Youth/Malinois K9 Team

[adojrts]

One last thing. What is with this comparison between JRT's and GSD's Mals ect?? Dekka, I get the impression that you have little to no respect for our working dogs. Yes, our dogs get hurt, in real life they can get shot stabbed, break bones, get kicked, hit, and can leave a nasty scar in someone and it takes alot of work to gain control and create a reliable dog. It is definately not comparable. Why cant we all just respect "the working dog"?! it shouldnt matter what venue or who's "tougher"....

GSDlover, I don't think that is where Dekka was going with that, but I'll let her tell you.
There is respect as there should be for all working dogs regardless of size or the job.

Dan and Dana, I saw it on t.v and it was only once and with two of the dogs competing.
Keep in mind I have an eye for lameness, it was trained and honed for race horses and it has served me well also with the dogs.

I was not targetting this kind of work or sport with that question. It's actually one of my pet peeves in agility and other performance sports.
I see far to many dogs that are out of shape, fat or lame in many sports. Although it is becoming more common, too many people are still not treating their dogs as athletes. Agreed all Judges in all these sports are suppose to DQ or deny them to run/compete if the dog is lame but as we all know that often doesn't happen. At least not in agility etc, hopefully its different for you guys.
I think we can agree that those who are at the top of their respective sport typically have it figured out, therefore their dogs often win more and have longer careers. Then there are people who never would seek that level of health care for their dogs and they typically have sore dogs that also compete substandard or with shortened careers. Sad thing is, those folks often lame up at least 2 dogs before changing their mind set (if they ever do).

 

[Dekka]

One last thing. What is with this comparison between JRT's and GSD's Mals ect?? Dekka, I get the impression that you have little to no respect for our working dogs. Yes, our dogs get hurt, in real life they can get shot stabbed, break bones, get kicked, hit, and can leave a nasty scar in someone and it takes alot of work to gain control and create a reliable dog. It is definately not comparable. Why cant we all just respect "the working dog"?! it shouldnt matter what venue or who's "tougher"....

I do respect any working dog, or any highly trained one. But know you know how I feel.

I just get sick of being told by schutzhund types that because my dogs are small, and I don't do ring sports I can't possibly know what a dog in drive is like.

I have gotten this attitude here and on other forums from a lot (not all) people who have 'ring sport' breeds.

I was pointing out that schutzhund is a GAME like Earth dog trials. Like Mike Tyson in the ring they know its important but that there are rules and a method of play. Doesn't make it less respectful, heck I love watching those spectacular agility dogs and there is little danger there (comparatively)

But unless your dog goes out and actually goes out and holds real bad guys then its not apples to apples. Not saying either is more 'worthy'.

My point is my dogs have lots of drive thank you very much.

I am sure your dogs have lots of drive too, but I don't' think you constantly have to defend your big athletic GSD has it.

 

[Sch3Dana]

I was pointing out that schutzhund is a GAME like Earth dog trials. Like Mike Tyson in the ring they know its important but that there are rules and a method of play. Doesn't make it less respectful, heck I love watching those spectacular agility dogs and there is little danger there (comparatively)

I'm not at all convinced that the dogs view it that way. At a club level event with the club helper, this may well be true for many dogs. But I think there are very few dogs who can go to a new country, on a new field, with a helper who knows how to scare a dog and still think it's a game. Sure, the dog knows the routine, he knows the stick and sleeve and field set up, but he has never met that guy before in his life. I've been to events where the helpers were so scary they made my hair stand on end. And I've seen really drivey dogs choose to run rather than bite in these situations. They didn't quit playing- they quit fighting.

Each dog has their own "cryptonite", so to speak. For some of them it could be pain, but I think for more of them it is social aggression and/or certain types of stick threat (every dog being a little different with regards to what will scare them). They're fine if the aggression is a game with a friend who uses the stick in predicable ways, but put them on a stranger and that just isn't fun for most dogs anymore. As a general rule, dogs don't come off bites when the stick hits are hard- they come off when the helper is good at using the stick to intimidate the dog phychologically before the hits- most dogs let go when the stick is only threatening them. That's why it is so hard to find a really strong dog in the bitework. If it was just about play drive, we'd see border collies cleaning up at all major events. As is, it's hard to find any border collies who will bite reliably under pressure.

My point is my dogs have lots of drive thank you very much.

No doubt there are many jacks who can perform admirably in the bitework of the protection sports. I've seen a few with my own eyes and I've worked enough jacks to know what their characters are. In my mind they are really not to dis-similar from mals- nervy, aggressive and prey drive out the wazoo. Now all you need to do is start breeding the biggest one to the biggest one...

 

[Sch3Dana]

Dan and Dana, I saw it on t.v and it was only once and with two of the dogs competing.
Keep in mind I have an eye for lameness, it was trained and honed for race horses and it has served me well also with the dogs.

I was not targetting this kind of work or sport with that question. It's actually one of my pet peeves in agility and other performance sports.
I see far to many dogs that are out of shape, fat or lame in many sports.

Well, I've never seen dogs that were fat or out of shape at an big events. These are world class athletes with handlers who know how to get them to the top. At club trials I'm sure you'll find dogs in a variety of conditions depending on how knowledgeable people are about conditioning. I also have an eye for lameness and I have diagnosed dogs with pain that their handlers were completely missing. These people cared about their dogs and spent money and time on them, they just didn't notice the dog's gradual change in movement as they got older and had more and more "micro" injuries.

And, the reality is that most 5 year old schutzhund dogs have old injuries that still bother them a bit. The good ones work through it, making it harder to notice. If you diagnose lameness by slight restrictions in movement, pain in movement or a slight favoring of one limb then I would guess a high percentage of 5 year old dogs who have really been worked are "lame". But, so are most football players and probably the bulk of people performing in the olympics. I don't think it's realistic to think we're going to work dogs or people this hard and have their bodies feel like they did when they were young. Hell, I'm only 34 and my body does not feel like it did when I was young

I agree that it's important to address these issues before the pain worsens, but not everyone has access to knowledgable people who do dog chiropractic, acupuncture, physical therapy, etc. I had access to all of that in LA, but I'm not sure I could find it all here in Phoenix. My old boy had physical therapy 2x/week for 6 weeks once. It was amazing how much better he felt afterwards. But it costs me about $1000 and 40 hours of my time. Not everyone is going to be able to do that.

 

[Dekka]

LOL no thanks, if they can't get their butts in the ground after quarry IMO they have no business adding to the JRT gene pool. I don't think there is quarry big enough lol. That and I have no desire to play those games with my dogs. (now if I ever have a mal that might be another story)


Play drive is a whole 'nother thing. I have not talked about play drive at ALL in this thread. A game has rules that everyone follows. No matter how scary the helper acts there is no 'real' threat. I am sure the best dogs know that. I am sure that less than the most drivey dogs will back down. That has no bearing on what I am referring too.

I have seen agility dogs run from things in the agility ring. That doesn't mean its not a game. IMO its more of a game. They know that CAN run. Where is a dog in the earth 3+ feet down going to go if the badger/fox/coon etc is trying to rip their face off? They CAN'T back down, it would be too dangerous. There is no handler in sight to back them up.

I guess I give dogs more credit for brains. They go to a trial and KNOW there will be a 'baddy' they will have to bite. I have seen enough dogs get the sleeve and 'win'. It is a game, a serious game, to 'get' that scary guy with the sleeve. If it was for real the dog would keep going even when the sleeve came off. (or until called off)

IMO it should be trained as a game unless you actually dog police or military work with your dog.

 

[DanL]

I guess I give dogs more credit for brains. They go to a trial and KNOW there will be a 'baddy' they will have to bite. I have seen enough dogs get the sleeve and 'win'. It is a game, a serious game, to 'get' that scary guy with the sleeve. If it was for real the dog would keep going even when the sleeve came off. (or until called off)

IMO it should be trained as a game unless you actually dog police or military work with your dog.

Many dogs will continue to engage when they get the sleeve. They drop it and go after the decoy again. This is where leash control by the handler is of utmost importance. If you are off leash the decoy better be in a full suit and the dog's obedience better be good or the decoy is going to get hurt.

Gunnar got a live bite on a decoy when we sent him into a long, narrow dog run with plastic jugs on the ground. He bit the sleeve, and I got to him but had not secured him by taking the slack out of his leash, and the decoy slipped the sleeve. Gunnar immediately dropped it and rebit on the decoys unprotected thigh. He came off the bite as soon as I gave him the out command, but the damage was already done. It was no game for Gunnar that night- in an enclosed area, nearly dark out, all kinds of crap underfoot for him to deal with, a decoy giving him a lot of defensive pressure.

Another time a decoy came to my house, hid outside, and Gunnar and I went out like it was normal. The decoy jumped out from behind the pool and started splashing the water and yelling. I gave Gunnar the word, he ran to the guy, bit him, and held on. I got to him, leashed him up, the decoy slipped the sleeve, and Gunnar dropped it and went after him again. We ran him out of the yard. This wasn't a game to him either, he was as serious as I've ever seen, with a bark I'd never heard before.

This is only 2 instances I've seen with my own dog where it's clearly not a game. My dog isn't even that hard of a dog, so for him to be serious about it like this, I know that dogs that have better genetics and training than he has are not thinking of it as a game either.

 

[Dekka]

Thats great DanL (seriously I am impressed) but Gunnar is young. Are you saying that over the next few years he will think that at every practice and trial that the helper is a 'real' life and death threat?

I am not saying that some dogs are not capable of doing real world protection. (just like even though earth dog trials are NOT real hunting, I wouldn't say ch earth dogs can't hunt. Some possibly could) I am saying dogs learn that it is NOT for real. They KNOW the person is a helper. Does your dog look a person in a sleeve on the training field any different than any other person? The dog in this video KNEW the guy with the sleeve on was going to be 'fun' to get. They guy was not threatening in any way but the dog was still 'ready'.

I guess I am not expressing myself terribly well

 

[Zoom]

No doubt there are many jacks who can perform admirably in the bitework of the protection sports. I've seen a few with my own eyes and I've worked enough jacks to know what their characters are. In my mind they are really not to dis-similar from mals- nervy, aggressive and prey drive out the wazoo. Now all you need to do is start breeding the biggest one to the biggest one...

And that would be known as they day the Human Race lost control of Earth... :yikes:

 

[Sch3Dana]

I guess I give dogs more credit for brains. They go to a trial and KNOW there will be a 'baddy' they will have to bite. I have seen enough dogs get the sleeve and 'win'. It is a game, a serious game, to 'get' that scary guy with the sleeve. If it was for real the dog would keep going even when the sleeve came off. (or until called off)

IMO it should be trained as a game unless you actually dog police or military work with your dog.

The reality is that some people try to keep it a game as you are suggesting and other people train the protection more for real. But this does not change the dog's basic character and the schutzhund dogs I like could be switched "off the sleeve" in a matter of days if not minutes. My dog's brother was given one bite on an under cover sleeve one time and was a bit of a menace from then on out. All he needed was permission, not training. That dog went on to serve as a police dog and I heard from the broker that it was one of the best dogs he has ever sold. Lots of real bites on the street. My dog would never drop a sleeve to bite someone (within the context of a schutzhund training session), but that's only bc it's never been allowed. He's not playing. Maybe I can't talk you into it, but if I ever meet you, I'll let you "play" with him and I think you'll see what I mean.

The vast majority of police and military dogs are coming directly from sport titled parents or grandparents. Schutzhund isn't really a sport, it was designed as a breed test for working dogs, to get the civilian population breeding and testing dogs for police and military work. Ditto most of the other protection "sports". They are testing and breeding the dogs who will produce our working dogs. And, most breeders will not breed to a dog who is only "playing". The dogs who get the breedings are the ones who show real power and aggression in the protection. The dog on the podium may get no breedings if he is seen as too "sporty".

Lackland air force base has a military dog breeding program. The training director there goes out and tests "sport" dogs for the breeding program. Many of these dogs have had no training on undercover sleeves or muzzle work, but they pass his tests anyway and are bred to for future working dogs. When I was in Germany one guy who came to training occassionally was the training director of a famous German police kennel. I remember him mentioning that they bred to a particular sport dog. I don't know how often they go to outside dogs, but it is clearly happening. These guys, in charge of lots of tax dollar money and experienced with "real" working dogs are choosing "sport" dogs for their breeding programs. This is one of the things that makes me feel good about the sport. I believe we need good police and military dogs and our activities in the sport guarantee that we will have a broad gene pool of good working dogs for a long time to come.

 

[release the hounds]

A game has rules that everyone follows. No matter how scary the helper acts there is no 'real' threat. I am sure the best dogs know that.

as someone that has stood in front of many dogs on the other side of the lease, I disagree 100% with that statement.

Where is a dog in the earth 3+ feet down going to go if the badger/fox/coon etc is trying to rip their face off? They CAN'T back down, it would be too dangerous. There is no handler in sight to back them up.

Exactly they CAN"T back down. It's fight or flight, it has nothing to do with strength, it has to do with survival and a house cat can take on a bear in that situation, same with some of the weaker dogs i've seen, and lots of so called "real" PPD trainers call this training for weak dogs. They put a dog in a position that they can't run from and the only thing they have left is fight, for their lives. It takes a strong, very strong dog to be left a way "out" and stay to fight instead.

If it was for real the dog would keep going even when the sleeve came off. (or until called off)

who said they don't. If they aren't that's a training issue, find better trainers

Are you saying that over the next few years he will think that at every practice and trial that the helper is a 'real' life and death threat?

That shouldn't be the case either, training is about balance, no trainer I know will make a dog feel like it's fighting for its life every day or every session, not even close. It doesn't mean it can't be done, or that a strong helper can't evoke that response at a trial. They can, not all can, but enough.

 

[DanL]

Thats great DanL (seriously I am impressed) but Gunnar is young. Are you saying that over the next few years he will think that at every practice and trial that the helper is a 'real' life and death threat?

I am not saying that some dogs are not capable of doing real world protection. (just like even though earth dog trials are NOT real hunting, I wouldn't say ch earth dogs can't hunt. Some possibly could) I am saying dogs learn that it is NOT for real. They KNOW the person is a helper. Does your dog look a person in a sleeve on the training field any different than any other person? The dog in this video KNEW the guy with the sleeve on was going to be 'fun' to get. They guy was not threatening in any way but the dog was still 'ready'.

I guess I am not expressing myself terribly well

I think you are expressing yourself just fine!

I think that what will happen is we'll continue to evolve our training to keep it realistic. Things like I talked about earlier in the thread- taking him up to the ATM or the gas station, and having someone with a hidden suit attack me. I'm going to start bringing him with me to those places, opening the door, and having him stay in place, to get used to being there. I'm going to have decoys break into my house home invasion style. Multiple decoys on the field where he's sent on one and while he's running towards that one, another comes out and attacks me. Always keeping him on his toes and keeping the training mixed up. I agree- if we did the same thing all the time, he'd get bored.

As far as the guy on the field goes- I TRY to have him look at that guy the same way he looks at the people sitting in the chairs watching. That's why we're heeling around him, doing obedience, and stuff like that. Why I let the decoys pet him like everyone else does after we're done our sessions. I want him to think that no one is a threat until they show they are.

 

[Sch3Dana]

That shouldn't be the case either, training is about balance, no trainer I know will make a dog feel like it's fighting for its life every day or every session, not even close. It doesn't mean it can't be done, or that a strong helper can't evoke that response at a trial. They can, not all can, but enough.

There are dogs in the sports that are started in aggression and kept there throughout their careers. Good dogs can make their own balance through natural prey drive and a love of the fight. If they still feel like they are "fighting for their life", maybe they lack the confidence to love the fight. The best dogs won't show that they are fighting until a real opponent comes along, then you will see more power and aggression come out. But they were fighting all along- they just didn't have a reason to put much effort into it. I think you know what I mean.

Some of the best dogs I have known looked dull in training. They were fighting, but there wasn't much threat and so it wasn't all that fun for them. Put them on a strange field on a strange helper and they "fired up" and showed how much dog was really there. Take them home and they looked a little dopey and boring again. Didn't you say you're a GSD man? I think you should definitely know what I mean.

My point is, don't look at a dopey, sleeve happy dog and assume he isn't "for real". (That point is not for "release the hounds", but for other people who have never stood in front of the dogs)

 

[Dekka]

as someone that has stood in front of many dogs on the other side of the lease, I disagree 100% with that statement.



Exactly they CAN"T back down. It's fight or flight, it has nothing to do with strength,...
.

If that was the case the dog would never enter an earth again. Or keep pushing after a pipe is dug down (cause then the dog COULD leave)

I get that schutzhund is a test. Earth dog trials are supposed to be tests too. But at least JRTs are smart enough to know a 'test' from the real thing.

 

[DanL]

I don't want my dog viewing as training as fighting for his life all the time. Training is training. It should be teaching him, giving him experience in different situations, and making him confident. Not testing testing testing all the time. I think a handler and dog spend 99% of their time training for the 1% of time it counts. On a parallel, I spend 3 months training for a weightlifting meet where I'll get 3 attempts at each lift. That's a fraction of a % of the amount of reps I took to get ready for those 3 that count. If I trained every day like I was at a meet, I'd never make progress because I'm not reinforcing my foundation and practicing my form and technique that will come into play when I take those 3 attempts that count.

 

[Dekka]

I think you are expressing yourself just fine!

I think that what will happen is we'll continue to evolve our training to keep it realistic. <lots of good post snipped> I want him to think that no one is a threat until they show they are.

See to me you ARE training to keep it real. I was referring to people who do it ONLY as a sport (and I know quite a few) I have told you I am impressed by what you do with gunnar (so stop fishing for more compliments dang you :rofl1

The whole reason I waded in this direction was because many ring sport types (and some are still doing it in this thread) act like their dogs are the ONLY dogs with drive and do the only 'real' things with their dogs.

As I posted before I am sick of people looking at my dogs and dismissing them as not serious dogs (or 'small and useless') because they are under 20 pounds and cute.

Anyone here read the terrierman blog?

 

[Sch3Dana]

As I posted before I am sick of people looking at my dogs and dismissing them as not serious dogs (or 'small and useless') because they are under 20 pounds and cute.

Maybe you need to prey one up on a man instead of rats so you can set people straight :rofl1:

I, for one, am not messing with anyone's terrier. One of the hardest bites I ever got (when not wearing protective equipment) was from some 20 pound mixed breed terrier who was not going to have anyone near his food. Thank God for heavy leather work boots.

So, what's the terrierman blog?

 

[DanL]

The whole reason I waded in this direction was because many ring sport types (and some are still doing it in this thread) act like their dogs are the ONLY dogs with drive and do the only 'real' things with their dogs.

And the truth of the matter is, Gunnar is a dog who would not do well in a ring sport type of venue, and the people who do that type of work that is geared towards prey driven dogs like Mals would be the 1st to tell me that. He's got way too much defensive drive and not enough prey drive to get him past some of the things they do. I'm going to work him as best I can, build him up so he can be the best his genetic ability will allow. He doesn't have to run 50 yards and catch someone. All he needs to do is bite someone when they try to come into my space in an aggressive manner. If a "watch" command gets someone to move on and leave us alone, he did his job. It doesn't always have to end in a bite for it to end in a win for the dog.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Dekka, its not about who's dog has drive. I honestly dont think you've seen a GSD with loads of drive, but I have seen JRT's and they are fiesty little dogs. but the main point being there is a huge difference between 20lbs and 80lbs.

Just yesturday I was hiking with my dog, and I had him tied to me (police style leash). He saw a squirell, and off he went, I was dragged UP a hill (and I aint small). And he's not even that big, but very powerful. JRTs are strong for their size but a larger dog usually equates more devastating in most situations.. Everyone knows your dogs have drive, but you should know that our dogs have drive as well. You go on about JRT's all the time, and us with "athletic" GSD's should be able to do the same.

 

[Sch3Dana]

He doesn't have to run 50 yards and catch someone. All he needs to do is bite someone when they try to come into my space in an aggressive manner. If a "watch" command gets someone to move on and leave us alone, he did his job. It doesn't always have to end in a bite for it to end in a win for the dog.

I would argue that when a personal protection dog actually bites someone, someone usually did something wrong. The dog should be a deterrent so that you never actually end up in a physical confrontation.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I would argue that when a personal protection dog actually bites someone, someone usually did something wrong. The dog should be a deterrent so that you never actually end up in a physical confrontation.

So basically any dog can be a ppd??