would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

[Dekka]

Wow...you act so cool about this. I can't believe anyone is sick enough to let their dog kill cats. If your dog does this it should be leashed or muzzled at all times. Sickening.

As for dog aggressive dogs, why the heck does it have to be so complicated? 16 pages? if your dog is aggressive MUZZLE IT and KEEP IT AWAY FROM OTHER LIVING CREATURES. If you can't do that then maybe you should not own a dangerous animal.

I love how people will place the blame on others and make up any excuse not to call their dog 'aggressive'. If your dog has attacked another dog, it is aggressive. End of.

OMG I just spit coke on my screen. That is the funniest thing I have ever read. Umm no I am not 'cool'. Snip is a work in progress, that is true. He does have a decent call off, but I need to be able to call him off.


Smkie>>

You never answered my question (and I am surprised that you have met field bred labs with as much prey drive. Same with pointers. I am shocked as most field people I know would cull any dog with that much prey drive)

I have dogs that are to go down into tunnels, all alone in the dark in cramped quarters. To independently find the quarry, and mark and engage that quarry. Even if that quarry fights back. (they are not supposed to kill the quarry underground..I doubt they could anyway) A working bred lab or Pointer has generations of breeding 'follow human directions' attributes into them. NO WHERE is this in working terriers. A dog who pops out of the hole to see if 'mom' is still there would not be bred. A dog who backs off the quarry would not be bred. Also JRTs do not live in packs. A pack of JRTs would like self destruct with out lots of training. As a side note feral dogs (ie dogs left to form pack structure or not as they see fit) do NOT form packs, they live in large (hundreds) populations but may hang out with different dogs all the time. In many studies it has been shown that the domestic dog does not pack. They are social creatures, but seem to no form the strong bonds that create packs like many other canines.

So having dogs like that. HOW would you train one that it is ok to go after Raccoons, groundhogs, foxes, etc. But not cats? I DO love cats, and I have cried every time Snip has killed one. The only mercy is, is its a very fast way to go. I would love to know how to teach him not to kill them, but to still be a hunting dog.

I want my dogs to dispatch rats, mice and rabbits. (we are over run with rabbits) It is more humane than traps and poison, and safer too.

I do agree dogs can do more than ppl assume. Dekka-who if we aren't careful will hit the caged rat at the end of a go to ground tunnel (when the idiot running it opened the door before I was ready) hard enough to dent the cage and rip her nose, will call off a rat that lands beside her. But she doesn't have a fraction of the prey drive Snip does.

Other than terriers what breeds of dogs still engage live quarry when working?

 

[Dekka]

If you are using your walks to work and proof obedience, then allowing your dog to wander about sniffing is counter-minding those goals. If you are out for a simple pleasure walk, then by all means, let your dog sniff up a storm. But not every walk every time is a pleasure walk. I'm in the middle of teaching my dogs not only how to walk nicely together, but to ignore squirrels and rabbits as well as other dogs we pass. That's alot going on and if I were allowing them to follow their noses, we'd never get anywhere. I think there is a happy medium to be had, work the first part of the walk and then allow the dog to sniff to their heart's content for the latter half. Or something like that.

It all depends on the level you want your dog trained to, really.

Its simple to do both. I compete in obed, and I let them sniff on walks. You saw my vid of Dekka heeling? I let her sniff on leash. I would not want to go for a long walk with heeling like that. (oh and see my DR/RA dog ignoring all the other dogs around? Even the pug on wheels? Notice her not so much looking at the people when she is working? And no I don't have food on me ) My dog is smart enough to know when its time to work, and when its a pleasure stroll.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

If you are out for a simple pleasure walk, then by all means, let your dog sniff up a storm. But not every walk every time is a pleasure walk.

It all depends on the level you want your dog trained to, really.

No it really doesn't...since not everyone considers a walk a training event as has been discussed. Intimating those people are somehow accepting a "lower level of training" sounds to me...a bit condescending and I hope it wasn't meant that way.

I realize you are perhaps defending a buddy here...but there is no real reason why someone's walks with their dog need have ANYTHING to do with their overall level of training. That is between the dog...and the owner...and can be accomplish in myriad ways having nothing to do with a walk.

But thanks for the permission granted to allow sniffing.

 

[Zoom]

It is simple, but so many people don't. Then again, so many people dont' walk their dogs at all. They hook on a leash and hold on or slap on a prong collar and hold on. I'm amazed at another board at how common place it is for people to begin to have issues on a walk with their dog and the first they're told is to get a prong collar, because the problem will only get worse without one. I think it also depends on how far your walks are...if you're doing a 15 minute walk, that's a good obedience walk. 30 minutes is great for a mixed walk.

I'm not disagreeing here, I'm just trying to point out something.

ETA: HBH, I'm not trying to sound condescending, I'm really not. Again, just trying to point out something. I am trying to defend someone who is getting jumped all over for holding her dogs to a higher standard though.

 

[drmom777]

Big game hounds engage game that won't tree. So do coonhounds, but not as often.

And beagles hunt rabbits, don't they?

 

[HoundedByHounds]

Yes they do...and sometimes they dispatch them if they are too fast LOL.

 

[Dekka]

ok... engages a quarry that fights back and is of similar size. Coons could count depending on the size of the dog. Rabbits don't

 

[drmom777]

What about a mountain lion? There are a number of kennels out west that make their living this way- getting lion for paying hunters. Also bears.

 

[Chewbecca]

ETA: HBH, I'm not trying to sound condescending, I'm really not. Again, just trying to point out something. I am trying to defend someone who is getting jumped all over for holding her dogs to a higher standard though.

But your friend started the comments first. And OBVIOUSLY made those of us with dog aggressive dogs, feel as though we had defend our dogs.

She can hold her dogs to whatever standards she sees fit, but I think it's RIDICULOUS that she places "her" standards onto us in the form of judgement.
And that is how I feel she has contributed in this thread.

 

[Dekka]

It is simple, but so many people don't. Then again, so many people dont' walk their dogs at all. They hook on a leash and hold on or slap on a prong collar and hold on. I'm amazed at another board at how common place it is for people to begin to have issues on a walk with their dog and the first they're told is to get a prong collar, because the problem will only get worse without one.

That is true. I have posted (and been flamed) for saying if you don't have 5 min a day to train your dog (which is all I spend on obed training when I am competing) they have no business owning a dog.

I think I got in trouble once for saying... instead of spending an extra 15 dollars on the latest gadget, spend 15 min. It will be be more productive in the long run.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

But your friend started the comments first. And OBVIOUSLY made those of us with dog aggressive dogs, feel as though we had defend our dogs.

She can hold her dogs to whatever standards she sees fit, but I think it's RIDICULOUS that she places "her" standards onto us in the form of judgement.
And that is how I feel she has contributed in this thread.

I do not even OWN DA dogs and her comments rankled. They are just...wrong...IMO. And I will state such.

Held to a higher standard..lol. Condescending yet again. We are not discussing Ol Roy vs Natural Balance here...nothing so cut and dried and supported with hard fact. We are discussing LIVING with the dogs we choose. THAT is a personally decided issue...there IS no higher standard...there is your way, my way, and her way. None of the above is higher, or better or whatever lovely turn of phrase you want to put on it. No one here said her dogs are miserable, mentally ill, or called them names that I see...

IMO the sensationalistic stuff, is so unnecessary...and doesn't speak of a higher standard to me so much as a need to be right.

Dogs can be mentally ill as one person here stated and a great deal of this presents itself with DA tendencies

shakes head and walks away...i guess you all want uncontrollable cat killing animals.

 

[Chewbecca]

Oh! I don't know if those comments were made when I stormed out of this thread earlier, but I missed them somehow.:lol-sign:

 

[Zoom]

The amount of progress I saw when I spent 10 minutes every night working with the dogs (just on stupid tricks) was mind boggling...now, I'm pretty lazy so I don't do it every night, but just keeping up any of this can do wonders. I'm working to get Sawyer to not bark at everything outside...even though everyone else in the neighbor hood has barking dogs, I don't want to be one of them. So each time he barks more than once, I'm up and out the door with the "enough!" command and will call him back inside if he doesn't shut up. He's getting better about being quiet each and every day. Being quiet means he gets to play or lay in the sun or watch the squirrels, whatever he wants to do. He just can't bark...some people think that's asking way too much of an Aussie, but I'm asking it and following through. I want to be able to take him everywhere I can and we can't do that if he's going to bark his fool head off the whole time. I'd like to get back into agility, which we had to leave because he got so wound up barking at the dogs that not only could I not hear the instructor, he couldn't hear me.

I'm probably asking for more trouble than it's worth here, but oh well. Becca, why is it so threatening that someone asks for people to hold their dog to a higher standard? DA or DR or even just a very barky dog, one would be amazed at what concerted effort can achieve. By owning a dog known to be highly DA, you signed yourself up to be held to a higher standard, because of what can/has/does happen otherwise. Life is unpredictable...fires happen, storms happen, situations requiring paramedics happen. Structure goes out the window at that point...what happens to your dog then? If a paramedic leaves the door open because they are rushing to get a stretcher or crash cart or whatever, what is Ella going to do? Will she have the training to hold her stay or "leave it" if someone walking their dog comes down the street to see what's going on or is she going to dash out the door and compound the situation? I know most people do not take DA as lightly as it has come off in various places in this thread but does everyone take training seriously enough?

 

[jess2416]

Held to a higher standard..lol. Condescending yet again. We are not discussing Ol Roy vs Natural Balance here...nothing so cut and dried and supported with hard fact. We are discussing LIVING with the dogs we choose. THAT is a personally decided issue...there IS no higher standard...there is your way, my way, and her way. None of the above is higher, or better or whatever lovely turn of phrase you want to put on it.

Agreed...

 

[Chewbecca]

My son broke his head open last year on the tub. He fell spidermanning his way into the tub via my towel rack in it. I was downstairs fetching his PJs when he pulled this stunt.

He had blood pouring out the back of his head and I almost passed out.
I called 911, got him cleaned up and had him sit and hold a towel on his head.
Got him dressed, called my husband, called my parents, called my husband's parents, AND CRATED ELLA. All in probably less than two minutes.


Even IF something were to happen to the owner of ANY dog, is that dog going to be trained well enough to obey commands given by someone that doesn't know the trained commands to give the dog?

 

[Tahla9999]

The amount of progress I saw when I spent 10 minutes every night working with the dogs (just on stupid tricks) was mind boggling...now, I'm pretty lazy so I don't do it every night, but just keeping up any of this can do wonders. I'm working to get Sawyer to not bark at everything outside...even though everyone else in the neighbor hood has barking dogs, I don't want to be one of them. So each time he barks more than once, I'm up and out the door with the "enough!" command and will call him back inside if he doesn't shut up. He's getting better about being quiet each and every day. Being quiet means he gets to play or lay in the sun or watch the squirrels, whatever he wants to do. He just can't bark...some people think that's asking way too much of an Aussie, but I'm asking it and following through. I want to be able to take him everywhere I can and we can't do that if he's going to bark his fool head off the whole time. I'd like to get back into agility, which we had to leave because he got so wound up barking at the dogs that not only could I not hear the instructor, he couldn't hear me.

I'm probably asking for more trouble than it's worth here, but oh well. Becca, why is it so threatening that someone asks for people to hold their dog to a higher standard? DA or DR or even just a very barky dog, one would be amazed at what concerted effort can achieve. By owning a dog known to be highly DA, you signed yourself up to be held to a higher standard, because of what can/has/does happen otherwise. Life is unpredictable...fires happen, storms happen, situations requiring paramedics happen. Structure goes out the window at that point...what happens to your dog then? If a paramedic leaves the door open because they are rushing to get a stretcher or crash cart or whatever, what is Ella going to do? Will she have the training to hold her stay or "leave it" if someone walking their dog comes down the street to see what's going on or is she going to dash out the door and compound the situation? I know most people do not take DA as lightly as it has come off in various places in this thread but does everyone take training seriously enough?

I found it very offending when she said DA dogs should be locked up and kept away from people because they are a danger to the society. That was just uncalled for.

 

[drmom777]

My silly hounds aren't dog aggressive either- but I used to have a dog that was. Her comments rankled here too, and made me feel some alarm for the future of her pit mix. I think people who won't handle possible DA in a dog need to avoid certain breeds like the plague- for the safety of those breeds. And this doesn't even take into account that any breed can become DA.;

When we take on a dog, it is for better or for worse, like a marriage. Unless there is a true public safety threat, we commit to doing the best we can for that dog for the duration of its lifetime.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I know most people do not take DA as lightly as it has come off in various places in this thread but does everyone take training seriously enough?

I would imagine they take it as seriously as their situation and personality dictate they take it. Not everyone here needs a wunderkind in fur...you know what? I think that is okay...because...

None of us is here because we hate dogs or find them a bother to deal with, spend time on, or include in our lives.

So again...preaching at people who LOVE their dogs...and do their utmost...including seeking out other dog people to discuss things with...doesn't sound like a group that need to be lectured, judged, or dictated to as the "standard" by which they keep their dogs.

This same person actually said that people who place rewards out for lost pets...lack morals, and are "sad". You honestly think comments like that are fair and conducive to showing folks a better way of enjoying their pets? The comments today are presenting a picture I don't think is true...perhaps a bad day or gawd only knows what...but I am really kinda still wondering...WTF?

 

[Zoom]

Speaking as to that, in this day and age where people will pull crap like kidnapping a dog because they know they will get a monetary reward, yes, it is dangerous to advertise that fact to more people. She's not the one that came up with, the ASPCA did, or one of those organizations, and for the same reasons why general policy dictates that police or government do not pay out in hostage situations.

I think we've reached a point now where any useful communication is past and now all that's going to happen is harping on the same points over and over and over, with each side getting progressively more pissed off because the other won't see things their way.

And for a final excuse, she's having a bad day illness-wise and her points arent' coming across as clearly as she'd like them too.

 

[JustaLilBitaLuck]

If a dog kills it is aggressive. I don't care what 'type' of aggression it is. Aggression is aggression and the sooner that people start realizing that the better.

And ignorant people are ignorant people.

And according to you, a dog that is dog aggressive and could potentially kill another dog is aggressive. Well, I could potentially kill another person. What does that make me?

I would not let my dog kill a rat becuase that would give him the chance of being bitten by one IF it could be avoided . Ever bee bitten by a rat? ARe you prepared to teach him the difference between a rat and a raccoon? ENcouraging that behavior is dangerous too. My lab Charlie killed a sewer rat that came in when brush creek flooded. THe animal was enormous, and he must have shook it into everything in the kitchen because there was blood everywhere. I was terrified to look but fortunate that he was not bitten. He was lucky. Why would you do that?

My working terrier might be bitten by a rat. My working border collie might be kicked by the hooved animal she's herding. My working lab might be shot accidentally by another hunter as he's retrieving a bird. I might be hit by a bus as I walk out my front door.

smkie...do you also find it horrible and aggressive for cats to kill mice, baby rabbits, birds? Do you think they should also be trained as well to recall off a chase?

Barncats do a valuable service...are the injuries and illnesses they might sustain doing so more okay than if a barn Terrier provides the same? Because they are cats?

:hail:

The problem is not dog-aggressive, cat-aggressive or small-animal aggressive dogs. The problem is people who don't take responsibility for their pets.

:hail: