Bad Dog Trainer Beware !!
- Thread starter swilson
- Start date
I'm sorry to say this, but Purdue, frankly you and your posts sicken me. I hate the way you take scripture out of context to justify beating your dog until it bleeds. That is sick. When did Jesus ever beat an animal or person? He didn't even beat the money changers when they desecrated his temple, he cracked a whip and drove them away, but he never attacked anybody. These are HIS words about children, and how they should be treated:
Luke 17:2
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Anybody that advocates beating children or animals is a monster plain and simple. I know because I was raised by one. A simpleminded monster who was too wrapped up in feeling their own inferiority to approach problem solving with the native intelligence he was blessed with at birth. I did not become a "good" and "productive" person as a result of "the whomping stick" or "the belt". I am now seriously paranoid and suffer tremendously from PTSD as a result, and several years of my life were spent in a terribly abusive relationship because I didn't realize that people were supposed to treat each other any better than what I got then. Now it's getting better, but not without a lot of medical treatment.
I had a WONDERFUL German shepherd who I trained with hand signals, she would obey them to a T from 30 yards away. I did not have to yell, she did not need to hear me because she watched me for physical signals of what I wanted her to do. She would lie down, sit, stay, stand up, wait, come, halt, etc. AND I NEVER HIT HER ONCE! EVER! We did correct her sometimes, with a VERBAL correction to let her know when she was loosing focus, but she LIKED us, and WANTED to please us because we had a very good relationship. Anko was a really wonderful dog, and I hate to think what kind of cowering shell of a dog she would have been reduced to with your "trainer" working her.
I also used to live with some friends who train search and rescue dogs, and had the opportunity to do some very in depth work with their collie and GSD. They NEVER hit their dogs. Verbal corrections yes, but you cannot have a reliable SAR dog that is afraid of people. They are supposed to love people more than anything, more than chasing bunnies, playing with other dogs, eating deer poop, etc. I know it works because both of those dogs are now on the team. Tucker the collie made it on at just over a year old which is remarkable.
Sorry to everyone else who had to read this. I have extraordinarily strong feelings about abusers who try to justify their actions, especially ones who use scripture to support it.
Luke 17:2
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Anybody that advocates beating children or animals is a monster plain and simple. I know because I was raised by one. A simpleminded monster who was too wrapped up in feeling their own inferiority to approach problem solving with the native intelligence he was blessed with at birth. I did not become a "good" and "productive" person as a result of "the whomping stick" or "the belt". I am now seriously paranoid and suffer tremendously from PTSD as a result, and several years of my life were spent in a terribly abusive relationship because I didn't realize that people were supposed to treat each other any better than what I got then. Now it's getting better, but not without a lot of medical treatment.
I had a WONDERFUL German shepherd who I trained with hand signals, she would obey them to a T from 30 yards away. I did not have to yell, she did not need to hear me because she watched me for physical signals of what I wanted her to do. She would lie down, sit, stay, stand up, wait, come, halt, etc. AND I NEVER HIT HER ONCE! EVER! We did correct her sometimes, with a VERBAL correction to let her know when she was loosing focus, but she LIKED us, and WANTED to please us because we had a very good relationship. Anko was a really wonderful dog, and I hate to think what kind of cowering shell of a dog she would have been reduced to with your "trainer" working her.
I also used to live with some friends who train search and rescue dogs, and had the opportunity to do some very in depth work with their collie and GSD. They NEVER hit their dogs. Verbal corrections yes, but you cannot have a reliable SAR dog that is afraid of people. They are supposed to love people more than anything, more than chasing bunnies, playing with other dogs, eating deer poop, etc. I know it works because both of those dogs are now on the team. Tucker the collie made it on at just over a year old which is remarkable.
Sorry to everyone else who had to read this. I have extraordinarily strong feelings about abusers who try to justify their actions, especially ones who use scripture to support it.
Oh, and Anko also had terrible aggression issues with other dogs and she had such a strong prey drive she wanted to eat our cat and chickens. We used positive methods to teach her that it was better to LIKE other dogs, and not eat the cat and chickens. After about 3 months she could play with and enjoy interacting with other dogs, and we could leave her unsupervised with our rabbit, cat, and chickens and she would not touch them. NO BEATING INVOLVED! wow, imagine that.
Can your dog play with other dogs? Does he enjoy them? If you left him alone with another dog would he still be "nice"? Or is he only behaving because he is afraid of having the snot beat out of him?
Can your dog play with other dogs? Does he enjoy them? If you left him alone with another dog would he still be "nice"? Or is he only behaving because he is afraid of having the snot beat out of him?
P
Yep, you didn't call me a criminal there.
I'm sorry about your situation Romy, truly i am, but you call me a monster and say that i take the scriptures out of context when you obviously have the bible right in front of you. its what it says. I didn't change it in anyway. My dogs love me. slys wagging his tail and smiling every morning when i let him out and mickey's little nub is going a mile a minute.
I'm sorry about your situation Romy, truly i am, but you call me a monster and say that i take the scriptures out of context when you obviously have the bible right in front of you. its what it says. I didn't change it in anyway. My dogs love me. slys wagging his tail and smiling every morning when i let him out and mickey's little nub is going a mile a minute.
Purdue, save yourself the personal beat down. It's not worth it. I'll sway them abit. :yikes:
Your Dog School and training factuality is a very nice set up. I've been to Military K9 academies similiar to that of Martin Richling, just wasn't open to the public. Now, I know why.
Also, I would like to mention certain breeds need harder corrections the first time, to waive any attempt to repeat a wrong doing.
Let's take my Cattle Dog for instance, Sara had a problem with fast moving vehicles. Without serious corrections in the beginning, she would have killed herself to get a bite on that fast moving tire. Harder correction was needed and a serious balance after correction. Certain established drives in "hard" dogs need to be harder with correction, than that of other dogs.
Personally, I manhandle or use the E-Collar, either way my point of correction is understood. Lives depend on it, both dogs and humans.
If some of you people ever experience a "hard" dog, I'm sure you will change your tune and real quick. You can't just look at him/her and say, "please stop" and give a treat, or "don't do that Fido" ... if you think you can... your a danger to society and sadly mistaken.
Also, about the Dobe ... we have no idea from what is posted exactly how far in training he was, it could have very well been his first session with a group of graduates, so yes maybe then he would be a bit worried or scared to be the only dog moving away from the crowd and uncertain of himself or actions.
When a dog goes on a tangent or ill act, and his master is there to see the encounter, man should take care to avoid mistakes. Your dog has certain relationships to the wolf your family pet may have slightly forgotten.
I don't think Martin Richling deserves the bashing in this thread.
Your Dog School and training factuality is a very nice set up. I've been to Military K9 academies similiar to that of Martin Richling, just wasn't open to the public. Now, I know why.
Also, I would like to mention certain breeds need harder corrections the first time, to waive any attempt to repeat a wrong doing.
Let's take my Cattle Dog for instance, Sara had a problem with fast moving vehicles. Without serious corrections in the beginning, she would have killed herself to get a bite on that fast moving tire. Harder correction was needed and a serious balance after correction. Certain established drives in "hard" dogs need to be harder with correction, than that of other dogs.
Personally, I manhandle or use the E-Collar, either way my point of correction is understood. Lives depend on it, both dogs and humans.
If some of you people ever experience a "hard" dog, I'm sure you will change your tune and real quick. You can't just look at him/her and say, "please stop" and give a treat, or "don't do that Fido" ... if you think you can... your a danger to society and sadly mistaken.
Also, about the Dobe ... we have no idea from what is posted exactly how far in training he was, it could have very well been his first session with a group of graduates, so yes maybe then he would be a bit worried or scared to be the only dog moving away from the crowd and uncertain of himself or actions.
When a dog goes on a tangent or ill act, and his master is there to see the encounter, man should take care to avoid mistakes. Your dog has certain relationships to the wolf your family pet may have slightly forgotten.
I don't think Martin Richling deserves the bashing in this thread.
Melissa, Anko was a GSD from east german working lines, pretty hard by the standards of a lot of dogs out there.
In the beginning of her training, yes she would have completely gutted and eaten our cat, chickens, or rabbit IF given the opportunity. She would have also killed another dog or gotten both of them seriously injured in a fight. However, we never gave her those opportunities. We also made sure to carefully avoid triggering those drives while conditioning them out of her.
Did we say, "Anko, please stop barking and aggressively lunging at that dog," on walks when there was another dog? No, that would be stupid. We would turn around and leave with her to avoid the trigger until she learned that other dogs were OK. It took a few months of conditioning to get her to ignore those things, but it did work, and was very reliable because we made it worth her while. If we had an e-collar on her and zapped her every time she barked at another dog, there is no way on earth she could have progressed to actually playing with other dogs and having fun. A dog that is corrected physically I could never trust unsupervised. They are only behaving because they are scared you will punish them for doing the "bad thing". If you are not present to punish them, then what guarantee is there that they will not do it? If a behavior becomes a rewarding thing for them to do (like not eat the cat vs. eating the cat) then they will make the "right" choice, regardless of whether you are there to enforce it.
If you want to use the antiquated argument of humans being the "alpha" wolf in a dog pack, look at it this way:
In a wolf pack, if the alpha is not present for whatever reason (out hunting, cruisng around, at the office, whatever) then the role of leader at that present time is temporarily deferred to the "next in line". If your dog is left alone, then your dog become his own leader for the time being.
Now think, what decisions are a dog that has been punished for "bad behavior" going to make when no one is there to guide him? If he was hit for barking and lunging at the fence when people pass by, will he still not do it when you are gone? He may or may not. Compare that to a dog who has been conditioned to believe that people walking by his fence are a positive experience. He will not lunge and bark at all. Anko was conditioned to believe that our cat sleeping with her on her bed was the best thing that could happen to her, so that even when we were not around to supervise them together she would still respect the cat and enjoy sharing her bed. If we had hit her every time she looked at the cat, she may or may not have kept ignoring her. We might have come home to a bloody mess.
Frankly, no dog should be put in a situation where it could chase a car or livestock unless it's been conditioned out of it. I really don't think most should be put in that situation at all, just to take all risk away. Some dogs also just have very strong drives one way or another (like some dog aggressive dogs) and can only be taught to tolerate those things when their owner is present. That is fine too, but hitting a dog to suppress a drive is completely wrong IMO and makes for unreliable performance.
In the beginning of her training, yes she would have completely gutted and eaten our cat, chickens, or rabbit IF given the opportunity. She would have also killed another dog or gotten both of them seriously injured in a fight. However, we never gave her those opportunities. We also made sure to carefully avoid triggering those drives while conditioning them out of her.
Did we say, "Anko, please stop barking and aggressively lunging at that dog," on walks when there was another dog? No, that would be stupid. We would turn around and leave with her to avoid the trigger until she learned that other dogs were OK. It took a few months of conditioning to get her to ignore those things, but it did work, and was very reliable because we made it worth her while. If we had an e-collar on her and zapped her every time she barked at another dog, there is no way on earth she could have progressed to actually playing with other dogs and having fun. A dog that is corrected physically I could never trust unsupervised. They are only behaving because they are scared you will punish them for doing the "bad thing". If you are not present to punish them, then what guarantee is there that they will not do it? If a behavior becomes a rewarding thing for them to do (like not eat the cat vs. eating the cat) then they will make the "right" choice, regardless of whether you are there to enforce it.
If you want to use the antiquated argument of humans being the "alpha" wolf in a dog pack, look at it this way:
In a wolf pack, if the alpha is not present for whatever reason (out hunting, cruisng around, at the office, whatever) then the role of leader at that present time is temporarily deferred to the "next in line". If your dog is left alone, then your dog become his own leader for the time being.
Now think, what decisions are a dog that has been punished for "bad behavior" going to make when no one is there to guide him? If he was hit for barking and lunging at the fence when people pass by, will he still not do it when you are gone? He may or may not. Compare that to a dog who has been conditioned to believe that people walking by his fence are a positive experience. He will not lunge and bark at all. Anko was conditioned to believe that our cat sleeping with her on her bed was the best thing that could happen to her, so that even when we were not around to supervise them together she would still respect the cat and enjoy sharing her bed. If we had hit her every time she looked at the cat, she may or may not have kept ignoring her. We might have come home to a bloody mess.
Frankly, no dog should be put in a situation where it could chase a car or livestock unless it's been conditioned out of it. I really don't think most should be put in that situation at all, just to take all risk away. Some dogs also just have very strong drives one way or another (like some dog aggressive dogs) and can only be taught to tolerate those things when their owner is present. That is fine too, but hitting a dog to suppress a drive is completely wrong IMO and makes for unreliable performance.
I knew this would get "edgy" after that first post. LOL Perdue, I certainly don't want to make this a personal issue. I don't know you or your dogs. I don't care about Richlings' program. I believe he's simply the first trainer you've committed to in a consistent schedule. I believe, for the time being, he's convinced you that he knows best. If you really ever become active with your dogs outside of his class, I believe you'll encounter other trainers, different levels of expertise and will then maybe change your opinion about dog training. Until then, I know that from the videos you've posted, he couldn't hold a candle to some of the trainers that were in my program and he wouldn't last 2 days in my classes. He's sloppy, couldn't place in a real competition and I believe that that's the reason he knocks comps and other trainers methods. An obedience ring is full of distractions and I hope you get out to one soon to observe. Overhead speakers, concession stands, kids, babies in strollers, dogs in the ring next to you, barking throughout the building, ect. In this environment, you're required to use a normal tone of voice, no corrections, with no sign of distress from the dog. No hesitation on a sit or down, no hesitation on a recall, no continued forward motion on a drop on recall, no pinned ears or submissive posture... all of the things I saw the Dob doing. You can usually tell whose used certain methods when you go to a competition. There is a difference in drive and focus and until you've seen it, it is pointless to debate this. This thread was started by someone who obviously has first hand experience, like yourself, in Richlings' classes. You've each had a different experience. They sounded very dissatisfied. As a professional trainer, I am always happy to hear when a dog owner questions methods they may not agree with, still thinks for themselves, uses good judgment and common sense when selecting a trainer.
P
that's exactly what i mean. you want to keep your dog from any distractions that may cause it to break down. he trains among them. that's what a correction is for. you run away from the thing that causes the dog to break down instead of facing the dog's fear and moving forward. if everyone kept their dogs away from distractions most dogs wouldn't get out of their crate. they would have very crappy lives in my opinion.
no, just keep the dog on a leash until they've learned that its NOT okay to do those certain behaviors (in this case, chasing livestock or cars). Whether its a 6ft leash, or a 20ft leash, depending on the training... They can't chase them if they're tied to you
I don't think you are understanding what's being said, or about " our training techniques " ...
I don't think you are understanding what's being said, or about " our training techniques " ...
Melissacato mentioned something very important. Her perception of training a "hard" dog. I deal with this misconception all of the time and want to mention that inappropriate methods used on a "hard" dog, for lack of a better term, can be disastrous. I posted an example of this in another thread, quite sometime ago. An obedience student of mine who went onto FRS and got into a training program much like Richlings. His dog turned on him one day and the results were ugly. I also know Steve White, some of his experiences in training while with our local police dept. and some of the pit falls of those "old school" training programs. Highly recommend you look up some info on him if you want to understand both sides of the coin, from someone who has real hands on experience in military, police, obedience and sport competition training.