Would you declaw?

[milos_mommy]

Release the Hounds...you may be right comparing spaying and neutering on a few levels (such as both are surgeries and carry danger) but spaying and neutering is NOT done for human convience. It is done because of medical, behavioral, and emotional benefits for the individual animal and society which can not be achieved in any other way. Declawing has zero medical, behavior, or emotional benefits for the individual animal and the benefits for it's family can be achieved using other methods.

 

[PoodleMommy]

There are some of you arguing against declawing who let/leave your beloved pet outside to face hazards more frightening and dangerous than having been declawed.

exactly.

 

[Punkygirl0101]

Atleast they can climb..and haven't been mutilated is all I have to say.

 

[Jules]

I am so late here... but I still want to say.. that a cat has claws and it will scratch (you) occasionally. If you don't like the idea of that, do not get a cat.

One of our cats eats plants. I can not have a live plant in this house, anywhere. Should I have her teeth pulled now?! No. There are certain things you can not have or do when you have pets.

And they may pee and poop on the floor occasionally. They may bite/nibble/step on your husband's testicles/your face/foot/or scratch you. Maybe you can't or don't want to risk having that awesome leather couch because every now and then your cat scratches it. Maybe you don't buy those satin sheets anymore. Maybe you'll have to give up your little sporty car because you are having transportation issues.

What I mean is that there are lots of little sacrifices that come with animal ownership. Why are we trying to make it as easy and comfortable for us as possible when we don't want to accept the sacrifices and cons that come with owning an animal? I can not see how cutting the tip of a toe off to save your curtains could ever be justified.

The return is so much bigger than anything I had to give up.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

[PoodleMommy]

Atleast they can climb..and haven't been mutilated is all I have to say.

but your risking them getting killed by a car or other animal.

Your just making the point with that statement that what you do is right and what others do is wrong.

 

[bubbatd]

No ramble ! The truth !

 

[Punkygirl0101]

letting a cat outside is not forcing them to go through unnecessary painful surgery to save my furniture. Thats my point. I have lost ONE cat to a car, and that was about 6 years ago at my old house.

 

[release the hounds]

It is done because of medical, behavioral, and emotional benefits for the individual animal and society which can not be achieved in any other way.

Medical, sometimes, sometimes for behavioral, mostly because we has humans don't want to deal with that behavior. i've dealt with more than enough intact males and females to know they did not "need" to be fixed for behavioral reasons. people just need to take the time and deal with them. Emotional benefits? Maybe in our own minds.

I fully realize that most people have themselves convinced that S/N is very important for the health of the animal and certain groups push that propaganda at every chance.

You've just made my point completely by saying we don't do it for human convenience we do it for behavior reasons. What behavior reasons? we don't want a mature male around? why not? We don't like roaming tendencies or marking behavior or leg humping or "dominance"??? Those are always the "behavior" reasons given, i can google behavior reduction and neutering and what do you think I'll see given as reasons? All those that deal with human convenience.

Because certainly not every male dog grows up with those tendencies if it still has it's testicles, and even ones that might can certainly be managed with proper training. and if you wait to see by then its too late, because once the testicles have had their effects on the maturing brain, removing them will have none of the behavioral "fixes" attributed to them. So how is it any different for somebody to neuter their male puppy because they don't want to deal with behavior issues later, any different than a cat owner that declaws a cat cause they don't want to deal with cat behavior and claws?

Don't bring up the testicular cancer thing either, it's rare and there are types that are at risk, and the majority of them are not. and besides, for every benefit of removing an organ so it can't get cancer, you're causing a detriment by removing a part of the endocrine system of a developing animal. I could use the same arguement used against those that have declawed a cat. if you don't want a dog with testicular cancer, don't get a dog.

 

[Dekka]

I think those are separate issues. All pets would be 'safest' if kept all the time in crates.. but thats not the best plan.

My parents have cats that go out with supervision. They have a large lot that backs on the forest. Their one cat strolls down to the pool with them and lies in the sun while my mom does laps. Then strolls back up when she comes up. Yes he could run off and get hurt. But then he could chew a cord in the house too.

I am ok with people who do it who have tried other things or if there is a 'real' reason (like the very frail mother) tho I personally would at least try the cat at home away from mom for a while first and clip the claws down.. If your cat claws things and you try and train it or clip it.

I really don't see why people would WANT to remove their cats toes. I mean if it was a last resort.. OK. BUt I know so many people who that is the first thing they want to do.

More and more vets in my area are refusing or trying to talk people out of it.

 

[PoodleMommy]

letting a cat outside is not forcing them to go through unnecessary painful surgery to save my furniture. Thats my point. I have lost ONE cat to a car, and that was about 6 years ago at my old house.

And I have lost ZERO to declawing.

The average life expectancy for an indoor only cat is way higher than that of an indoor/outdoor or only outdoor cat. That is a fact driven statistic.

This again goes to the point that what you do with your animals others may not agree with... many may think it is cruel to allow a cat to go outside and risk getting killed, but you choose to do it for whatever reason and that works for you and you dont hear me saying... if you are going to let the cat out maybe you shouldnt have gotten it.

 

[release the hounds]

You might also be able to buy the kind you can install in the walls. I dunno how expensive that is, though, so it might be a silly idea.

Another idea for the entertainment center - one with doors, so you can close it.

Right now they are mounted "on" the wall, but that leaves the inviting ledge.

I"m just going to build a big center, that way I can get all the cables and stuff hidden better and consolidate some of the surround and theater stuff. I planned on doors, that's why i'm settin the TV back just a bit, no ledge and I can mount doors.

 

[milos_mommy]

Medical, sometimes, sometimes for behavioral, mostly because we has humans don't want to deal with that behavior. i've dealt with more than enough intact males and females to know they did not "need" to be fixed for behavioral reasons. people just need to take the time and deal with them. Emotional benefits? Maybe in our own minds.

I fully realize that most people have themselves convinced that S/N is very important for the health of the animal and certain groups push that propaganda at every chance.

You've just made my point completely by saying we don't do it for human convenience we do it for behavior reasons. What behavior reasons? we don't want a mature male around? why not? We don't like roaming tendencies or marking behavior or leg humping or "dominance"??? Those are always the "behavior" reasons given, i can google behavior reduction and neutering and what do you think I'll see given as reasons? All those that deal with human convenience.

Because certainly not every male dog grows up with those tendencies if it still has it's testicles, and even ones that might can certainly be managed with proper training. and if you wait to see by then its too late, because once the testicles have had their effects on the maturing brain, removing them will have none of the behavioral "fixes" attributed to them. So how is it any different for somebody to neuter their male puppy because they don't want to deal with behavior issues later, any different than a cat owner that declaws a cat cause they don't want to deal with cat behavior and claws?

Don't bring up the testicular cancer thing either, it's rare and there are types that are at risk, and the majority of them are not. and besides, for every benefit of removing an organ so it can't get cancer, you're causing a detriment by removing a part of the endocrine system of a developing animal. I could use the same arguement used against those that have declawed a cat. if you don't want a dog with testicular cancer, don't get a dog.

First of all, I don't think neutering should be done before a dog is mature.
Secondly, cats can be taught not to scratch furniture or people.
Dogs can be taught not to fight other dogs, but not if it's a hormonal problem. They don't speak english, you can't teach them that the intense desire to kill another animal is only testosterone and they should chill out or they might come home missing an ear. You can't show them petfinder and explain that sex makes babies that people don't want. It's like taking a starving dog, showing him a piece of poisoned meat, and saying "oh, no, it's bad for you."

Declawing doesn't prevent any medical problems in cats (as far as I know...but I do know it can CAUSE medical problems). Maybe neutering doesn't prevent cancer every time, but declawing doesn't prevent cancer any time. There are many other health problems that are prevented by neutering as well, such as cysts and uterine infections.

If my dog was not neutered, he would be aggressive towards other male dogs because of hormones that could not be trained out of him. I would not be able to take him hiking, or to the store, or to the park.

The desire to mate caused by hormones is something stressful to a dog who isn't permitted to mate. They can be injured in dog fights or trying to escape. Females in heat need to be locked away from others, pace, whine, and act generally stressed.

I've never seen a cat stressed out by it's own claws.

 

[release the hounds]

you know how many dogs that were NOT fixed i've had or trained? None of them were exhibiting any behaviors any different than thousands of dogs that have been fixed. None of them were more uncontrollable or stressed out because they couldn't mate. BTW even neutered males at times react to females in heat, testicles or not. Just like many intact males do not react differently at all around a female in heat.

of course you can't train out hormones, just like you can't replace the good things they do either when you take away part of the endocrine system. take a few physiology classes and see how important these things are. But i've also seen enough fixed animals with aggression issues to know that fixing them isn't a "fix". It's an excuse to get people to S/N their pets to cut down on pet overpopulation.

Dogs get stressed out sometimes cause they can't chase the squirrel across the road, BFD, they need to learn to deal with stress. it's life, stress happens, i'm not going to entertain that idea as another valid reason to neuter a dog. it's about population control. Very rarely is it for something medical, the vast majority is done for human convenience.

 

[corgipower]

Just most of the time

Here kiddies don't forget to vaccinate, crop, dock, declaw!

It's all for the good of your dog/cat *cough*mypocket*cough*

I know there are lots of good vets out there, but I imagine a lot are driven by $$$$££££

The day my vet puts money ahead of my animal's best interests is the day I find a new vet.

I think those are separate issues. All pets would be 'safest' if kept all the time in crates.. but thats not the best plan.

Well, not always...If there's a flood or a fire there's no chance of escaping

When I was a kid we always had a couple of cats. They went outside all the time. The only problem we had was with one cat who had wander lust and would disappear for days at a time. The only way I would own a cat again would include needing to live someplace where I could let them go outside.

 

[tessa_s212]

All I have to say about the comparison to spay/neuter is that two dogs that were very close to me would be DEAD right now if it weren't for spay/neuter. Poor pepper had to go through so many surgeries. If my mother had simply never bred her and spayed/neutered at an earlier age, she wouldn't have developed the cancer. We were very lucky because the vet caught it very early on when we finally did decide to spay/neuter. And the other dog, while she was not my own, I still love her dearly. Shortly after I left my former dog training club, poor Tip almost died from a pyometria.

There is no doubt in my mind that there a certain incredible health benefits when it comes to spay/neuter, and my dogs will be spayed/neutered always for that reason.



corgipower, unfortunately sometimes there are just NO vets in the area. You have to pick between them and just settle. My vet does declaws, and does encourage it. But he's the best vet in the area. I'd likely have to travel hours to get to a fantastic, spectacular vet that would never push yearly vaccines, declawing, science diet, and the like.


As for outdoor cats, that is an entirely different debate. However I am not so naive to believe that the only good homes are those that keep cats indoors 24/7. Seems to me many indoor only cats always sit staring out windows, as if they were in a prison. At least dog get walks. Cats get imprisoned. I will adopt to indoor/outdoor homes, so long as they are primarily indoor and always indoor when the owners are not home. But certainly it doesn't make a person an irresponsible owner to have an indoor/outdoor cat.

 

[corgipower]

corgipower, unfortunately sometimes there are just NO vets in the area. You have to pick between them and just settle. My vet does declaws, and does encourage it. But he's the best vet in the area. I'd likely have to travel hours to get to a fantastic, spectacular vet that would never push yearly vaccines, declawing, science diet, and the like.

I would move if there wasn't a vet up to my standard within a reasonable distance. But I know I'm a bit over the top that way.

 

[LauraLeigh]

Jumping in again, much later in the convo.... Just to say that while I would not declaw, I know some great people with much loved Cats who have.... I think that for many people when they work their *Butts* off to get that $4000 dollar Sectional Sofa set that they really wanted, it is not as shallow as it is being made to seem to want to protect it. I know in one case that they declawed their kitten when they spayed her for that exact reason.... I don't think that makes them horrible people, in fact I *know* they are not and give their pets a life of luxury and would give a friend in need the clothes off their backs....

I think that sometimes we have to be able to be passionate about something and firmly believe our point of view, but not to the extreme that we think unless You believe what We believe then you cannot possibly love or care about your pets like we do..... That's simply not true....

*general we & you not directed at anyone in particular at all*

 

[Romy]

The average life expectancy for an indoor only cat is way higher than that of an indoor/outdoor or only outdoor cat. That is a fact driven statistic.

Where are you getting this statistic? Baba lived to be 26, and she was our indoor outdoor cat. She outlived all of her kittens (she only had one litter), three of which were strictly indoor cats. She's the oldest cat I personally know of. The next was Old Red, my grandma's cat. He lived to be 23, and he was indoor outdoor. We had one strictly indoor cat (he was the only one that didn't lick butter in the night so my dad kept him in) and he died when he was 7 from an infection on his paw that came from a fan blade.

My grandma had two indoor cats after Old Red died, and both of them, halfway through their lives, bolted out the door, got lost, and were never heard from again.

Again, just wondering where this statistic comes from because I hear it all the time, it is contrary to my personal experience, and I have never seen the actual source for this "fact driven statistic" cited.

 

[PoodleMommy]

Where are you getting this statistic? Baba lived to be 26, and she was our indoor outdoor cat. She outlived all of her kittens (she only had one litter), three of which were strictly indoor cats. She's the oldest cat I personally know of. The next was Old Red, my grandma's cat. He lived to be 23, and he was indoor outdoor. We had one strictly indoor cat (he was the only one that didn't lick butter in the night so my dad kept him in) and he died when he was 7 from an infection on his paw that came from a fan blade.

My grandma had two indoor cats after Old Red died, and both of them, halfway through their lives, bolted out the door, got lost, and were never heard from again.

Again, just wondering where this statistic comes from because I hear it all the time, it is contrary to my personal experience, and I have never seen the actual source for this "fact driven statistic" cited.

if you do the research you can find plenty of sources, from all different places. Google it and pick the source you like best.

The stats are that indoor cats live 12 - 18 years and outdoor cats live 4-5.
The way you find the Average of something however is to add up ALL the data... a few extreme cases would be considered outliers and probably not factored into the data.

Im really glad your cat lived a long life... and again I wasnt saying you shouldnt let your cat outside but I was saying that it CAN cause more damage than declawing and does cause more deaths... so saying your against one and for the other is counter intuitive.

 

[corgipower]

if you do the research you can find plenty of sources, from all different places. Google it and pick the source you like best.

This one