Pinch/Prong Collars?

BECAUSE IT CAUSES PAIN - and that pain is the consequence. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make.

Right. And you tugging on it a bit with a limited amount of distance between the collar and your hand, and a dog hitting the end of a six foot leash is the same. You could not have tugged very hard if you didn't feel pain - either that, or you have a pretty insensitive neck.

You know, I'm really interested in the exact technique you used with a prong collar to teach a DOWN. For your dog to never do a down before and yet in just a short time with a prong collar you got him to do a down, it seems to me that it must have been a pretty high aversive in order for him to connect the severity of the consequence with doing a down every time now.

Yes, I could teach a dog to do a down with a prong collar, if I didn't care if I hurt the dog doing it. In all the hundreds - I'd say thousands by now - of dogs that I've either taught privately or through classes, not one of those dogs couldn't be taught a down using methods other than aversive. NOT ONE.


Well, I'm sorry you failed and I'm sorry your trainers were so inept they couldn't teach your dog a simple down. I'm also sorry that you can't teach control without it. Does this mean that for the rest of your dog's life it will have to wear a prong collar for "control"? Do they allow prong collars in competition in ringsport?

Fear and pain are powerful motivators, yes. Please explain in detail how the collar helped teach him to down.

What else did you do when you brought out that collar that could be associated with your dog's excitement? Is this the ONLY thing your dog has ever been excited about? (be honest) Was there a leash? Was the collar in an area where you normally get his leash or go to prior to taking the dog out? You are CHOOSING to believe that the collar - a collar that creates pain in order to control - is now, after wearing it for one hour, something your dog is gleeful about. Do you realize how ridiculous that really sounds? There's more to the story, but you've decided to give all the credit to this collar.

You know, when you first started this thread you asked people's opinions on the prong collar. And then you've gone on to make all sorts of reasons and excuses as to why you use it. If you've chosen to use it, that's your right. Just don't fool yourself into believing that the collar is a kind method, and that it doesn't cause pain. As I keep saying - if it didn't cause pain, it would be no more effective than a martingale collar. And while you may think that I'm wrong just because you say your dog has "learned" a behavior quickly that can now be done without the collar, the reality is that the vast majority of people who start using a prong collar come to rely on it, and the training that is needed in order to have a responsive dog without the collar just plain never happens.

To me, a prong collar is something that IF used is used sparingly and only in order to provide a behavior that can then be reinforced until it becomes a habit without the collar.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I don't know how I missed that the prong was used to teach the down.

I'm sure I could go on about how I've *heard* about why/how prongs are used, but I won't because it's pointless. So you all can stop plugging your ears now LOL

Very good post Melanie.

I'm sorry but I tried it around my thigh years ago and then again as a demo in class recently to show why I no longer allow them in class and I ended up with some impressive brusing. I have to add that the force that I used to inflict the bruises was no where near the force usually experienced by a dog hitting the end of a leash. Again, why minimize it?

There are basically only two things that change behavior...good things and bad things. Dog works for good things. Dog works to avoid bad things. Both change behavior. Both "work." The trouble with bad things, when they're only a teensy bit bad, those kinds of things don't change behavior...don't tend to change it for the long haul if at all. If it's mild, it's nagging. If there's nothing to avoid, how could it change behavior? And there's nothing so good about it that the dog would work so he could get jabbed in the neck. So, to chage behavior, the bad thing has to be really quite bad. So, if a prong collar changes behavior, because of behavioral law, it has to be pretty darn unpleasant.

Now, take the good things. Dogs work for good things. Behavior changes when good things are added and the dog wants the good thing. This is not with "some" dogs or "some" skills. This is behavioral law. Any organism with a brain constantly, every second works to get good things and works to avoid bad things.

The desire to work for good things is actually stronger and more intense than the desire to work to avoid bad things. Right there you're one step ahead by utilizing this natural and intrinsic drive.

Why would it only work with some dogs? You mean some dogs don't have the instinct to eat, survive and perpetuate the species?

Bad things happen to dogs in the wild....dogs and wolves. Wolves risk their lives taking down a big buck. They may get impaled by an antler. But they take the risk because they have to eat. The desire to eat is stronger than the desire to avoid injury. Dogs get hurt getting jabbed with a stick or branch out in the woods and learn to be more careful to avoid them next time. They step on a sharp stone or investigate a bee's nest and get stung and perhaps learn what that buzzing sound means to stay clear the next time they hear bees in a hive.

We all know that bad things happen. This is often the argument pro-aversive people fall back on. "It's part of life," the "real" world. I, personally do not want to be the bees that sting my dog. I don't want to be the antler that pokes him or the sharp stick that gouges him. I don't want my dog to see me as the source of his pain. Heck! I don't even want him to be in pain, discomfort, fear, bewilderment...any of that nasty stuff. And dogs have an uncanny way of associating pain with their owners even when it's indirect sometimes, as with shock collars.

They are so tightly associated with us, so in line with us that the available trust that is at our disposal is a phenomenal training tool. For me, that is the numero uno training tool.

When I look at my dogs now compared to the past, I see dogs who are much more engaged with me and therefore better able to learn what I'm teaching them.

I have used a prong collar on Lyric when he was younger, before he was trained when I was forced to walk near a lot of other dogs on leashes. I didn't know about the no pull harness and I wasn't about to use one of those head halter things, especially on a Doberman. They have a propensity to cervical malformations and problems as it is. Plus I just don't like something around the muzzle as I feel it's too intrusive to the dog in that vulnerable area. That said, I used a prong until he was trained. It didn't do much but cause him a lot of dandruff from scratching up his skin...looked like snow. Dobermans are known to be especially stoic about pain. He put up with it in order to get his desire...to walk. He didn't get one or two "corrections" and learn anything. He kept trying forever, but I could manage to hang onto him if he thought about lunging toward another dog. I only used it when visiting in Seattle. He was fine in classes here with other dogs. Just the casual walks where there were tons of other dogs.

Why did it hold him back and a flat collar didn't? (He pulled me prone one time on a flat collar right into the dirt. Boy was I embarrassed.) It had to be a good thing or a bad thing remember. Reward or aversive? Which was it? Reward you say? Good thing? Did I hear right? LOL. Yes, Lyric loves his prong collar. He wishes I'd use it again. It reminds him of his mother biting his neck and that brings him many happy memories of Mom, brothers and sisters. Many fond memories. He loves it when I get out his flat leather collar too when we're about to go on a walk. He prances around and wags his tail, just like he did with his prong collar. He does the same thing if I get out the nylon collar! Or if I don't get any collar and put my tennis shoes and coat on, he dances around too! Can you believe it?

Just so you know, Lyric is a big Doberman, solid muscle and he still envisions himself being on a team in the Ididerod. He dreams about it at night. He was good when he was quite young, a real protege....he could have run circles around some of those Huskies. (no offence Husky people)

What worked best: I found out what he likes and needs. I asked him, "Do you want to live?" Good, then we aren't taking one step if I feel the slightest tension in this leash. Not one step. In fact, we are going back 20 ft and walking the same boring path all over again...no new smells, no new sights. Same old, same old. So, I held back the good stuff.....the forward motion. (yes, I took away the good thing) He may have been strong, but I was stronger. I could stop and stand still easily. If he took two steps that were reasonable, he got to eat, two more steps, more goodies. I practiced him in low distraction areas a lot and I reinforced FREQUENTLY. He didn't have that strong of a desire to walk anywhere in particular in my own yard. He developed neuro pathways in his brain that sent the message that it works better to walk right. Pretty soon, that was habit. (pretty much) Eh-hem....he still needs practice in high distraction areas like Seattle when I go visit. We don't practice enough lately. He's got a rather free spirit and sort of his own life style (lol, j/k) and is the King of off leash hiking.

So, I have used a prong collar but if I had to do it over again, I'd try one of those no pull harnesses, those special ones which are designed differently than a regular one which causes them to pull against. It may not be excruciating pain. But it teaches avoidance, something I try to leave out of my training repertoire if at all possible. I want my dog working toward something, momentum....not thinking about how to avoid something. That, I think slows him down. Oh well, that's my experience with the prong.

I'm not going to deny that a prong collar causes discomfort, because I'm sure it does. If it didn't, a dog would have no more reason to obey than they would with any other collar. There was a post about three pages back (that I don't feel like searching for at the moment, by IliamnasQuest I believe), but it was an excellent post.

I use the prong about once every other week, maybe once every week now and then. Maybe not that often, as I'm not really sure where it even is at the moment. I don't even think I get the most control with one. I seem to have the most control with a tiny nylon show lead. And hey, they look a lot nicer than a prong, too!

As for using a prong to teach down, I was able to very easily teach Rumor that "naked." Due to a lack of time and dedication to training on my part she isn't totally reliable with all commands, but she is beyond enthusiastic.

I remember years ago I asked two trainers how to teach a dog not to pull on leash. They both suggested a gentle leader. Not exactly the answer I was looking for...

I'm almost certain that Rumor dreams of the same thing.

Wow, its amazing how it went from me asking how people thought to me getting bashed for using it. And I used the prong collar to teach down by turning it around so the prongs were on the top of the neck and GENTLY pulled down. I have tried eveything else to get him to do it and it never ever worked. When he feels the pressure on the back of his neck he automatically went down to avoid it. Same as teaching them not to pull only backwards. If you all think that is mean then so be it.

Oh here we go again with that word, "bashing." Come on. Can't people even discuss their opinions about something without being "bashed?" ROFLOL!!!

My intention was not to bash you at all and I stayed out of this thread until I saw people minimizing what a prong actually feels like. If you want to feel bashing, walk in my shoes for a while.

Did you try capturing a down with a (reward marker) a clicker or a YES? This is a very effective method for those dogs who resist a lure or other touch free methods.
I don't touch train at all, not because I think that its mean, simply because it stops the thought process that I love to watch a dog go through. When I add my touch when teaching behaviors such as down I'm not allowing the dog to think and I feel that it slows things down and adds unnecessary steps.

There are always dogs in class who learn down a little more slowly or at least require a some creativity on the training end but I would never use a corrective collar to "help" a dog achieve a down. Like Melanie said and I have to add a big SAME HERE.... I have never met a dog that I couldn't teach a down to without using pain or even touch.

Trust me, I am NOT causing him any pain with the collar. If I was or thought I was I wouldn't be using it.

Answered it already

Ok, you got me, I am a horrible person that hurts my dog for my own good. Give me a break.

Neither me or my trainers are "inept" thank you. You have never met my dog nor do you know what a knothead he is. Not only that, I wasn't only talking about down. I am talking about everything that he is being trained for.

Again, I already answered this. I am sorry that the training methods I use are not suited to you.

It was his second time on the collar. He already had his leash on. It was a new environment. He had been standing there on the leash for a good half hour already with everyone that had been there the day before. Nothing else. If you chose to believe that a dog cannot like something like that so be it.

Again. Did I once say that this was going to be a forever thing? NO!
What is more unkind, putting him in some discomfort for a few minutes a day until he learns what he needs to or leaving him locked up in the house because I can't talk him with me anywhere, or do anything with him???

I agree with prong/pinch collars, if and only if the person uses them correctly. To be honest, I am tired of seeing dogs running around with them not in the proper position, or even worse, running around with no leash on, with these collars on them, serving as main collars.

Bashing probably wasn't the right word....b***hed at more like it.

I can understand that, but I do not have all day to sit there and watch to see when he lays down.

I hope you all can understand that I am trying to do this to make things better for him. I want to be able to do things with him but can't at this time I can't, he way too wild 99.9% of the time.

Also I do try training him after he is wound down and we are by ourselves. It still doesn't work.

Don't feel bashed. I don't think anyone means to bash you. We're just discussing our views of prong collars. Some people feel they're OK and some don't. That's the way it is with just about any topic. So, don't take it personally.

I for one, doubt that you're abusing your dog for heaven's sake. But I, like Dr2little can't imagine having to pull a dog down into a down position with force of any kind. There are lots of alternatives which enable the dog to use his own noggin a little more and that makes training go better and faster in the long haul....in other things. They get smarter when they exercise their brains.

She's talking about capturing. If your dog happens to go lie down on his own because he's tired, all you have to do is toss him a yummy treat and praise him. Another time when he does the same thing, do it again. Then start adding your cue, "down." Then you can even try luring him into position again with your cue word and a treat. Even if he doesn't go all the way into the down, but just part way, you can click and treat or use a marker word, "yesssss!" and treat. Then next time see if he'll go just a little closer to the down position. It really doesn't take that much longer and the benefit is that the dog is less confused by being pulled down into the down. There are even some dogs who may object to that force and become defensive because they don't know what you're trying to do. It worked for you and that's fine. We're just sharing some other ideas too.

Another problem sometimes with pushing and pulling is the dog tends to go against pressure. It's called the opposition reflex. So when force is used (it's not about being mean) it tends to work against you in many situations. So, to learn to train by relying on touching and forcing, pulling, pushing is not as effective IMO as learing to train using less touchy methods and by letting the dog share in the lesson. The dog actually becomes more engaged in his training. There are ways to get his attention, to eliminate his wandering mind and to make him motivated to try. Sometimes people just don't know all the little secrets. But you can find out.

This can be an interesting discussion. But don't think anyones trying to bash or insult you. That just isn't true.

I haven't seen anyone bashing you for using it - we're all offering our opinions, and some are not what you may want to hear. But that doesn't mean it's bashing.

As I've said over and over, I've used the collars. I just always keep in mind WHY they work, and that helps me to avoid over-using them. Most people I've seen who use a prong collar end up over-using it.

Your description of the use of the prong collar shows that your dog laid down to avoid the aversive feeling of the prongs on the back of his neck. Why would he have done that if it had not caused a feeling (pain/discomfort) that he wanted to avoid? If it had felt fine, it wouldn't have worked any different than any other collar. You say you "GENTLY pulled" - if he was so willing to do a behavior that you indicate he was not willing to do under any other training circumstances with just a gentle pull of the prong collar, then I would say that he is very sensitive and the collar definitely will cause him quite a bit of pain if he hits it very hard.

As I've said previously, the collar IS effective. Pain IS effective as an aversive. Aversives ARE effective in training. If you choose to use an aversive, then please just acknowledge the reason it works and don't pretend otherwise. I don't like using aversive methods in training but I do use them on occasion. I know what it does to my dogs and I take the risk of compromising their trust in me because - for whatever reason - I have chosen to use the aversive (sometimes it's simply because it's easier and quicker .. lousy reason, but I'm honest about it). I'm not trying to guilt anyone into never using corrections. Just be aware of what you're doing and don't make the corrections a basis for your training or used instead of training. You will have a much better relationship with your dog if you keep aversives at a minimum.

I wish I could train with zero aversives, but I haven't quite been able to do that. I admire those who aspire to do so, however, and I recognize the level of interaction and knowledge it takes to be a successful trainer sans corrective methods.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Thanks, I understand what you all are saying and thank you for your suggestions, but I have tried all that stuff and nothing worked for down. I had to use the collar for that a few times and now he doesn't need it anymore. And down is a command he HAS to know for FR. Mission accomplished.......finally! I am still going to continue to use it for FR though.

IliamnasQuest, I am not going to say that it is uncomfortable to the dog, but I will not admit that it is painful. And like I said I used it to get him to do it and it worked and I do not need it for that anymore.

Edited to add:

Not only that but for the down command, I would rather have the prongs on the back of my neck than the front anyways.

See, this is what frustrates me a bit. If it doesn't cause any pain, why does it work any better than a martingale? A martingale would also put pressure around the dog's neck. What IS it about a prong collar that makes it work if it isn't pain?

I've never called you a horrible person. I've said I've used and still use aversives at times. I just acknowledge WHY they work.

I never called you inept. You said you failed, I said I was sorry you failed. I did call your trainers inept though - training a down is not that hard, and your dog melting into a down with a "GENTLE pull" of the prong collar indicates that your dog isn't really that tough. A trainer - and by that, I was thinking "person paid for teaching others to train their dogs" - should be able to get a dog into a down without the use of aversives. Those who can't I do find inept.

I never said you were going to use it as a forever thing - I said the majority of people I've seen use a prong collar DO end up using it regularly. I encouraged you not to use it any more than absolutely necessary for a variety of reasons. I just think people should be honest with WHY the collar works when their attempts with a flat collar don't. It's probably much easier for you to deal with him when he doesn't want to pull on something that creates a painful situation. It's a very handy tool. But it's also something you CHOOSE to use and you do need to be aware of WHY it works, and never become complacent with its use. I don't think you're a horrible person because of it. YOu asked opinions, I gave mine, you responded, I responded, etc.

I will admit that it disturbs me when people want to excuse what they're doing and don't want to admit to use of something painful. I've used a shock collar on my young chow and I know that it's downright uncomfortable (having put it on myself at the same levels) and - yes - even painful. I carefully balanced the reasons why I thought I should use it over what it did to her, and I chose to use it. And although she gets bouncy when I get it out, I'm certainly not going to think "oh, she LOVES to be SHOCKED" .. *L* .. because what she loves is getting to run and play freely off-leash. Without the shock collar, she would choose to chase moose and zoom off to explore the vast outdoors. I spent a long time working on off-leash recalls with her and while actively under command she has never failed a recall. But running and playing freely meant - to her - that she could take off on occasion. With her, I felt that the running/playing was important enough to warrant using an aversive to stop her from the danger of running off or chasing a moose.

The point I'm making with all of that is that I acknowledged what I was doing and what the collar did to her. With that knowledge, I made a choice. I didn't ever try to pretend that I wasn't creating pain. If a person is going to use corrective methods that involve pain, just be honest with it. That very honesty will help keep you from becoming dependent on pain as a frequent training tool.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska