Youth/Malinois K9 Team

[DanL]

The slap at the end was wrong. She's lucky that is a VERY tolerant Mal, since a lot of them can have handler aggression issues.

I think the young girl did a fine job for her age and experience level. Yes, her timing was off on things and such, but she has a good dog who isn't sensitive to correction and seemed to work well with her. I don't think any of the leash corrections she gave were "nasty". I challenge any of you who have never trained a dog with this kind of drive, in this kind of venue, to do what this girl did without needing leash corrections. If you are all such better handlers, you shouldn't need any practice, just go out there and listen to the trainers and do what they tell you.

It's a completely different game than what anyone who does AKC type stuff has ever seen, and until you have tried it, you can't really appreciate it. Try doing rally or agility with a bunch of cats or dogs or people or an in season female or whatever your dogs biggest distraction is out there on the course with you. It will take a LONG time before you can reach the level you might be at now without those distractions. That's how it is every day for protection training.

BTW you guys know who the adult female is in that video? That's our friend Melissa!

 

[Dekka]

It's a completely different game than what anyone who does AKC type stuff has ever seen, and until you have tried it, you can't really appreciate it. Try doing rally or agility with a bunch of cats or dogs or people or an in season female or whatever your dogs biggest distraction is out there on the course with you. It will take a LONG time before you can reach the level you might be at now without those distractions. That's how it is every day for protection training.

That I can do. (how about being agility champion with rats (for other events and other events on going in view... and with a dog who took champion in super earth that day too)

 

[slinkey dogs]

That I can do. (how about being agility champion with rats (for other events and other events on going in view... and with a dog who took champion in super earth that day too)

your dogs weigh less than 20 pounds. they may have a lot of drive, but they are still small. take your dog and increase it's weight to like 80 pounds and take your weight down to let's say the girl weighed 60-65 pounds so take your weight there. And then increase the dogs drive and energy level even more. Now put a very big distraction for your dog in the field and have it do obedience commands.

 

[Dekka]

Training is training. The size of dog doesn't matter. If your dog is off leash it doesn't matter.

My dogs are small but when in drive they can do this:

This was a paw from a dog who really wanted the race lure.

My dogs are hunting bred dogs, they will engage and some will kill animals larger than themselves. I would match my dogs drive to that of that a mal any day. To me it didn't seem all that drivey IMO (which is a good thing... I wouldn't give a high drive mal to a kid anyway. That is bad parenting)

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

your dogs weigh less than 20 pounds. they may have a lot of drive, but they are still small. take your dog and increase it's weight to like 80 pounds and take your weight down to let's say the girl weighed 60-65 pounds so take your weight there. And then increase the dogs drive and energy level even more. Now put a very big distraction for your dog in the field and have it do obedience commands.

You dont go from 0-60 in 3.5 seconds . You cannot just go out grab a dog and pose its biggest distraction expecting it to obey. One thing I've learned is patience is key. Ive yet to correct my 9 month old, and his drives are INSANE (more than any previous GSD's I've had). He has learned self control. And when I mean crazy drives, I mean crazy, teeth chattering, high pitch yipping, alligator snap drives. He's not very big though, but is VERY powerful even being just a puppy.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Training is training. The size of dog doesn't matter. If your dog is off leash it doesn't matter.


My dogs are hunting bred dogs, they will engage and some will kill animals larger than themselves. I would match my dogs drive to that of that a mal any day. To me it didn't seem all that drivey IMO (which is a good thing... I wouldn't give a high drive mal to a kid anyway. That is bad parenting)

If that Mali was really drivey that girl would have been injured out of frustration.

 

[release the hounds]

are you teaching your 9 month old puppy the blinds yet? I wouldn't expect anybody to be correcting their bitework puppy at 9 months old, wait till out means out hold and bark means hold and bark, not hold and nip and bite at will, or run the blinds and if empty come back to me, not continue to where you think the bad guy is and then add in all the obedience, the transports the balance of control and power and tracking. Put on top of that being proficient at 80% of all those exercises in all three phases will most likely end up in a failing score. I'd bet most people on here wouldn't have a dog that performed half these exercises at an 80% level of proficiency, let alone under trial conditions.

I never said that video was perfect, trust me i see things i'd do differently, but besides the swat I didn't see anything to get so worked up about. Especially by those who have never attempted to train all that is involved.

BTW this was done thru bitepants

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I know more than you think about the sport and many people here know how adament I was about corrections, before. Drive work is completely different and in those situations the proper correction (more like an attention grabber) is fine, but not yanking around and hitting. Any good dog would not take take too many unfair corrections. Also the dog is only 1 1/2 still learning not proofing. I'm just concerned about her safety.

 

[adojrts]

Try doing rally or agility with a bunch of cats or dogs or people or an in season female or whatever your dogs biggest distraction is out there on the course with you. It will take a LONG time before you can reach the level you might be at now without those distractions. That's how it is every day for protection training.

QUOTE]

Does doing agility count with a couple of pot bellied pigs wandering through?
Or smoky the agility cat running up the teeter and riding it down behind my dog while he held the contact??

 

[Dekka]

lol ours has been known to have a horse in the middle (the horse isn't so much of a distraction, but what comes out the horse's rear is )

 

[DanL]

Those pigs must not have been a very big distraction to your dog adojrts. I said take your dogs biggest distraction. Like if Dekka took a couple of her dogs that hate each other out and then tried to do obedience with them doing their stick and move tactics in the face of the dog she's training.

Dekka I understand how a JRT's drive can be. I know they are bred to fight animals larger than them. But, what is a decoy to a bite dog? Often more than double the weight, 6' tall, aggressive towards the dog, yet the dog doesn't back down. Yes in certain sports the dog knows the decoy isn't going to be much of a threat, but neither is a rat in a cage at the end of a tunnel. A good dog is still going to try and take out the target, be it decoy or caged rodent.

It doesn't matter how much drive your JRT's have. They are physically incapable of comparing with an 80lb or more dog that has similar drives. It doesn't appear that Mal in the video has over the top drive, like your JRT's seem to have. There ARE dogs out there like that though, and to compare a JRT to a dog like that is apples to oranges.

 

[Sch3Dana]

Originally Posted by DanL

It's a completely different game than what anyone who does AKC type stuff has ever seen, and until you have tried it, you can't really appreciate it. Try doing rally or agility with a bunch of cats or dogs or people or an in season female or whatever your dogs biggest distraction is out there on the course with you. It will take a LONG time before you can reach the level you might be at now without those distractions. That's how it is every day for protection training.

Dekka wrote:

That I can do. (how about being agility champion with rats (for other events and other events on going in view... and with a dog who took champion in super earth that day too)

:hail:

Ha ha! That was going to be my point. The protection phase of Schutzhund is unlike any other sport (outside of the other protection sports) bc the helper is not a "distraction"- he is the goal. Teaching a dog to ignore high level distraction is relatively easy. Teaching him to engage the distraction and then call off of it and then re-engage it is a whole different game. You cannot inhibit him too much or he will no longer feel comfortable engaging. You can't make too much drive or he will no longer be able to get himself back under control. The balance is difficult. Imagine if there was a call off phase in dog breeding- your male had to want to breed instantly on command but stop as soon as you told him to- that's the best analogy I can think of

And, FYI, it's really hard to know how "drivey" the dog in question is bc we're all watching her work under a great deal of control and inhibition. Rightly so- to be around a kid she can't be allowed to get unclear and powerful or she could be dangerous. An experienced handler might allow to to be a little out of control at times when she is young, knowing that she will gain power and the control can come later. With a new handler, especially one without any physical advantage, that just can't work. And the work they are doing with the dog is keeping the sport safe for the dog and the kid. Pretty impressive training for the most part.

 

[Dekka]

Dekka I understand how a JRT's drive can be. I know they are bred to fight animals larger than them. But, what is a decoy to a bite dog? Often more than double the weight, 6' tall, aggressive towards the dog, yet the dog doesn't back down.

Just to point out and really off topic lol. JRTs are not bred for ratting. The rat is just there to stimulate their prey drive. They are meant to confront badger, fox, coon, or groundhog underground in their den. There is no one to back them up. Its not a game. Dogs get sliced up pretty bad at times. Needing staples or stitches is not at all uncommon. Some are even killed (rare but yes I know people it has happened too)

When was the last time a schutzhund dog needed to have 5 staples in the field? Or was killed working? Yes they are drivey. But JRTs need all that drive in the face of some personal peril AND all alone underground with NO back up from their handler. To me THAT is crazy drive.

To work a JRT with a prey animal in sight is NOT the same as a mal. Because JRTs are bred to work without human back up and in the face of pretty heavy resistance they don't tend to care what we think. In the field it is a fault if your dog comes up to check in on you when they are working. They need the drive to stay in the ground as long as it takes.

How often does any ring sport dog have to hold a man (fighting for his life) wielding knives trying to seriously harm the dog for potentially hours all alone? (no JRTs shouldn't have to hold the quarry there that long, but many will. There are stories of dogs in the earth for days at a time with the quarry bottled up)

Yes a mal is bigger and therefor the drive can be more 'scary'. But to say that I don't know what drivey dogs are like to train....

 

[DanL]

It's apples to oranges. You are comparing a potential real life situation with a JRT taking on a badger, to a sport dog playing a game. So of course you don't hear of a Sch dog getting staples for wounds. How many times has a JRT needed staples playing the ground dog game with a caged rodent? That's a more reasonable comparision.

A better comparison is a JRT in a fight with a badger and a police service dog who takes a bullet or knife wound, doesn't give up the fight, perhaps giving his life to protect his partner. In this day and age, how many JRT's are being wounded or killed while rooting out prey vs police or military service dogs being wounded or killed while on duty? I don't know the answer but I imagine the injury and mortality rate is higher in the service dog.

I don't think I said you don't know what a high drive dog is like to train, you obviously do. My point is the size difference alone between a Mal/GSD type dog vs a JRT makes them a completely different challenge. A JRT isn't going to physically move you when it wants something. A good sized GSD can drag you across the field to get what he wants. You have to approach that in a different way than a small dog where you can stand your ground.

To work a JRT with a prey animal in sight is exactly the distraction that is comparative with a Mal or GSD working with a decoy on the field. Regardless of working independently or not, if you are doing obedience with your dog while a prey animal is on the field, and your dog isn't complying, it's the same as me working Gunnar on the field with a decoy and him not complying. I bet that you could do it, just like it took Gunnar time to adapt, your JRT's could adapt too.

 

[DanL]

:hail:

Ha ha! That was going to be my point. The protection phase of Schutzhund is unlike any other sport (outside of the other protection sports) bc the helper is not a "distraction"- he is the goal.

And in Sch the decoy is there to make the dog look good. Check out other bite sports like PSA, where the decoy's job is to drive your dog off the field. PSA obedience for a level 2 and 3 dog includes up to 6 decoys on the field all trying to distract your dog. They can throw things at the dog, hit them with a padded stick, do all kinds of things to break your dog's concentration. Try doing a BH or CD like that!

 

[Dekka]

It's apples to oranges. You are comparing a potential real life situation with a JRT taking on a badger, to a sport dog playing a game. So of course you don't hear of a Sch dog getting staples for wounds. How many times has a JRT needed staples playing the ground dog game with a caged rodent? That's a more reasonable comparision.

We were talking drives. How many people's pets who do shutzhund could be police dogs? I was talking the drive that motivates a dog. A jrt seeing quarry (be it little or big) is not 'playing' Snip went after a rat 3 days ago and ended up with a face full of blood. Dekka has split her nose open from hitting a cage so hard when an idiot opened the go to ground tunnel before I had a hold of my dog. My point was the level of drive, to many of the mals and GSD I see in youtube videos, while very very impressive, its a game. When the sleeve comes off the man-the dog gets the sleeve. If the dog was serious he would still be after the man. (I know it is training, but my point is the dog KNOWS its a game)

I don't think I said you don't know what a high drive dog is like to train, you obviously do. My point is the size difference alone between a Mal/GSD type dog vs a JRT makes them a completely different challenge. A JRT isn't going to physically move you when it wants something. A good sized GSD can drag you across the field to get what he wants. You have to approach that in a different way than a small dog where you can stand your ground.

No you didn't. And yes the size is an issue. But if you are looking for off leash reliablilty the size doesn't matter. The drive a dog has is the issue in training, not the size of the dog (for what I am getting at here)

To work a JRT with a prey animal in sight is exactly the distraction that is comparative with a Mal or GSD working with a decoy on the field. Regardless of working independently or not, if you are doing obedience with your dog while a prey animal is on the field, and your dog isn't complying, it's the same as me working Gunnar on the field with a decoy and him not complying. I bet that you could do it, just like it took Gunnar time to adapt, your JRT's could adapt too.

No it is not the same. JRTs don't have to be trained to get the quarry. Its either in them or its not. It is not a game for them it more 'hard wired' into them. I am not trying to diminish anything anyone has trained. I am sure it is hard to train a dog to ignore their favorite thing. A ball can be a very dangerous thing when trying to train . It that I DO know what it is like to train a dog who is very drivey to ignore what they are hardwired to do.


Anyway I know YOU know about JRTs My main responses were to others in this thread who may think because my dogs are small and because I don't do ringsports I cannot possibly know what it is like to deal with high drive dogs.

 

[release the hounds]

actually the decoy is there to do what the judge wants. They are called a helper because they help the judge evaluate a dog. Some judges like their vacations and are easy on dogs and thus instruct helpers to go a little easy as well so they can be invited back for another vacation.

I've been in front of a few judges that tell you how it is, and what they expect out of the test and they like to see pressure. A training helper is there to help the dog be all that it can be, a trial helper is there to help present the dog to the judge in a fair and consistent manner. a trained eye can see the signs of stress, drive conflict, power etc in all the exercises even if the helper is there to make the dog look good. Plus you spread that out over 3 phases and you can really see where the breakdowns are in temperment, drive or training. Many dogs can do well in bitework, and their OB stinks. Clean up the OB and the bitework suffers. Dana explained it well, you can tell she's been involved and knows what she's looking at. I'd wager the dog is a pretty stable mal with more drive than most people would give it credit for. excessive energy doesn't equal drive. Many strong Shepherds i've known have been some calm and stable most people wonder how they can be such good workers, it's just they don't exhibit all sorts of displaced drive like other breeds.

anyway, agree as well they are keeping things safe for the little girl and everyone else involved.

 

[DanL]

We were talking drives. How many people's pets who do shutzhund could be police dogs? My point was the level of drive, to many of the mals and GSD I see in youtube videos, while very very impressive, its a game. When the sleeve comes off the man-the dog gets the sleeve. If the dog was serious he would still be after the man. (I know it is training, but my point is the dog KNOWS its a game)

Truthfully, not many Sch dogs can do police service. Not many can do ring, mondio or PSA either. Genetics is genetics though, and a well bred dog should be able to succeed in any of those sports or real life applications.

People use Sch as the be all end all of bite sports, but really, it's the easiest one. There is little pressure put on the dog, it's a choreographed routine that is the same every time you do it, and a lot of dogs can get titled who really shouldn't get titled. They have a trial at their own club on the same field with the same helper they've been using for the last year, and it's just another training day for the dog. When dogs like labs and border collies can get Sch titles, it seems like the sport is watered down a bit. They've taken away elements to help lesser dogs succeed. I'm not diminishing the amount of work and training that people put into a good Sch dog, believe me, I know it's hard and any dog that competes in Sch is highly trained and disciplined. But if you think a Sch protection routine is a real test of how your dog will act in the face of danger, and want to compare it to a terrier going after a larger adversary, it's not even close.

Release the hounds- I like your quote about excessive energy not equalling high drive. Calm and quiet doesn't mean less drive. To me, it can show the dog has more focus.

 

[adojrts]

Those pigs must not have been a very big distraction to your dog adojrts. . QUOTE]

Dan I was joking...........I don't consider that to be much of a distraction at least not for the level of training, that dog has.

Jumping ahead to the rest of the thread, about the only thing I can think to compare for control/training. Is when there is quarry that has been hunted, is now dispatched of and the dog that earned that quarry has ragged on it and is now quarding it against the other dogs. When we go to leave for the next sette, the dog is told to 'leave it' and is expected to comply and come with us off leash. (the quarry (groundhog) is left for the buzzards)

Ideally we need a very solid recall, off and leave it. I have 'off'd' Petie from going hell bent for leather to the property beside where we are hunting when he saw quarry.

Personally I don't think we can compare, except to say that regardless of size, it takes a dog with drive, courage and natural instincts to get the job done well. And we has the 'trainers/owners/handlers are either an asset to the dog or make it's job/training harder.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

Release the hounds- I like your quote about excessive energy not equalling high drive. Calm and quiet doesn't mean less drive. To me, it can show the dog has more focus.

The best working jrts that I have known generally are like this. My Petie is laid back and calm but he also doesn't miss a thing. He can turn 'on' in a heart beat and rise to the occasion but just as quickly turn 'off'. That is how he has been right from the whelping box, it wasn't trained into him.

When I use to do the jrt racing with him, when in the start box he use to just sit there, the lure person would be baiting the dogs to get them wanting that lure. Petie wouldn't move, sitting there calmly while the other dogs went apesh*t. I would have to tell the lure person to just drop the lure and to stop trying to get Petie to his feet. When the person dropped it and stepped off the track, Petie would then crouch and be ready to race..........one of the reasons he won so much.

I have seriously considered getting a Mal and would love to know the other side of the coin. I would love to do FRS with it and agility.

 

[release the hounds]

People use Sch as the be all end all of bite sports, but really, it's the easiest one.

I agree to an extent and disagree heavily at the same time.

Yes it is "easy" if you cut corners and use favorable judges with less the respectable ethics, but easy is a relative term. I've been to a few club PSA trials as well, and I gotta say I wouldn't pay 2 cents for the training or some of the dogs there either. Different yes, harder?????? that's very debatable

Schutzhund is still considered to be the top dog because of popularity and longevity, and yes it has been altered some so that more people can participate, but when you get to levels beyond a club level, there is a ton more pressure on the dogs than most people think. A lot of those dogs doing PSA and ring aren't "tougher" they've been conditioned since birth to the clatter stick and bottles being thrown out in front of them. It always makes me laugh a little when people say schutzhund dogs are hit with a padded stick a thousand times and know it isn't any threat. I hate to say it, but I also pull out a clatter stick for 8 week old puppies and younger and have puppies play tug over bottles and thru them in addition to tarps and any other junk laying around. It's a conditioning thing for all of them.

The mental pressure put on upper level dogs is far more than what it might appear as well. Just like lots of people mistake energy for drive, lots of people mistake a scary looking decoy with arms flailing and screaming and doing all sorts of hoopla for pressure. I can't do it, wish I could, but don't quite have it figured out yet, but i've known a couple helpers that can get into a dogs mind with such subtle things it's amazing.


I like Ring sports and they tend to test for a quicker more reactive dog than schutzhund but that's another subject, but at high levels schutzhund is held in such high regard is because it is a tough test. You can make anything as easy or tough as you want it to be. Tracking at high levels is tough, the obedience required and the precision and the will to do it under tough conditions is not tested in any other sport. The obedience between sports is different and tough to compare. but the precision in most of the ring sports isn't close to schutzhund and everyone gives schutzhund a bad rap for being rehearsed and choreographed????? I guess you should also know that you get to cue your dog for every exercise in Ring sport before you report to the line, just because they're in a different order sometimes doesn't make it tougher.

anyway, this is getting way off topic