitions and benefit.

By the way, my Doberman isn't a fat couch potato. He does agility, obedience practice and hikes with me. He's explicit with a lot of his skills, not so perfect on some others. But he isn't trained with collar corrections or scoldings...no pain from any collar. It's operant and classical conditioning devoid of aversives. He's normally motivated and eager. He pays attention because he likes to....can't wait fo the next trick. I can't imagine why a prong collar would prevent a dog from being a couch potato. LOL.

And if you think the prong collar doesn't hurt your dog, think again. It wouldn't work if it didn't. It has to be a good thing or a bad thing to change behavior. That is science. And it certainly isn't a good thing. So, don't kid yourself.

Carrie, have I told you how much I love you lately? I don't have anything else constructive to add, I just thought your post was worthy of being repeated.. again and again and again...

 

[RD]

^^^ Ditto.

Personally, with the reputation that the pitbulls unfortunately carry, I can't see using a pitbull in a sport that involves putting their mouths on people. I'm not saying it makes the dog dangerous, I'm saying it can lead to further public impression that the pitbull is dangerous.

Personally, I agree.

Bullied, for someone who goes to great lengths to prove that Pit Bulls are not human aggressive, I find it interesting that you would train your own Pit Bull to bite a person (padded suit or not). While I understand that bitesport often is just fun and games to a dog like a Pit Bull (a fancy game of tug, perhaps), I just wouldn't do it with all the crap the breed is taking these days. :-/ I'm not saying you shouldn't, it's your choice. Just not something I'd do if I had a Pit Bull.

Also, I find it odd that Magnus had training as a police dog yet will not pay attention to you. Perhaps you need a crash-course in handling? I really wish you'd listen to the suggestions people have given you, to get into a regular obedience/manners and attention class before you continue with FR.

As for sloppiness . . . I find that sloppiness is easy to eliminate in a dog that is motivated to do the work. Never letting the dog succeed will cause the dog to resent that work, and that resentment will be much harder to correct than forging on the heel, sloppy sits or slow downs.

 

[DanL]

I agree on all the comments regarding the heeling and other ob type of training in FR vs Sch or competitive ob- it's all the same. Schutzhund and AKC obedience want the heel and down and every other command executed crisply and cleanly. FR is not some sport that is otherworldly compared to other dog sports.

I feel like I'm at some AA meeting. "my name is Dan and I use a prong. I understand the prong causes pain. I am not a bad person for this"

To comment on something that was said a few pages back, about using the prong on yourself and how giving it a tug isn't the same as a dog launching itself full speed to the end of the lead, and that's how we should try it to see how it really feels, I don't think that is a valid comparison. A dog has a much much higher pain threshold than a person does. Our dogs work and play with injuries that would have us on the couch moaning. I know that when Gunnar had pano he was in pretty bad pain, yet he still wanted to train and play. I know when he sprained his wrist he was in bad pain, but that didn't keep him from wanting to go out and run. It was up to me to hold him back. I've told the story before, one time I was playing ball with Gunnar and I went to punt a football. He jumped in front of me as I kicked, and I hit him full force right in the mouth. His tooth punctured my shoe and cut me, yet he ran after the ball and brought it back, tail wagging, ready to go again. If I'd done that to a person they would have been knocked out. Also- a dog's neck (especially larger dogs who are more likely to have a prong used on them) is thick and strong and formed differently than a humans. Gunnar has a 22" neck that is all muscle. He can take me popping him with a prong with ease. Does it hurt him? Yes. Does it hurt him as much as the same pop would hurt me? No.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't know if dogs have a higher threshhold of pain Dan. They might, but I haven't seen any studies about that, have you? I wonder about things like pain receptors in the skin and brain activity to demonstrate that. I do know that dogs and other animals have the instinct to not show pain if they can help it. Showing pain or illness attracts predators to them and aversely affects their ability to survive. They'll do anything to hide it, some more than others. They may have more muscle but the prongs still poke the skin.

No, I don't think you're a bad person for using one to prevent being dragged under a car if your dog is a puller and you're out on a walk. I think those no pull harnesses sound better....haven't used one. I haven't heard you talk about using one to obedience train your dog in other aspects. If your dog didn't sit, did you yank on a prong collar or force him? I don't think so, after "knowing" you on this forum for a while. I think they're not a good training tool for the reasons mentioned. I think it's too easy for people to want to take short cuts, (which aren't shorter anyhow in a lot of things) in lieu of what's good for the dog and that's another reason I don't like aversives. Someone may use something once in a while and the next thing you know, it's becoming a habit and used all over the place, depending on punishment to train their dog. Big mistake. I used one myself for a short period of time when Lyric was still undertrained in extreme distractions. I hadn't heard of that neat harness for pullers. I just didn't feel very good about it so I hurried it up and got him motivated and "into" the "game" to walk nicely in distractions. He still isn't Mr. Perfect, but pretty good.

 

[Doberluv]

Thanks Nicole. That was nice. Hugs to you too. And now I'm off with a flourish...going out into the snow. Snow is falling again!

 

[whatszmatter]

Wow, There are some misconceptions flying around on this thing

First off bitework on a beginning level, drive building, rag work, tug etc work is done right away with puppies or young dogs regardless of if they have any OB training or not, considering that the young dog or puppy is showing proper behaviors for their age. You do not need formal OB to start training bitework.

I can't tell you how many times a younger dog is brought to us that has completed x amount of OB titles etc and now they want to do bitework, that will not leave the handler for anything. It's counter productive to go all one way then come back to go the other. For all these people that are winning FR or SchH titles without prong collars, there are thousands of handlers that have clicked and treated their way to ob title after ob title, and their dog can't use the drive they have to do bitesports. There has to be a balance in there, and that is the trick.

That being said, downs, sits, learning the heel position, out, retrieve, etc are all taught away from the field and away from decoys. A dog must be very solid in those before expecting them to perform then when a decoy is present. I would never expect a dog that didn't have a very solid sit or down to perform that action on a training field, its not fair. But that does not mean that no bitework can be done without OB first. Learning grip behavior, using drive, developing power and drive, etc, can all be done in the abscence of OB in the beginning.

as the dog progresses OB is added to the bitework routine. In trials OB is a huge part of bitework, more so in Schutzhund than FR. SchH is more of a team effort between handler and dog than FR, that is a lot of the dog on its own, but that is a whole other topic. When this OB is added is when I would use a prong if I had to. Most of our young dogs get a prong collar at 8-9 months of age, but no leash is ever attached to it. Its' just to decondition them to the collar being there so if it is ever needed, its not something new to them.

anyway, 9 times out of 10 when you take that dog from ob away from the field and OB to the field with a decoy, and you want to heel, the second you start moving the dog will break its heel position and break for the handler. It happens almost every single time, and if it doesn't happen the first time, it will happen the second. Simple question, what happens at that moment? The dog will hit the end of the leash right? Do you think the dog learns something in that moment? I sure do. It doesn't take very long for a dog to learn that when it heels correctly, it gets released to bite, when it breaks on its own, there's a consquence that isn't very pleasant.

In a case that just happened last sunday a club member was dragged like a bucked bronco rider and crushed her wrist as well. Some dogs don't care what's holding them back, they're going to get that bite. Sometimes a prong is a necessary safety measure, for the handler and the helper (decoy)

Sometimes a prong is used for drive work. As a dog moves futher along the must switch between prey and defense drives. A prong is an absolutely wonderul tool for that exercise. Basically when the helper is making prey movements the the dog is being held by the flat collar, when the helper turns and makes frontal pressure, the prong is used, adding discomfort, that seemingly comes from the helper and will help switch between drives and intensify that drive. you may not see a need for it as a general dog owner, but that doesn't mean that the need doesn't exist.

My personal dog wears a prong collar when we train, I rarely have to use it, but I do. I miss points during our OB routine, it happens, i'm not perfect and neither is she, but one thing is consistent and that's the comments on our relationship. Whether it's from the judge, the interpreter, crowd members, or just playing in the park. Yes, using a prong can hurt your relationship, if you abuse it, same as giving your dog free access to everything will result in a dog that could care less if you are in its life or not, again,not what I would term a good relationship. That's why I always say there is balance. Dogs MUST learn consequence. Its' hardwired for them to do so. I can't tell you if turning your back on the dog is consequence enough or if a good yank on the prong collar is.

and I've seen a good number of very good bully breeds doing schH and FR. Granted GSD's and Mal's seem to rule, but bully's are great dogs. If they didn't have the rep that they do I would probably have some. the main reason I don't is "if" and accident were to happen and someone got bit, it would get blown up astronomically becaues #1 because of its rep, and #2 because it was bite trained. But that's my decision for me personally, I won't judge someone else's, because other than that they are very loyal, bidable, athletic, have great drive etc. Everything you need to be,IMO, a complete dog. The best GSD's aren't bred to be human aggressive either, nor are Mal's. The ones that are, aren't the finest specimen's of the breed and should not be doing this sport.

anyway there were other points I wanted to make, but I can't remember them right now, oh well.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

First off, there is a difference between a dog biting a bite suit and a person walking down the street so it does not matter what kind of dog you own. German Shepherds also have a not so great reputation sometimes. Should we tell all the schutz people they shouldn't be using them?

I asked about the prong the day I started with him. I now know how I feel about them. Adversion or not, they work. They work for me and Magnus anyways.

Im not saying everyone should go out and buy one and use them they are not for everyone.

I think it is great that some of you use other methods of training. Please continue to do so.

This is what works for Magnus. He was trained in this sort of manner once before and this is what he responds to. If it takes a prong, that is what I will use.

I would rather inflict a bit of discomfort or "pain" on him to get him where he needs to be rather than having an out of control dog.

I keep hearing everyone say "well you never ran to the end of a leash with the collar on". Well neither did Magnus.

And just a bit about the no pull harness, I tried it.....he pulled.

 

[RD]

Oh I understand that there's a huge difference. It's just the way that the pitbull haters would percieve it, y'know? They don't understand that Magnus isn't trying to KILL the decoy when he grabs a mouthful of bite suit. All they see is a dog attacking someone on command. The same goes for GSDs and Malinois, but come on. Few people have the fear of shepherds that they do of Pitbulls.

As for the prong collar.. Well you have your heart set on it. I'm sorry you are incapable of teaching your dog a basic down command without inflicting pain on him.

Whatz, thanks for the explanation. Sounds interesting.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

No, to me there is not a big difference. A dog is a dog is a dog. It is not like I am going to go around and show off Magnus biting a bite suit to everyone and anyone.

I am not incapable of training him without the collar. Yes, I did need it for the down command, and doesn't anymore, and yes, he responds much better with the collar around his neck. That is also what my trainers suggested using for him. The don't suggest it for everyone, so don't come down on them. There is a 5 month old American Staffordshire Terrier that comes out with me every weekend. They don't suggest they use one on her because she is young and therefore doesn't really need any correction.

Again. Like I said before you are all stuck on how there are better training methods, or methods that work for you, and I already said that if that is what works for you then great! But this works for him and there are much much worse things that a person could do than put on a prong collar IMO.

 

[RD]

I agree, in the long run you need to do what works. I was just puzzled why the kind of training that works for every dog wouldn't work for Magnus, and why a pinch collar was necessary instead of some remedial training using reward-based methods, and later implimenting a correction after you know that the dog has a grasp on what's expected of him. It's okay if you don't want to train that way, it's your dog and your choice. I hope you didn't assume I was trying to tell you how to train. I guess I'm just confused about the whole situation and why this approach is being taken when there are more effective (not FAST, but effective) methods that will give you the same result without the pinch collar. But, those take more time and effort than a tug on the collar. Different strokes, I guess. Good luck to you!

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I agree, in the long run you need to do what works. I was just puzzled why the kind of training that works for every dog wouldn't work for Magnus, and why a pinch collar was necessary instead of some remedial training using reward-based methods, and later implimenting a correction after you know that the dog has a grasp on what's expected of him. It's okay if you don't want to train that way, it's your dog and your choice. I hope you didn't assume I was trying to tell you how to train. I guess I'm just confused about the whole situation and why this approach is being taken when there are more effective (not FAST, but effective) methods that will give you the same result without the pinch collar. But, those take more time and effort than a tug on the collar. Different strokes, I guess. Good luck to you!

Not every dog is responsive to reward based methods. Or maybe every dog but Magnus is. We have been trying for a year that way with no success.

No, I didn't assume that you were trying to tell me HOW to train. No worries.

Also, I want everyone to understand that I do not tug on the collar and he does not run to the end of the leash with it on. I only used slight, gentle pressure, which is completely different than tugging on it. I can understand how it would hurt them if you were popping or tugging on it. This is why I say that it is not hurting him but only uncomfortable.

 

[otch1]

Hi Bulli. I see a lot of my original response to you being repeated in others posts. Unlikely this issue will be resolved. While the use of a prong collar for FR sport will be determined by your own trainer, my advise again is to really educate yourself on this sport and the equipment used. Make sure you're comfortable with your trainers level of expertise. Trust your instincts if you see that this type of training has an adverse effect on your dog. As I've stated, not all dogs were meant to participate and I have dealt with these dogs after they've "flunked". You not being able to achieve a "down" without the prong is telling you something about your dogs' temperament. That is why I gave you accurate info about prongs, discomfort verses pain, what can happen, ect. This shouldn't be about doing this type of sport or not, using certain equipment or not. It's about knowing what effect this sport and certain equipment has on some dogs, and educating yourself before participating. Competition obedience training should require the same, if not more precise level of accuracy that FR sport and Schutzhund training do. So, don't rely on your equipment to achieve this, do your "homework". I'd like to see those pictures, a month from now, of your dog doing some pretty impressive heelwork, sits and downs! Good luck!