Youth/Malinois K9 Team

[Dekka]

Dekka, its not about who's dog has drive. I honestly dont think you've seen a GSD with loads of drive, but I have seen JRT's and they are fiesty little dogs. but the main point being there is a huge difference between 20lbs and 80lbs.

Just yesturday I was hiking with my dog, and I had him tied to me (police style leash). He saw a squirell, and off he went, I was dragged UP a hill (and I aint small). And he's not even that big, but very powerful. JRTs are strong for their size but a larger dog usually equates more devastating in most situations.. Everyone knows your dogs have drive, but you should know that our dogs have drive as well. You go on about JRT's all the time, and us with "athletic" GSD's should be able to do the same.

I have owned dogs over 100 pounds. I do know what big dogs are like. And Yes it WAS about dogs who have drive (heck that was EXACTLY what I WAS talking about)

Of course there is a difference. About 60 pounds to be exact. I guess you don't see anything worthy of a 15 pound dog taking on a 26 pound angry badger in its own home. I guess I do see a parallel between that and a larger dog against a man.

Devestating to whom? What does that have to do with drives? Your dog couldn't even reach the badger so I could go on and on about how pointless your dog is? (would your dog enter a bear's den and engage by itself?) (forgetting the conversation was about drives and that dogs are smart enough to know real life from training and trialling)

 

[DanL]

I would argue that when a personal protection dog actually bites someone, someone usually did something wrong. The dog should be a deterrent so that you never actually end up in a physical confrontation.

That's true. I was implying that if he got a bite, something had already happened to cause him to be called to action.

So basically any dog can be a ppd??

Deterrent first, protection second. Bad guy approaches you, dog is put on a watch command where he goes to the end of the leash and acts aggressive towards the bad guy. Bad guy ignores your warnings that he needs to leave now or you'll release the dog. You release the dog, the dog bites, holds on until the bad guy stops fighting, then you call the dog off. Not any dog can do that.

Now quit stirring the pot!!!

 

[DanL]

Of course there is a difference. About 60 pounds to be exact. I guess you don't see anything worthy of a 15 pound dog taking on a 26 pound angry badger in its own home. I guess I do see a parallel between that and a larger dog against a man.

Devestating to whom? What does that have to do with drives? Your dog couldn't even reach the badger so I could go on and on about how pointless your dog is? (would your dog enter a bear's den and engage by itself?) (forgetting the conversation was about drives and that dogs are smart enough to know real life from training and trialling)

How often are dogs out killing badgers? Are badgers some kind of menace to people? If they are getting into livestock or something, you trap them and ship them off far away, like people do with bears, not kill them.

Would my dog go into a bear den and attack a bear? I hope not. A bear might be 5 or 6 times his size. There's a difference between drive and idiocy and my dog hopefully knows the difference!

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I have owned dogs over 100 pounds. I do know what big dogs are like. And Yes it WAS about dogs who have drive (heck that was EXACTLY what I WAS talking about)

Of course there is a difference. About 60 pounds to be exact. I guess you don't see anything worthy of a 15 pound dog taking on a 26 pound angry badger in its own home. I guess I do see a parallel between that and a larger dog against a man.

Devestating to whom? What does that have to do with drives? Your dog couldn't even reach the badger so I could go on and on about how pointless your dog is? (would your dog enter a bear's den and engage by itself?) (forgetting the conversation was about drives and that dogs are smart enough to know real life from training and trialling)

See Dekka, I never put your dogs down in any way and never said I did not respect your dogs. I have respect for any dog that has a working purpose. You are getting very defensive, when I've done nothing to make you feel that way. My dog doesnt need to reach the badger seeing as he is not a hunting breed/dog. Nor will I ALLOW him to engage a bear.

I'm not going to get into my dog is better than your dog, cause honestly it doesnt matter. if we all wanted the same thing we would all have the same dogs. I just wish you could respect what we do, as most people here have already stated that they respect JRT's.

 

[Dekka]

lol I wasn't suggesting you do send your dog after a bear. It was in response to GSD lover.

The JRT is not supposed to kill the quarry. But keep it busy while you dig down to it. You either remove or dispatch yourself. There is a terrierman in KY who traps things and lets them go on his acreage so they are removed from the area but are not killed.

I picked badger as they are big and 'mean'. It was being implied because Dekka is small she is a weenie cause she couldn't do damage to a human (tho she could reach a crotch ) I was commenting on the fact that they are meant to go after a comparatively similar sized animal. Your large breed dog would have to go after a smallish bear to be comparative.

Basically just cause my dog is small and cute she is not a weenie

 

[Dekka]

Maybe you need to prey one up on a man instead of rats so you can set people straight

cause rats aren't at all serious to an 12 pound dog ... I know you didnt' mean this in any insulting way, BUT I have had dogs faces all covered in blood from attacking a rat in the barn. So why do I need them to go after a person who is over 10X their size before people can respect them?

Dekka, its not about who's dog has drive. I honestly dont think you've seen a GSD with loads of drive, but I have seen JRT's and they are fiesty little dogs. but the main point being there is a huge difference between 20lbs and 80lbs.

I have seen dogs with lots of drive. Once again cause a dog is small it is to be dismissed. (and yes the convo is about drives)

One of the reasons my breed ends up in shelters and rescues. People don't take them seriously UNTIL they are afraid to go in their own room when the 15 pound dog is on the bed.

 

[Hairy&Stumpy]

How often are dogs out killing badgers? Are badgers some kind of menace to people?

:rofl1:

Now that is funny and mine would most surely take offense.

My dogs are out killing these imaginary badgers every day, day in and day out. Not a day goes by that my dogs have not killed many an invisible menace to society! I have a back yard full of stuffing to prove it! :rofl1::rofl1:

All joking aside, my dogs were bred to destroy badger.

 

[Sch3Dana]

cause rats aren't at all serious to an 12 pound dog ... I know you didnt' mean this in any insulting way, BUT I have had dogs faces all covered in blood from attacking a rat in the barn. So why do I need them to go after a person who is over 10X their size before people can respect them?

Gosh, how is it that you think I was disrespecting your dogs? That was a joke and in my mind it was funny bc I know you really could train many jacks to bite people. I said in the next paragraph that I was bitten rather badly by a terrier. I do not think they are a joke and I know they can do schutzhund and "real" protection, as I've seen it with my own eyes (and I think I mentioned this earlier).

You really don't need to fight against me and I am not disagreeing with you. The only thing I've wanted to say is that not all schutzhund dogs are "playing", which is the point you really kept pushing.

 

[DanL]

One of the reasons my breed ends up in shelters and rescues. People don't take them seriously UNTIL they are afraid to go in their own room when the 15 pound dog is on the bed.

Yeah, been there w/ Buzz, he was on my daughter's bed (he'll sleep up there for hours), I need to go out and had to crate him so there was no chance for him and Gunnar to scrap. He put his ears back, bared his teeth, and began to growl increasingly louder as I approached him. I took him by the collar and put him off the bed and that was that. He followed me downstairs to his crate. I don't play that game!

Buzz will actually choke himself out trying to get to Gunnar at dinner time. My wife will hold him by the collar while I take Gunnar and Daisy out to feed them, and Buzz will growl and lunge and fight against the collar until he's coughing from choking himself. Thats the main difference between high drive small dogs and high drive big dogs. You wouldn't be able to hold Gunnar or Daisy, if they got to that point, they are just too strong. That's where the prong comes in (the thing that began this whole thread!)

 

[Dekka]

That's where the prong comes in (the thing that began this whole thread!)

Haha and the thread comes full circle. And back to when you are training a drivey dog off leash size doesn't matter (for training. yes a GSD can do more damage if it attacked something..but can't likely climb trees to get your neighbour's cat either lol)

 

[DanL]

That's why we moved to off leash the same way you do anything else off leash, slowly, lower distractions- decoy remaining still and not looking at the dog, not getting too close to the decoy while we did our exercises. Gradually moving closer until we could go right past the still decoy without him giving much more than a glance in his direction. Then we moved away again and the decoy started to walk around, being non threatening, but no longer stationary. Build that up, introduce more threatening movements from a distance, etc.

 

[Dekka]

That's why we moved to off leash the same way you do anything else off leash, slowly, lower distractions- decoy remaining still and not looking at the dog, not getting too close to the decoy while we did our exercises. Gradually moving closer until we could go right past the still decoy without him giving much more than a glance in his direction. Then we moved away again and the decoy started to walk around, being non threatening, but no longer stationary. Build that up, introduce more threatening movements from a distance, etc.

I know. I was talking about training in general (way back in this thread) not for any specific sport.

 

[adojrts]

Earth dog trials are supposed to be tests too. But at least JRTs are smart enough to know a 'test' from the real thing.

Dekka, sorry I know we are friends but I don't agree with this statment at all. Agreed that Go to Ground at Earth Trials is a test of SOME measure but not all dogs know the difference unless trained.
If you take a working terrier from the field and take it to an Earth Trial, it will either be uninterested, mildly interested or slow in the game because it knows that to fly around a corner could get its face riped off if met face to face with quarry.
You take a Go To Ground dog that has had a lot of experience doing that event and take it hunting for the first time, its is at a much higher risk of getting hurt because they hit the sette doing mach 1 and get the surprise of a lifetime that the quarry isn't a rat in a cage and it just b*tch slapped the dog upside of the face.

I know that my dogs once they have been hunting for a while are much to slow for g2g and its not worth the entry.
The working people that I know that also do g2g with their dogs have spent a great deal of time and in a certain order (hunting/g2g) to train the dogs to know the difference.

 

[Dekka]

Dekka, sorry I know we are friends but I don't agree with this statment at all. Agreed that Go to Ground at Earth Trials is a test of SOME measure but not all dogs know the difference unless trained.
If you take a working terrier from the field and take it to an Earth Trial, it will either be uninterested, mildly interested or slow in the game because it knows that to fly around a corner could get its face riped off if met face to face with quarry.
You take a Go To Ground dog that has had a lot of experience doing that event and take it hunting for the first time, its is at a much higher risk of getting hurt because they hit the sette doing mach 1 and get the surprise of a lifetime that the quarry isn't a rat in a cage and it just b*tch slapped the dog upside of the face.

I know that my dogs once they have been hunting for a while are much to slow for g2g and its not worth the entry.
The working people that I know that also do g2g with their dogs have spent a great deal of time and in a certain order (hunting/g2g) to train the dogs to know the difference.

That was my point. Dogs who do both will know there is a difference. I never said they would know the first time, or even the fifth. lol to quote myself from earlier in the the thread

I am saying dogs learn that it is NOT for real.

Learning takes at least some time.

 

[adojrts]

That was my point. Dogs who do both will know there is a difference. I never said they would know the first time, or even the fifth. lol to quote myself from earlier in the the thread



Learning takes at least some time.

Sorry, must have missed that part

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Dekka, I was not implying your dog was a "weenie", lol. But in all honesty size does make a difference, doesnt mean your dogs wouldnt WANT to attack (I know they're behinds would put on a good fight) but the difference in size can make the difference of an accident and a potential fatality. A large dog who is not controlled is a serious danger. Although I still wouldnt mess with a JRT.

 

[release the hounds]

If that was the case the dog would never enter an earth again. Or keep pushing after a pipe is dug down (cause then the dog COULD leave)

I get that schutzhund is a test. Earth dog trials are supposed to be tests too. But at least JRTs are smart enough to know a 'test' from the real thing.

Ok, this seems to be turning into a "my sport or breed is better than yours" which isn't my intention. Lots of dogs would still go to earth, the weakest ones wouldn't, but when a dog goes to the earth it is in full on prey drive. prey drive is fun it isn't scary. Lots of dogs have prey drive that will take them past the fearful part of anything including going into dark places where something bad may have happened before, and terriers have tons of prey drive.

i don't get the test for the real thing comment though. How about this, during the tests, let the badger out of the cage and fight the dog a couple times. See if he doesn't view every "test" as possibly the real thing after that. It's a training issue that's all.

 

[Dekka]

Ok, this seems to be turning into a "my sport or breed is better than yours" which isn't my intention. Lots of dogs would still go to earth, the weakest ones wouldn't, but when a dog goes to the earth it is in full on prey drive. prey drive is fun it isn't scary. Lots of dogs have prey drive that will take them past the fearful part of anything including going into dark places where something bad may have happened before, and terriers have tons of prey drive.

i don't get the test for the real thing comment though. How about this, during the tests, let the badger out of the cage and fight the dog a couple times. See if he doesn't view every "test" as possibly the real thing after that. It's a training issue that's all.

There is no badger in a cage. If you are hunting the quarry is free to do as it pleases. If it is a test then it is just that. The rat is safe as it is someones pet.

No one was saying one was better than another. My point was one is a test one is for real. I show GTG and have hunted. Both have their challenges. Why do you assume one is better than the other?

 

[release the hounds]

whoa man, I just read the rest of the thread. I love JRT's, If smaller dogs were my thing, i'd have a bunch of them. I like driven athletic tough dogs, JRT's fit it all, but the size catagory for me.

and I know there is no badger in a cage, it was just using it as a refernece. Yes some dogs know when it is a trial and when it is real in my sports and yours, after many times of going thru the same motions at a trial, and different cues when its' not a trial.

All it takes is a couple "trial" settings and let the rat or whatever ( i said badger, well because i'm going to the Badger game tomorrow against Marshall and they're pretty tough animals) out of the cage to actually fight with them, and they won't view every trial as a trial. But then they don't show as sporty as you'd like to win either, but there's always a trade off.

 

[adojrts]

GSDlover,
I'll try and clear up a couple of things for you. First thing is the Go To Ground 'tests' at earth trials are really just a game. It is by no means a true test of a working terrier and certainly doesn't require a test of bravery or courage. There is little risk of the dog getting hurt and they do not engage anything other than a rat in a cage, which they can't get at. The rat often goes to sleep.
For those reasons alone, most working terrier people couldn't be bothered to enter those events at earth trials.
When entering a novice dog or pup in a Go To Ground 'test', if the dog will keenly enter the tunnels it is a good sign that the terrier 'might', enter if taken out hunting.
But it is a well known fact that just because a dog will play at the game, that it doesn't mean the dog will enter a live sette (den) in a natural setting and do get the job done.
But its no quarantee.
The challenges of a terrier, locating and then working it are far more extreme and difficult and can't be compared. There are all kinds of terriers out there that will do very well at the 'game' but don't have what it takes to get the job done in the working field.
And a workingterrier person would never bred to a dog that won a National Championship in Go To Ground if that dog wasn't also proven in the working field.