Why crop ears?
- Thread starter Fran27
- Start date
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i have mentioned obedience on wuite a few threads of this forum. I didnt mention it here when referencing schutzhund because anyone who knows what schutzhund is knows that obedience is most of schutzhund, I didnt explain that earlier because the thread is not about schutzhund.
lets see, ones I have titled. rover vom fidis des lupis got a sch III. tanker von freisenblick got a sch II befor ehaving to be put down after being poisoned. dior van corsalabroek is in training now. knows as little about dogs in general as I do??? okay, whatever you say.
lets see, ones I have titled. rover vom fidis des lupis got a sch III. tanker von freisenblick got a sch II befor ehaving to be put down after being poisoned. dior van corsalabroek is in training now. knows as little about dogs in general as I do??? okay, whatever you say.
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Congratulations
Those SCH titles are hard to come by, for sure.
Your response to the What makes a great dog for breeding was totally without any modicum of correctness. That is why I said you don't know dogs IN GENERAL. Obedience and Schutzhund are very specialized areas, and require no knowledge of the genetics of breeding. And a dog having or not having a title or titles at either end of its name means nothing as far as its quality as breeding stock. Conformation is vitally important. A dog that does not meet the breed standard is not physically going to be able to do what it is bred to do as well as a dog that meets the standard to a "T". There is a physiological for every requirement of a breed standard.
Again, congrats on your accomplishments. Do you have photos of these fellows on the web?
Those SCH titles are hard to come by, for sure.
Your response to the What makes a great dog for breeding was totally without any modicum of correctness. That is why I said you don't know dogs IN GENERAL. Obedience and Schutzhund are very specialized areas, and require no knowledge of the genetics of breeding. And a dog having or not having a title or titles at either end of its name means nothing as far as its quality as breeding stock. Conformation is vitally important. A dog that does not meet the breed standard is not physically going to be able to do what it is bred to do as well as a dog that meets the standard to a "T". There is a physiological for every requirement of a breed standard.
Again, congrats on your accomplishments. Do you have photos of these fellows on the web?
There's a theory, or it could be fact, that many of the older working breeds, Rotties for instance, had their tails docked as a sign that they were a working dog and therefore exempt from certain taxes at the time. People get used to a look, as has been pointed out about the Dobes, and so the trend remained. Aussies who are not born with the natural bob-tail have them docked to fufill the breed standard that arose from (most likely) the practice of ranchers who docked their tails to either avoid the tail feathering becoming caught in brush and possibly trapping the dogs, or for hygenic purposes like the sheep they were herding. Full Aussie tails have feathering on them like Goldens. Very hard to take care of out on the range.
My best friend who bred and raised mini schnauzers said that she was all for cropping her dog's ears because of the higher risk of infection. She also went on to relate a story about a fellow breeder she knew who had a puppy with natural ears. One day the dog started shaking it's head and a terrible smell was emenating from it's ears. When she lifted the ear flap she found an infestation of maggots. Why or how the dog's ears got that bad, neither I nor my friend know. You'd think people would clean out the ears better.
My best friend who bred and raised mini schnauzers said that she was all for cropping her dog's ears because of the higher risk of infection. She also went on to relate a story about a fellow breeder she knew who had a puppy with natural ears. One day the dog started shaking it's head and a terrible smell was emenating from it's ears. When she lifted the ear flap she found an infestation of maggots. Why or how the dog's ears got that bad, neither I nor my friend know. You'd think people would clean out the ears better.
Ok sorry I skipped a few pages...
Ok, I got my answer. Because people want to. Well, I haven't changed my mind, I think it's pretty lame that people give surgery to their pets for LOOKS. Like someone said, if they don't like their looks, they should get another dog! Same thing for people who have their baby's ears pierced by the way, I have no respect at all for those people. If my kids ever want their ears pierced, fine, but I will do it if THEY ask me.
Doberluv, thanks for the link, it was interesting. I can see that there are reasons to do it when the dogs are bred as guard dogs. I see none for companion dogs however.
Tail_chaser, I agree, it's everyone's right to prefer one way or another, and I respect their opinion, but I'll admit I have a hard time respecting the fact that some people will change their dog's appearance just for looks. As you say, to each his own.
Ok, I got my answer. Because people want to. Well, I haven't changed my mind, I think it's pretty lame that people give surgery to their pets for LOOKS. Like someone said, if they don't like their looks, they should get another dog! Same thing for people who have their baby's ears pierced by the way, I have no respect at all for those people. If my kids ever want their ears pierced, fine, but I will do it if THEY ask me.
Doberluv, thanks for the link, it was interesting. I can see that there are reasons to do it when the dogs are bred as guard dogs. I see none for companion dogs however.
Tail_chaser, I agree, it's everyone's right to prefer one way or another, and I respect their opinion, but I'll admit I have a hard time respecting the fact that some people will change their dog's appearance just for looks. As you say, to each his own.
In the case of a Doberman, this is not a guard dog. Dobermans are referred to and were bred as personal protection dogs. There is a difference. They don't go out in some junk yard all by themselves all night and guard rusty old cars. They stay glued to their family or person and stand by, prepared to protect if need be. They do this naturally without any specific protection training. First and formost they are a companion. If they are not raised in very close proximity with their owner, raised in a loving, companionable, bonded, close way, they will not have a very good reason to protect their people. Dogs who are mistreated, neglected.... or don't have a companionable relationdhip with their owner are not good, reliable protection dogs. So, I don't understand the distinction that has been made by a few here.....of a protection dog and a companion dog. They are one in the same. They are both.
My Doberman, Lyric is the love of my life. I love this dog so much. And he is sooooo "into" me. He is my constant, velcro companion. We work on obedience and agility, go on hikes together, go everywhere together. He is my baby and sits his 95 LBS on my lap. LOL (or tries to) There's usually one leg or his chin on me. We are very, closely bonded, a closer bond than I've ever had with a dog, even though I loved all my dogs. He has also shown his ability to protect me on a few occasions. He is always ready and alert. He can't lie down in the evening and let sounds outside slip by him. He's up in a flash, muscled up at every sound. If I get up from the couch, occasionally he'll stay put, but more often, he'll follow me where I'm going. I can't go out on the deck by myself and close him inside with me out there to have a cigerette without his whining and "neeeeeeeeding" to be out there with me. The minute I reach for my cigerette pack, that dog is on his feet quicker than you can blink an eye.
So, in other words, Lyric is my loving companion but he is also a protection/working dog. If he gets into it with someone or some wild animal, he is built compactly, squarely without anything combersome or anything hanging off of him to get in the way or get hurt. He hears things and knows quite accurately where the sound is coming from, something a lot of dogs are not so good at. (pinpointing direction of sound)
Dobermans are extremely atheletic, agile, quick, very fast runners. (Greyhound in their background)They are high energy and will not back down. They will not avoid hurting themselves if they need to do something in the line of duty. They're pushy, demanding and persistant. These traits contribute to the higher possibility of them getting themselves into a fix or getting hurt.
Yes, the ears are for looks too. These dogs look sharp. They were bred to be sharp, aggressive (when needed) They were not designed to look soft, fluffy and tolerant like a hound dog. Looking sharp, with those upright ears and looking the way their reputation has it, prevents a lot of mistakes from people. When an intruder or an attacker sees a Doberman, they tend to change their mind about what they may have been planning. Preventing contact with a bad guy is always the better choice.
Looking like a Doberman also prevents stupid people from running up to your dog, thinking it's an outgoing, friendly hound or hunting dog. They are not outgoing. Dobermans are reserved around stragers, not enthralled with meeting them, although will stand nicely and accept a pat. (that's the way they're suppose to be....it's how Lyric is too) But they would not appreciate the way some people act around dogs, the stupid ones. If a Doberman looks like a Doberman, people will tend to be more respectful or careful.
There are all kinds of good reasons for cropping and docking besides looking pretty.
My Doberman, Lyric is the love of my life. I love this dog so much. And he is sooooo "into" me. He is my constant, velcro companion. We work on obedience and agility, go on hikes together, go everywhere together. He is my baby and sits his 95 LBS on my lap. LOL (or tries to) There's usually one leg or his chin on me. We are very, closely bonded, a closer bond than I've ever had with a dog, even though I loved all my dogs. He has also shown his ability to protect me on a few occasions. He is always ready and alert. He can't lie down in the evening and let sounds outside slip by him. He's up in a flash, muscled up at every sound. If I get up from the couch, occasionally he'll stay put, but more often, he'll follow me where I'm going. I can't go out on the deck by myself and close him inside with me out there to have a cigerette without his whining and "neeeeeeeeding" to be out there with me. The minute I reach for my cigerette pack, that dog is on his feet quicker than you can blink an eye.
So, in other words, Lyric is my loving companion but he is also a protection/working dog. If he gets into it with someone or some wild animal, he is built compactly, squarely without anything combersome or anything hanging off of him to get in the way or get hurt. He hears things and knows quite accurately where the sound is coming from, something a lot of dogs are not so good at. (pinpointing direction of sound)
Dobermans are extremely atheletic, agile, quick, very fast runners. (Greyhound in their background)They are high energy and will not back down. They will not avoid hurting themselves if they need to do something in the line of duty. They're pushy, demanding and persistant. These traits contribute to the higher possibility of them getting themselves into a fix or getting hurt.
Yes, the ears are for looks too. These dogs look sharp. They were bred to be sharp, aggressive (when needed) They were not designed to look soft, fluffy and tolerant like a hound dog. Looking sharp, with those upright ears and looking the way their reputation has it, prevents a lot of mistakes from people. When an intruder or an attacker sees a Doberman, they tend to change their mind about what they may have been planning. Preventing contact with a bad guy is always the better choice.
Looking like a Doberman also prevents stupid people from running up to your dog, thinking it's an outgoing, friendly hound or hunting dog. They are not outgoing. Dobermans are reserved around stragers, not enthralled with meeting them, although will stand nicely and accept a pat. (that's the way they're suppose to be....it's how Lyric is too) But they would not appreciate the way some people act around dogs, the stupid ones. If a Doberman looks like a Doberman, people will tend to be more respectful or careful.
There are all kinds of good reasons for cropping and docking besides looking pretty.
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I agree with you doberluv, about distinguishing companion from protection in a way. I consider both my trained gsd and un-trained puppy acd to be both companion and protector. the acd (when she is mature) will surely be a protection dog to an extent. I would not expect an un-trained dog to follow through with an attack if the attacker fights back. some will, some wont. I would expect my trained gsd to follow through with an attack even if the bad guy or bad animal fights back and injures him.
these terms (companion, guard, protection dog etc) can mean different things to different people. as I said I consider my dogs companions and protectors, companion/friend/family member 1st. I also could say my dogs are guard dogs because they will guard my home or car, me or my wife etc. even though when I think of the term "guard dog" I think of a dog like the caucasian ovcharka (spelling?) that was bred to live amongst a flock or herd and guard them, most often without the owner present to give orders or directions.
companion is a general term that I dont beleive should be a category (such as gun dog, herding dog, etc) because I would consider any dog I ever have a companion. even an independant breed that wants to be outside without me as much or more than inside with me. I'll still love it and consider it a friend.
and even some toy dogs and some of the gentlest breeds will bark to alert you to an intruder, or possible intruder and in a way are guard dogs because they alert you. and even with dogs pred as guardians or protectors, without training some will protect and some wont. without training them you dont know untill something happens. I have said many times that an untrained dog wont follow through with an attack, thats a generalization of course. in my opinion it is true because training is more of a garauntee that they will. I feel more comfortable knowing that my german shepherd is trained in protection and highly trained in obedience. he has been exposed to attacking the agitator and being swung around while gripping the sleeve, and having starter pistols go off. he has been obedience trained to the point that he can be charging the bad guy (on the schutzhund field) and in mid charge I can tell him to lie down, he'll skid to a stop on his belly. mid bite/fight I can command him to heel and he will release and circle me into the heel position. as I said I consider my wifes australian cattle dog to be a protection dog...she will bark and let us know someone is outside the door, or breaking in. of course shes only around 13 weeks old right now (rescue, age is an estimate), so Im talking when she is mature. would she bite and try to bring down an intruder or attacker??? I would like to think so, and she is a protective loyal breed, and she instinctively goes for the heels/ankles so she might severe the achilles tendon. but I wouldnt count on her attacking and following through. only because without training her in protection work I just dont know.
luckily most people who are considering breaking into a home, or in the process of breaking in, hear a dog or 2 barking will wet their pants and run. or atleast realize that anyone in the house or neighbors may have heard the dogs barking and could investigate or call the police.
Id also like to say...I didnt intend for any of my posts here to sound confrontational or like personal attacks. I was trying to have a conversation without anyone getting angry. often threads can get heated without getting mean. if anyone took anything I said as rude, mean or as an attack I apologize. I merely intended to get my perspective out there and defend it, and to hear others sides of the issue and hopefully learn something myself, as well as help others who may have never read anything about the topic learn something.
I hope this post made sense. I was being distracted by a hyper puppy and an annoying cat. if something I said isnt explained clearly I'll be happy to clarify.
these terms (companion, guard, protection dog etc) can mean different things to different people. as I said I consider my dogs companions and protectors, companion/friend/family member 1st. I also could say my dogs are guard dogs because they will guard my home or car, me or my wife etc. even though when I think of the term "guard dog" I think of a dog like the caucasian ovcharka (spelling?) that was bred to live amongst a flock or herd and guard them, most often without the owner present to give orders or directions.
companion is a general term that I dont beleive should be a category (such as gun dog, herding dog, etc) because I would consider any dog I ever have a companion. even an independant breed that wants to be outside without me as much or more than inside with me. I'll still love it and consider it a friend.
and even some toy dogs and some of the gentlest breeds will bark to alert you to an intruder, or possible intruder and in a way are guard dogs because they alert you. and even with dogs pred as guardians or protectors, without training some will protect and some wont. without training them you dont know untill something happens. I have said many times that an untrained dog wont follow through with an attack, thats a generalization of course. in my opinion it is true because training is more of a garauntee that they will. I feel more comfortable knowing that my german shepherd is trained in protection and highly trained in obedience. he has been exposed to attacking the agitator and being swung around while gripping the sleeve, and having starter pistols go off. he has been obedience trained to the point that he can be charging the bad guy (on the schutzhund field) and in mid charge I can tell him to lie down, he'll skid to a stop on his belly. mid bite/fight I can command him to heel and he will release and circle me into the heel position. as I said I consider my wifes australian cattle dog to be a protection dog...she will bark and let us know someone is outside the door, or breaking in. of course shes only around 13 weeks old right now (rescue, age is an estimate), so Im talking when she is mature. would she bite and try to bring down an intruder or attacker??? I would like to think so, and she is a protective loyal breed, and she instinctively goes for the heels/ankles so she might severe the achilles tendon. but I wouldnt count on her attacking and following through. only because without training her in protection work I just dont know.
luckily most people who are considering breaking into a home, or in the process of breaking in, hear a dog or 2 barking will wet their pants and run. or atleast realize that anyone in the house or neighbors may have heard the dogs barking and could investigate or call the police.
Id also like to say...I didnt intend for any of my posts here to sound confrontational or like personal attacks. I was trying to have a conversation without anyone getting angry. often threads can get heated without getting mean. if anyone took anything I said as rude, mean or as an attack I apologize. I merely intended to get my perspective out there and defend it, and to hear others sides of the issue and hopefully learn something myself, as well as help others who may have never read anything about the topic learn something.
I hope this post made sense. I was being distracted by a hyper puppy and an annoying cat. if something I said isnt explained clearly I'll be happy to clarify.
I can't just ignore the post and move on becuase it involves the breed I care very much about and one day it could be someone like you choosing if cropping is ok. Its one of the issues you can't just be quiet about. I just find it odd your so into schutzend but your against cropping. my trainer and the club owner up here both have cropped dogs. My trainer actually had one of his surgically corrected. I doubt your knowledge on this if you are really that involved in it,I have just looked into it but I still know why they are cropped and docked. It is your right to not want your dogs cropped but don't push it on anyone else. The extra bell part of the ear that is removed with the crop is what they would get caught on. I'm not some idiot that just got my dogs ears cut up I really took the time looking into it.
ANd for some reason my trainer switched it from schutzend to just personel protection training but I'm not sure why he did that. Like I said I just started getting into it and then started looking into agility. Which every dobe in that has been cropped to that i have seen so far.
ANd for some reason my trainer switched it from schutzend to just personel protection training but I'm not sure why he did that. Like I said I just started getting into it and then started looking into agility. Which every dobe in that has been cropped to that i have seen so far.
Well, actually a Doberman with correct Doberman temperament will not back down when in a confrontation with an attacker. This is something they are well known for. It's in their description. And my dog was not about to back down when we had an incident. So, I have to disagree with you there. Perhaps that is true with some breeds.
And I agree with you about these dogs, yours and mine both protecting our stuff too. Yes, personal protection dog and personal as well as real property (real estate) protection dog. LOL. They do it all.
But one thing that helps in most all cases, I suspect is their reputation. People are afraid of Dobermans and some are of GSDs. I had the most friendly, UNaloof GSD. He was big boned, gorgeous and friendly as my Lab. LOL. But still.....people thought twice. With my big black Doberman who is not as friendly as my Lab, civil, steady, but reserved, an intruder would only think once. (Of course, where I live now, it's pretty dang crime free)
And I agree with you about these dogs, yours and mine both protecting our stuff too. Yes, personal protection dog and personal as well as real property (real estate) protection dog. LOL. They do it all.
But one thing that helps in most all cases, I suspect is their reputation. People are afraid of Dobermans and some are of GSDs. I had the most friendly, UNaloof GSD. He was big boned, gorgeous and friendly as my Lab. LOL. But still.....people thought twice. With my big black Doberman who is not as friendly as my Lab, civil, steady, but reserved, an intruder would only think once. (Of course, where I live now, it's pretty dang crime free)
Professional criminals have said often - and loudly - that although an alarm system is rarely a deterrent, a dog is the one thing that will make them decide to choose an easier target. There are just too many variables for a professional to want to risk when faced with a dog. That includes not only burglars, but home invasion types as well. And homes are broken into all the time BECAUSE guns are kept in the home - you don't find too many breaking into a house for the dog, lol! Of course, if you're dealing with stone-crazies nothing is going to deter them from trying. Even a small dog can be enough of a distraction to give you a chance to defend yourself though.
You'd find the reaction of a Fila with a proper temperament interesting, I think. The correct reaction to a firearm is to rush the wielder and disarm him. It's actually part of the temperament testing for the breed and is supposed to be instinctual, not trained.
You'd find the reaction of a Fila with a proper temperament interesting, I think. The correct reaction to a firearm is to rush the wielder and disarm him. It's actually part of the temperament testing for the breed and is supposed to be instinctual, not trained.
Good points Renee. Yes, dogs will deter criminals. If I only had my Chihuahas, that would almost be enough. They have bionic hearing and the most annoying barks. That alone would drive a horse from it's oats. That warning is really all I'd need to have time to grab my .38. LOL. I really would prefer that my Doberman wouldn't get into a confrontation with a criminal. He could get shot or stabbed.
And it's interesting about Filas. Yes, there are breeds who have it bred into them naturally to protect and not back down. And there are breeds who need a little more training. Of course, not all Dobermans are correct or perfect in their temperament. And I'm sure it's the same with all breeds. Some are excellent representations and some are not.
And it's interesting about Filas. Yes, there are breeds who have it bred into them naturally to protect and not back down. And there are breeds who need a little more training. Of course, not all Dobermans are correct or perfect in their temperament. And I'm sure it's the same with all breeds. Some are excellent representations and some are not.
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yes of course, it is supposed to be part of the temperament, but without training testing you just cant say for certain that they ALL have that temperament. a gsd is not supposed to back down from a threat anymore than a doberman or rottweiler is, but you can be more certain they will follow through if you have trained them. I dont doubt at all doberluv that your dobie wouldnt back down unless he/she received an injury so severe that he couldnt continue. strider is the same way. many dogs (gsd's, dobes and rotts) when they first start schutzhund or personal protection dont have the confidence to follow through, some wont even bite. it is supposed to be in the temperament that they will protect, and follow through with an attack unless crippled by the attacker. but even if the dogs parents were temperament tested, they can produce a mix of temperaments in their pups, some may have more drive than the parents, some may have less. thats why I think schutzhund is so important to the breeds that are supposed to be guardians/protectors. if you judge a dog by conformation and breed it to an equally judged dog, you dont know if they are as protective as they are meant to be. I think breeding dogs should be titled in more than one field.
as I said, some dogs will have the temperament to follow through without training but you wont know for sure untill the situation arises. if you train the dog you have atleast a 75% chance that he/she will follow through, without training I guess around a 50% chance.
renee, Ive only worked with one fila. that was 6-7 years ago and I only played the role of agitator one time with her. I had been hit by gsd's, dobes, rotts, and pit bulls...fila hit almost as hard as all of them put together, full mouth bite, jaws like a hydroulic press. impressive dogs for sure!! but I imagine they are no different, some may not have the temperament without training you wont know.
as I said, some dogs will have the temperament to follow through without training but you wont know for sure untill the situation arises. if you train the dog you have atleast a 75% chance that he/she will follow through, without training I guess around a 50% chance.
renee, Ive only worked with one fila. that was 6-7 years ago and I only played the role of agitator one time with her. I had been hit by gsd's, dobes, rotts, and pit bulls...fila hit almost as hard as all of them put together, full mouth bite, jaws like a hydroulic press. impressive dogs for sure!! but I imagine they are no different, some may not have the temperament without training you wont know.
I understand what you're saying Stirder, but I can almost be sure....if my Doberman were to go into Schutzhund training, that still wouldn't be a sure fire way of testing him. He's so smart, that he'd probably know this wasn't the real thing and maybe he wouldn't bite. It's a different thing when something is really happening with real emotions and fear coming off the dog's owner and something that isn't real, but a simulation. This breed is highly, highly keyed into it's owner's mood as well as the actual situation. He can tell when someone is a threat and when someone isn't. It's uncanny.
For dogs who don't have these "psycic" abilities, I can see where training is needed. My dog has understood when I was wrestling or play fighting with someone. My daughter and I practice our karate sometimes for fun....sparring etc. He is not perturbed in the least. I've done the same with a guy friend. Again...Lyric knew it wasn't a real fight. He watched, and in fact, came to have a closer look. LOL. But didn't react other than that. However, when things have happended that were more of a potential threat, he's gotten very serious. No, I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt if he'd follow through and attack/bite someone. That has never come up. But according to his breed standard and description, if he is of proper and correct Doberman temperament, then he won't back down in the face of an attack. I think he has good temperament. He's a lovely dog and he comes out of the top Doberman in the country (several times over) (Repo Man) and from a top breeder who got top breeder of the year award. She's been breeding for over 40 years and has had some excellent dogs and some famous old time dogs from way back in the lines. This does not ensure all, but it probaby helps. That is why we have these discussions about reputable breeding...it is important to maintain proper temperament, health and structure.
There have been many, many countless stories over time where scads of Dobermans have protected and fought for their masters. They have not all had Schutzhund training. This is well documented and known about this breed. It's a moot point to say that some will not. Of course, some will not. They're not all of correct temperament. And I don't know that a test is really a test, if you know what I mean. The proof is in the pudding. LOL.
For dogs who don't have these "psycic" abilities, I can see where training is needed. My dog has understood when I was wrestling or play fighting with someone. My daughter and I practice our karate sometimes for fun....sparring etc. He is not perturbed in the least. I've done the same with a guy friend. Again...Lyric knew it wasn't a real fight. He watched, and in fact, came to have a closer look. LOL. But didn't react other than that. However, when things have happended that were more of a potential threat, he's gotten very serious. No, I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt if he'd follow through and attack/bite someone. That has never come up. But according to his breed standard and description, if he is of proper and correct Doberman temperament, then he won't back down in the face of an attack. I think he has good temperament. He's a lovely dog and he comes out of the top Doberman in the country (several times over) (Repo Man) and from a top breeder who got top breeder of the year award. She's been breeding for over 40 years and has had some excellent dogs and some famous old time dogs from way back in the lines. This does not ensure all, but it probaby helps. That is why we have these discussions about reputable breeding...it is important to maintain proper temperament, health and structure.
There have been many, many countless stories over time where scads of Dobermans have protected and fought for their masters. They have not all had Schutzhund training. This is well documented and known about this breed. It's a moot point to say that some will not. Of course, some will not. They're not all of correct temperament. And I don't know that a test is really a test, if you know what I mean. The proof is in the pudding. LOL.
yep,theres only one time I've ever felt threatened with my boy around and its the only time i have seen him react like that. We were walking way in the back of these woods and I knew this guy was coming at me and byron senced it from me or him and he didn't lunge or anything but he made himself big and let out some growls and just made known that he wasn't aftraid of him. I have no doubt if that guy would have gotten any closer he would have had some serioues bites. Byron couldn't care less any other time someone comes near us but that one time i was so happy to have him there 
Thats why I was going to do the schutzend but my trainer pointed out if need be byron would eat someone for me as it was and that I shouldn't be in complete control of his instinct or whatever you want to call it since he is so intune to what I'm feeling as it is now. Kind of the smae way I've heard with huskies,that you don't want them to listen 100% to what you say because you want them to warn you if the ice is going to break. I don't think I explained that to well but I'm sure someone gets what i mean!
Thats why I was going to do the schutzend but my trainer pointed out if need be byron would eat someone for me as it was and that I shouldn't be in complete control of his instinct or whatever you want to call it since he is so intune to what I'm feeling as it is now. Kind of the smae way I've heard with huskies,that you don't want them to listen 100% to what you say because you want them to warn you if the ice is going to break. I don't think I explained that to well but I'm sure someone gets what i mean!
S
your exactly right. it is a simulation and every gsd I have had has been just as good about knowing what I am doing/thinking as you described. and no test is exact, however schutzhund is one of the best (possibly the best) way of evaluating a dogs temperament, atleast for some breeds. and of course that depends on the trainers experience and abilities to read the dog, as well as the handlers ability. I dont deny the fact that strider (who isnt yet titled) or my previous sch III gsd might have not followed through in a real life situation. however I trust the sport enough that I will never purchase a gsd, rott or dobe from a breeder unless there are schutzhund titles in the background. its not about training them to attack, it is evaluating their temperament, building confidence and building obedience to very high levels. am I saying that breeding dogs without schutzhund titles (of course talking about select breeds) is going to result in dogs without correct temperament? yes and no, but not necassarily more likely than breeding 2 dogs WITH schutzhund titles. I just personally feel that it is more of an accurate way of testing the temperaments to see if they are what they should be, than only doing conformation, or only doing herding with a gsd, or what have you. I also feel just as strongly that simply having schutzhund titles is not enough. I think both parents should be titled, tested and proven in schutzhund and conformation, and if they also have herding titles or agility, flyball etc thats an even better testament to their breeding worthiness.
and I do understand what you mean joce, with some dogs that is true...but obviously you had him evaluated (atleast to some extant) by a professional trainer. thats great. if you hadnt you would probably have some doubts, no matter how small, that maybe he wouldnt be as good as you now know he is?
and I do understand what you mean joce, with some dogs that is true...but obviously you had him evaluated (atleast to some extant) by a professional trainer. thats great. if you hadnt you would probably have some doubts, no matter how small, that maybe he wouldnt be as good as you now know he is?
I trusted him before that to back me up at least. I never really expected him to do all that because he is such a big baby,but after that I will never doubt him again. I only looked into the specific training with my trainer because i was so completely freaked out after that had happened not really of a lack of confidence in my dog. Now if i could get any dog trained to do that I'll get gizzmo the attack corgi ! i know my husky would help to but she is the type of dog who doesn't always differentiate from play and fight so she isn't the best to rely on!
! i know my husky would help to but she is the type of dog who doesn't always differentiate from play and fight so she isn't the best to rely on!
I know exactly what you mean. I did a whole lot of research into the Doberman breed prior to getting mine. And everything I read, the breeders I talked to advised NOT to train a Doberman in protection for the purpose of protecting you. They're better off left the way they were selectively bred and designed.
My GSD was a big baby too Joce....never showed one iota of protectiveness....not like Lyric does. But there was this one time when something DID happen and there was no way he would have backed down either. He became one scary beast.
My GSD was a big baby too Joce....never showed one iota of protectiveness....not like Lyric does. But there was this one time when something DID happen and there was no way he would have backed down either. He became one scary beast.
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Wow that was a long thread to read....everything I would have said has already been said so I will keep my mouth shut other than to say my girl is cropped and docked and I wouldnt have it any other way if it were "MY" choice. But if I was looking to adopt or rescue another Dobie I would consider a natural eared dog without hesitation. Regardless of what their ears or tails look like they are still a great Dog breed and the only dog I would own.
My 2 year old Dobe girl is the nicest dog you want to meet, if introduced properly she loves all people and other dogs. But if put into a situation where she has to protect either myself, my family or "her" property I have no doubt that her natural instincts would be enough to protect. She has been through OB training but nothing else related to protection or bite work, I am very confident that if the need were to arise she would be able to take care of herself and us if need be.
DA
My 2 year old Dobe girl is the nicest dog you want to meet, if introduced properly she loves all people and other dogs. But if put into a situation where she has to protect either myself, my family or "her" property I have no doubt that her natural instincts would be enough to protect. She has been through OB training but nothing else related to protection or bite work, I am very confident that if the need were to arise she would be able to take care of herself and us if need be.
DA