Tucker bit my dad

If he'd actually bitten and attacked, I may agree with the comparison. He snapped. He didn't even puncture. I'd compare it more to when someone is trying to drag me (verbally) away from something I'm in the middle of and I snap back "Just a minute!"

Do I agree that this dog should be allowed to snap, growl or bite when he is forced to move? Of course not. But the question of whether or not it is okay isn't the issue now; the question is, how do you fix it? The behaviorist, as you mentioned, is the ideal answer in my mind, but we know financially it isn't an option based on the information given. So to me, it becomes "how can I make this dog like being moved physically?" Answer - make it a game.

Right, I have much higher expectations of my dogs than many others do of theirs. However, I wouldn't tolerate HA from ANY breed. That's just me though. I know many people that live with dogs that they're afraid will bite them.. a friend of mine has a Lab that has bitten her (and bit her GOOD, bruises and all) twice so far, completely unprovoked (as in, she was standing in the yard while he was playing, he stopped, ran and grabbed her arm). But she "doesn't want to give up on him". Psh. That dog would've been on the way to the vet to be PTS after the first bite.

If you can train dogs to enjoy having their nails clipped, by all means you can teach them to be ok with being picked up. Especially a dog that likes being cuddled.

Sounds to me that the problem isn't so much picking him up, as picking him up when he doesn't want to be picked up. Which could be a resource guarding issue, or just a leadership issue.

Here's what I'd suggest:

1. Vet visit to rule out physical problems.

2. VERY STRICT NILIF protocol. This is probably a good candidate dog for the "Ruff Love" protocol we were debating about the other day.

3. Preventing problems from happening by VERY STRICT management.

4. Desensetizing him to being handled - picking him up, pulling him by the collar, etc.


Of course if your parents aren't going to follow through with this training, then you'll have to get a lot more creative. This is where a personal trainer/behaviorist would come in handy.

One VERY IMPORTANT lesson I've learned over the years as a trainer is that no matter how good your methods are, no matter how good your results are, if the client is not going to follow through and do what you're suggesting, you're wasting your time. Trainers say that training dogs is easy, training people is the hard part; THIS is the exact situation they're talking about.

If your parents were my clients and they were acting the way you're describing, for starters I'd probably fire them and tell them to find a new trainer. But if that weren't an option, I'd have to get really creative to figure out how to work together with them and their dog to make all their lives easier.

First of all, if they're having trouble remembering your cue words, just change your cues to words that they'll remember and actually use. If the dog is on the couch and the parents want him off, and they want to use the word "down," then by all means LET THEM. It's better than them getting frustrated and yelling at the dog, pushing him off, beating him, etc.! Dogs CAN learn that the same word means two different things, so you CAN teach him that "down" means to get off he couch or to lay down on the floor. Just don't EVER practice "lay down" on the couch, and he'll figure out the context of the cue. Yes it's confusing to the dog and yes it does take longer to train, BUT it's better than the alternative. OR you can teach him to respond to a hand signal to get off the couch, such as pointing at the floor; watch your parents and see what gestures they do when they're trying to get him off the couch, and turn that into a hand signal.

If they won't carry treats in their pockets, figure out a different way to make treats readily accessible. Tupperware containers of treats throughout the house, treat bags they can wear, etc. Or teach them to carry small toys in their pockets instead of treats if they'll remember to do that.

If they ABSOLUTELY MUST do punishment with the dog, you can teach them more appropriate punishment methods. Water bottles and shake cans can be used appropriately with the right dogs, so you could experiment with them. Sounds to me like Tucker would probably prefer a squirt of water to being picked up, and if done correctly he wouldn't associate the punishment with your parents.

Yes, it stinks that you have to resort to this, BUT if you went back to school today I would wager Tucker would bite one of your parents within the first month. And the bites will get worse. How many bites are they going to tolerate before they decide to do something else with him? You have to give them tools that THEY will use, and it sounds like you just haven't found those yet.

The Lab you just described, Kady, DOES sound like his elevator's not going all the way to the top

I expect a lot from mine as well -- remember, I'm the fool who made the desperation throw of sticking her arm in between two bitches hell-bent on each other to stop the fight

My first Terrier, Mickey, a Toy Fox . . . now Mickey would bite you, but not without a good reason and not without warning. The few times it happened were mostly when she was very young, though, with the exception of biting my sister when she grabbed her by the collar and started dragging her away from the door to the room where Grandaddy (who was Mickey's One True Obsession) was taking a nap.

And then there were the times she bit the Jehovah's witnesses who opened the door and tried to come in even after my mom had told them NOT to, lol.

With her it was a case of recognizing that there was a meeting point of according respect to her wishes and what we expected her to do. Once that got sorted out it wasn't an issue anymore. Sometimes we expect far more of our dogs in the way of tolerance than even we are capable of showing.

Tucker -- if there isn't an underlying pain issue -- sounds to me like he might be responding to underlying tensions and uncertainties (dealing with unemployment will surely create them!). I'm wondering if something like the Click to Calm protocols or NILIF would help get him back on track?

I think you need to start reading the content of the posts before you go attaching YOUR emotions to what is being said.

I don't recall anywhere saying I would tolerate a dog biting me. Not sure how you inferred that from my posts. What I said was that picking a dog up is not the only way to get the dog from point A to point B. Would my great danes tolerate me picking them up? Frankly, I'm quite sure they would, but unless you're offering to pay my chiropractic bill, I don't think I'll demonstrate okay?

My dogs tolerate me doing things they don't like because they TRUST me. This dog seems to be lacking in that department, so why are we talking about continuing to do something that is clearly counter productive to building trust?
If the dog is growling and biting then obviously he does not like being picked up. I'm not sure how that turns in to humanizing or anthropomorphisizing? Or maybe your dogs communicate differently?

Do you really think that dogs don't have feelings and preferences? There is anthropomorphizing, and then there is acknowledging that dogs are more than mindless automatons. Of course a dog can prefer to not be moved from a place that it wants to be. I'm sure much simpler creatures can, too.

Of course growling and nipping should not be tolerated, but when it is present, manhandling the dog isn't the way to make the situation better. One must find the source of the behavior and work outward. Don't wait until the levies burst before dealing with the flooding.

No, it doesn't. Dog is screwed up. He was in Piper's puppy class and even then I could tell something wasn't "right" with him. Sad because the owner is literally terrified of him. She told me "he looks at me with this anger in his eyes".. um, no way I would live with that!

I don't recall directly quoting your post or singling you out I was talking in general, there were a couple people who suggested just not picking the dog up anymore. IMO, you should be able to do whatever you want to your dog without being worried that it'll bite, growl, whatever. Shoot, my cats let me pick them up and carry them around, a small dog should tolerate it too!

No, I didn't say that. Of course they have feelings and preferences. Piper doesn't really like to have her nails dremeled. But you know what? Oh well, too bad, so sad, they're getting dremeled every 5 days whether she likes it or not. I don't allow my dogs to "tell" me what they want to do in that aspect.

You didn't answer my question Why pick the dog up when it is eroding trust AND you can accomplish what you need without picking the dog up?
I do. In fact I encourage communication. I would much rather a dog growl at one of my kids than bite them. A growl tells me there is something wrong that I need to go investigate. A growl tells me something is amiss. A growl is information my dogs give me. A growl doesn't scare me in the least and is often much appreciated.
But what do I know

I agree 100%. I should be able to manhandle my dog (gently, mind you) and he should not growl or bite me. I have a large breed dog and I pick him up all the time, if he ever started to growl/snap/bite me for it it would be completely unacceptable and I wouldn't just write it off as "Oh, you just don't want me to do that." These are companion animals that are domesticated, not wolves that we need to tip toe around so it doesn't correct us for doing something they find offensive. It's a liability.

Good luck with Tucker, OP. I don't have any training advice but I can understand where you're coming from.

I guess I'm not seeing where I (or anyone) is writing off the bite or is tiptoeing around their dog.
Wanting to understand the cause of a behavior, addressing the cause of a behavior instead of the behavior itself is not tip toeing around a dog, its actually a very effective long term way to deal with behavioral problems.

People were not suggesting that the dog never be picked up again. The point that you seem to be missing is that the dog HAS issues and needs to be desensitized to the things he doesn't like and build trust through training. Which has been stated repeatedly in this thread. Only a fool forces a dog (or a horse for that matter) that has trust issues, isn't trained properly and takes a 'you will or must do as I say attitude'. That attitude will work with some but typically not with the severe cases. Sad part of that is dogs with issues in those kinds of hands do end up pts and with a understanding of behavior and training it could have been avoided.
So you pick up your cat? really, a house or barn cat that is domesticated? Ever tired to pick up a cat with issues?? lmao, they tend to not be tolernate of it until somebody teaches them that it is ok.

No, I understand that. Obviously flooding Tucker with manhandling is not going to make him like it regardless of anyones opinion of what he should tolerate and like. However, some of the posts just hint to "Why is it a problem if he doesn't like being picked up? Just don't pick him up. You don't need to." Which is bananas.

I pretty much agree. I don't like when people write off things like resource guarding or human aggression with "well, YOU wouldn't want your food messed with, either!" Now, obviously, it's not cool to be all up in your dogs face with your hands in his bowl EVERY time he eats or something. But, IMO, a person SHOULD be able to put a hand in their bowl without the fear of being bit or attacked, etc.

I think it's so important. I honestly can't fathom Jackson ever growling at me no matter what I did to him. If he did, I'd be pretty certain there was a medical condition going on with him. I am not sure if I could have a dog that I was unsure if he was going to bite me personally. I think, maybe if I was living on my own, I could deal with it. But I live with young children and am often around them, so it wouldn't be possible for me to deal with the possibility of my dog attacking a kid that accidentally got near their food or something. But I don't think I'd put a dog to sleep either of course, depending on how severe HA or RG was.

Anyways I like a lot of the tips you got here for Tucker. Turn picking up into a game, etc. Here was a video I saw about something similar:

Dog Training Tip of the Day- Gotcha! - YouTube
Teach 'jump up' to a little dog- clicker training - YouTube

I'm truly thankful I am not a dog and owne by someone whom I can only akin to a caveman who refuses to better themselves and their relationship with dogs through science and love.

The best line thus far is that only a fool forces an animal, domestic or elsewise, with known issues.

OP, please take care to follow the positive understanding information shared here that is based on conditioning methods.

Because dogs should be able to be picked up without growling or biting if that's what their owner wants to do to them, IMO. You'll notice in my first post, I suggested a vet visit first, then a behaviorist. It's not like I jumped the gun and said "Put the dog down".

Growls don't scare me either. Seeing as I photograph shelter dogs, some which come in from hoarding cases, etc., I've heard plenty of growls. I'm well aware they're a warning sign. However, would I own a dog that constantly growled & tried to bite at me for trying to do a simple behavior? No. But that's my opinion. Like I said, I know numerous people who have dogs that do this (like the Lab I mentioned) and they still keep them around, terrified of their own "companion". It's ludicrous to me.

But no one here is saying, oh, the dog is growling, just let him be. What I see is the dog is growling and trying to tell you something. UNTIL you have worked out what that is, or desensitized the dog to being picked up, stop doing it. It is a short term management situation, not a long term plan.

That's how I'm reading the advice, too.

Oooohhhh... gotcha. They will submit to your superior will. Got it.

I don't operate that way and I'm okay with that. I learned a long time ago that control, no matter how strict, is ALWAYS an illusion. Animals (and children) ALWAYS have free will. Knowing this, I choose cooperation over control.

This "my dog WILL let me pick him up" has me thinking about my daughter (8) and her agility class. Ever try to fit a 33 inch great dane through a 24 inch tunnel? Picking her up isn't practical when the handler is 8 years old and literally half her size. Pulling her through doesn't work - unless you plan on coating the inside of the tunnel with crisco, and making a slip and slide out of it.

Yet that great dane with her kid handler is more willing to do a tunnel than many of the other little dogs in class with their adult/experienced handlers. Who the heck cares if the great dane "tolerates" being picked up or not? She will army crawl through a pointless agility tunnel just because an 8 year old who she TRUSTS asks her to.
That's my point. I will not deal with my dogs from the perspective of "I am human you will mind" because that is far too limiting for me. Yet when we build a bond based on mutual respect, trust, and cooperation, the sky is the limit

I kind of got lost in all the squabbling, so I apologize if someone has already said this.

First- this sounds like a dog that should lose furniture priviledges, at least for the time being.

Second- my understanding is Tucker doesn't like being crated at night because he "feels" like he's missing something downstairs. I'd move his crate downstairs, then, at least for the time being.

The leash suggestion is a very good one.