would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

I have a DA dog... to a lesser degree than what is being discussed here. We have done LOADS of positive reinforcement training to teach her appropriate behaviors when faced with situations that make her lose her brain.

I've successfully taught default behaviors to racing after dogs like a snarling mennace.

She knows her job, and does it well... we still practice it a lot, and it is reinforced heavily. I even feel confident enough to enter her in obedience, where she is doing sit stays and down stays with other dogs nearby.

If she is uncomfortable, she will leave. Her default behavior is front position with eye contact. She has successfully held that position while idiot John Q Public let his dog sniff mine. She held her front with eye contact even though her reaction would have been to tear into that dog without training.

She is not perfect, but I do know that she is VERY good about ignoring other dogs.

I take a lot of precautions so that she does NOT injure other dogs, and we do a LOT of training so that she can be part of everything we do. I also know her limits and don't take her to shows where crating space is limited and she will be very close to dogs all day. It is not fair to her, or the other dogs there.

I agree!! Very well said.

I do hold my dogs to a high standard. I also do allow them to sniff on walks.

Zoom, I don't think anyone would disagree that many people need and should train their dogs to a higher standard. One of my pet peeves as an instructor is students that have the attitude of 'It's good enough'.
What has rankled me about this thread is being lumped into that lot because I have WORKING Jrts, that just may kill a cat especially from people (more than one) that has no clue to how a working terrier is hard wired and they are just not implying but stating that we are not 'investing' enough time in training our dogs. That is offensive and personal, because I'll put my dog up against anyones on any day for how well trained his is.
I will still stand by what I said in an earlier post, you can not compare prey drives between Bird dogs and Terriers especially Terriers that are still bred and worked (because so many breeds of terriers don't have what it takes anymore to be working dogs by conformation and drives). And yes there is aggression, there has to be a certain amount of it for a dog to have enough GUTS to locate, enter and engage quarry in the cold dark earth, follow their nose, be smart enough not to get killed and take on quarry that has teeth and claws that doesn't want it there.......that is now attacking the dog. And not all terriers, even Jrts have what it takes to get the job done.
As of today, I have never heard of a working bird dog be killed by a bird or many of them. Although it is reasonable to expect that a goose or swan could easily drown a dog........wonder how that dog would respond then?
Labra is very lucky I didn't see their posts (don't know how I missed them lol). Labra needs to get educated.

Personally I don't think Smkie holds her dogs to a higher standard. IMO hers is a lower standard. I work with my dogs. I don't expect them to be robots to shut off their drive. I want to channel it. Be that for hunting (which I have yet to do enough of) or agility or Earth dog, or obed... what have you.

If she is worried about a lab vs a sewer rat.. what about a 13 pound JRT against a coon, fox or badger this is what I mean by more prey drive. Yes my dog could get hurt. I know a dog who died jumping off a couch too (I knew the owner/dog personally.. not second hand) life is short.

Just to note, if the farmer does not insist the quarry killed, there are terrier people I know who will relocate the quarry and not kill it. But many farmers want terrier people to come out to rid them of vermin-its more humane than bad shots and poison. The dogs are WORKING dogs. Doing a useful job. There are lots of dogs who do dangerous jobs. Our dogs just happen to need a whole pile of prey drive and tenacity to stay 8 feet underground in a cramped dark hole in the face of flashing teeth waiting for its owner to dig a pipe down.

I would say expecting a dog with those sorts of drives and hunting experience to behave in a group (they are not known for this. THe JRTCA (american JRT club) JRTCC (canadian one) all have warnings on their websites that same sex JRTs should not be kept together. Even 99% of all pro terrier people I know kennel their dogs. Ado and I are the 'weird' ones.) Excel in obed (HITS, 3 CDs and one leg away from a CDX-and I havent' competed in 2 years) excel in agility, excel in Rally O, Race, Lure course, do Go to Ground (one of my dogs-Ado bred her-was reserve national champ in GTG) dock dog stuff... be embassadors of their breed at Pet Shows, the toronto sportsman show, be in commercials, and be great pets who hang around the farm, not chasing horses, being polite to random people who stop in and that hold the blankets down at night.

That to me is a higher standard.

Worthy of repetition. Thanks, Gina.

This is going to sound lame, but you really do have to see her with her dogs to understand what she means. It sounds cold on "paper" the way she trains, but I see very few people who are as "in tune" with their dogs...each night everyone curls up in one happy puppy pile on the bed. I didn't get a picture of this at the mod meet because the lighting was off, but Victor was getting very stressed. He and Ollie don't get along very well and having to keep the level of self-control needed to keep peace in that group was starting to strain him. He climbed into Smkie's lap and leaned back, looking for all the world like a child ready for bed. She understood and took him inside. I went in later and Vic had his paws wrapped around her neck as they both slept.

Watching these two go around the Plaza or at Pets For Life, it's obvious how in tune with each other and how much of a team they truely are. Vic is not a push-button robot by any means. Watching him run around the Valley is proof enough. Don't you all remember all the pictures I've posted of these dogs? But just like a dog that has to control themselves in a huge crowd in order to turn in a clean run, or achieve that obedience title, he knows that he is expected to be a dog/breed ambassador, even if he's not one of the "targeted" breeds. How many people do you know would think of an English Pointer as being a dog that would carry a bucket in a crowd to gather donations? Or be a good therapy dog? Most bird dogs I know are (or at least act) entirely too bird-brained to do something that demanding. I know that she would LOVE to get Vic into agility, but that's just not feasible at this time. Maybe when I get my finances in a little better order and can get Sawyer into agility, I can help them out. The next best thing she can do is allow him his daily off-leash runs with Pepper through the valley, runs with Logan and as much time out in the yard having fun as possible. She lets them be dogs as much as they can be living while living in the city. As much as any of us can allow our dogs to be dogs while living in the city.

In all honesty, again, I know how her training method has come across in this thread, but the bond she has with her dogs makes me jealous. They are a true pack/family. I'm working on it with mine, but we've got a ways to go yet.

I never implied her training was 'cold' or her dogs were robots.

I was a bit put off by the idea I 'wasn't training enough'. My goals are different-and I hate being preached to by someone who is not in my position. I do not tell people how to train their dogs for things I have never done-nor tell them how their dogs should behave if I don't know the breed, or type of work.

If she wants to squash all her dog's natural drives-she can go for it But IMO thats not a higher standard. Why get a retriever if you hate dogs who retrieve, or a herding dog if you hate herding behaviours? If people want to, and then train all vestiges of such behaviour out of their dogs, they can go for it. (i think its weird-but hey its a free world)

So do you imply 'I' don't have a great relationship with my dogs?

I kind of assume most people on chaz have great relationships with their dogs. I have posted pics and vids of my dogs working. I would like to think that the relationship I have is visible (could be wrong-i might be biased) I see pics of ppls dog's where I can tell the relationship they have.

I posted a vid of my DR/DA high drive dog in a VERY busy stimulating environment with lots of dogs and people. She is heeling with a slack leash and total focus and a wagging tail. But 'I' am the one with lower standards? (not saying others can't/don't do it either)

I just get a bit of a feeling that Smkie thinks her training is better than any of ours. And I guess that gets my back up. Unless someone posts pics, or vids or explicit detailed accounts I don't assume to know how well they train. Dogs are individuals and a great trainer could have a difficult dog, or a mediocre trainer can have a fantastic dog. Its hard to tell. Now if one person repeatedly trains dogs to excel then I might make a judgment.

Or a "pit mix" when you don't want do deal with dog aggression?

I'll catch up on this thread when I can, but Smkie's comments have pretty much showed me that she will get whatever the hell she wants and turn it into something completely different. And sad the day will be when her retreiver mix decides to fetch something, her herding mix decides to herd something, and her 'pit mix' decides to act aggressively towards another dog. I guess the dog will be blamed and thrown out to the curb.

Also, let's get off the "pit" bandwagon. I have no idea if you are referring to your armpits or the core of a particular fruit or a hole in your backyard. But there is no such breed as a "pit bull" much less a dog called a "pit."

I just think my dogs have never killed anyone elses' pet or harmed their property in anyway. Maybe i have just been lucky, but i think teaching them to be gentle, not indulging behaviors that tend to make them more aggressive has something to do with it. I am tired of trying to explain where i am coming from. Guess we will see. Pepper is going to learn a great deal and i am going to learn a great deal in the process of teaching her. I take each day as vital for her possible existance in a world that thinks breeds dictate ability to learn. YOU want cat killers you got them, i don't. I am going to do everything in my being including research to see that it never happens on my watch.

VIctor ran free and sniffed and pointed and spent at least 3 hours outside today supervised. He had three walks with me, and no Logan today. Pepper is the new dog in training, and Mary supervises and laffs and reminds us all that we have one more wonderful day with her. To do less would mean i shouldn't have any of them. I state what works for me, and what has worked in the past. Hopefully Pepper has learned to be gentle, she has learned not to tear up her toys, she has learned to follow basic commands, and we need daily reminders for she is a stubborn child. You all break my heart with the attitude that your dog's life is more precious then that of any other dog, but that is how i was raised. To consider all precious, and to be the best gaurdian possible. THat means all life, not just my life. I trained labradors because i believe that if your going to hunt, a dog should be there to lessen the suffering of lost birds. I will not throw live birds. I do not hunt. I don't want to kill anything. I think they are the most wonderful dogs to work with and i like their attitudes. I abhor the thought of dog fights that maim or hurt felines. Maybe i will fail, maybe pepper will become a cat killing dog chasing maniac that slashes dogs into pieces. ACcording to you all it is hard wired in her dna and i should give up right now. BUt i wont, and it won't be without being given every lesson of gentleness i can give her including how to use her mouth softly and control her desires. I am going to give it my best, and set her up as much as humanly possible for success.. It has worked before, i grew up with terriers and they too were not cat killing prey driven machines, It worked at the kennels, so i see no reason that it should not work now. You all can stop talking like i am not here, being discussed in this way is bizarre. I don't need anyone to defend me for i am a big girl and can stand by my own words with my own actions.

People call Labradors ''labs'' and you don't see the Labrador people saying '' my dog is not a scientific room.'' It is just a lazy word for American Pit Bull Terrier.

Anyways, great post.

Sadly this thread has gotten to be more than a little bit snotty, whether it was intended or not or not conveyed as one meant it to be or misunderstood etc.
This has turned very personal for a lot of people including Smkie, so lets forget it and I'll turn off my 'Offended Radar', if everyone else will too and get back to the questions posted, because besides everything else this has been a good thread.

Lynn

Bloody hell, here I am trying to be reasonable and make this post THEN I read what Smkie has posted and there goes the Offended Radar again.
Smkie for all your claims of being around or being raised with terriers you have never once stated after being asked a few times of what breeds????
My gut tells me its going to be something like a bloody Yorkie (which by the way was never bred to be a working dog, no sure how they became called a Terrier.)
I hope you never get a TRUE terrier............for the obvious reasons. I could list why I now know why you should never have them but that goes beyond what I consider to be a civil debate (trust me you don't want me to go there darlin).
Stick to your bird dogs...........your much better suited for them for the obvious reasons.

ummm..

ok wow

have you been listning to ANYTHING I posted?

nvm I can see you haven't. (since you say I want a cat killing dog...)

I have asked honest questions, and been ignored.

Your high and mighty "well my dogs never...." sure neither had my dogs till I owned JRTs. Virtuously saying you have never had a speeding ticket when your car can only go 10 mph is IMO ridiculous. My first JRTs (non working lines) loved every dog and every person (till scary man freaked me out and attacked one). BTW Snip has only killed stray barn cats..not ones that belong to anyone (so no public damage).

I believe all living life is precious. Unfortunately, my dog does not nor will he ever think that.

Problem is, Tahla, it's NOT just a lazy word for APBT. It's become a catch-all that's used by every lame, ignorant, BSL backing fool to encompass and brand anything that remotely resembles an APBT or a Staffordshire Terrier - or any number of other breeds and mixes that have muscular bodies and angular, chiseled heads.

And then there are those poor, strange creatures with overgrown shoulders and bloated heads touted as "Pit Dogs."

I know all of that, but most people just use it as a lazy term. I use it all the time when I am referring to an APBT because I really don't want to say the entire name.

When I am discussing the breed with people who don't understand them, then I say the whole name, but I have no problem saying ''pit bull'' on a forum.

I have a duty, a responsibility to MY dogs. To care for, and provide for them. I agreed to this by signing their adoption and breeder contracts, I agreed to this by accepting them into my heart, to live, forever. I am bound to them, they depend on me. YOUR dogs, however, do not. Your dogs wellness does not depend on me. Therefore, I will care for MY dogs before anyone else's. I will provide food, water, shelter for MY dogs above anyone else's. How you find SHAME in that is beyond me and quite judgmental of you.

Sorry, I shouldn't have been posting while listening to a conference call. I'm in no way implying anything about anyone's relationship with their dogs. I did feel that others were implying that about Smkie's and was attempting to clear that up. But like Smkie said, she doesn't need a defender and I don't like talking for others anyway. But I'm bowing out, because I don't see that I can do anything else in this thread besides get thrown on the "offending" bandwagon.

Is it even being suggested that I should kill my dogs because of what they just might do to a dog that gets in their face? I'll just pretend I didn't see that.

It's all an illusion?









OK, I tried.

You left the thread...twice...

It is not bizarre...to discuss something posted for public erm...discussion.

You need not be present to win...as the saying goes.

Moving on tho,

I agree Lynn...many things aside from the obvious exceptions were interesting...

For my part I have owned DA dogs in times past..and it is always so unexpected the day your "baby" grows up and perhaps does something that while you are prepared for "it" you are not prepared for "how". Akita people get very good at reading their dogs because in general the breed is circumspect and not at all interested in your knowing their thougts or plans LOL.

I vividly recall intro'ing my 4mo old puppy to an adult male at a match and he was to me, being very nice and his owner said "Okay that's enough...he's about to get snarky"..she walked him off and crated him and came back to me and says "I always watch his whiskers...they always come forward when he's had enough." this puppy was my first Akita and I got a bit of a reality check that day. Everyone at the match was so very careful...and watchful...and in time I learned to be that way too. There were no out of control dogs, no raving lunatic dogs...just a lot of very serious, very grown up, dogs. The breed was worth it to me then..and I love them still.

But at this time in life...it's just not a temperament I can handle...and I know it. As I said tho...some folks are working on it...but it's not an easy thing to isolate the how's and why's of genetically...complicated by those that fear it's loss might dilute the breed as a whole. Slow going! It is sometimes a detriment to guarding because it causes distraction, etc. And of course it's a detriment in a companion only breed...which is their primary function.

It's an interesting can of proverbial worms...