What's so bad about breeding 'designer' dogs?

[~Janessa]

That was the question I was asked today. I haven't talked to my friend Joyce in about 8 or 9 months. So, in the time I haven't seen her, she's decided to breed dogs. She started with her standard poodle Mitzi, and bred her to her mom's chocolate lab.

So, what she could (she showed me a picture) were 6 pretty 'labradoodles', 1 white, 4 brown, and 2 diluted-ish brown colored.


She kept a brown male and a diluted-ish brown female, (don't worry, she didn't breed them), but they're about 7 months now.

And she took in her friend's labradoodle when she moved, and wants to breed her.

The thing is, she wants to know WHY so many people think it's a bad thing. She wants to know WHY she can't make a labradoodle a proper breed.

Her goal is to breed dogs that represent what she thinks a labradoodle should look like - happy-go-lucky, intelligent, and gentle, with a curly coat, coming in the colors of white, black, brown, fawn, apricot, red, yellow, and possibly bi-color.

She doesn't believe in inbreeding, so the two sibling puppies won't be bred.

But she wants to know if she could set a standard for the labradoodle and do everything right, like the famous breeders where you might have gotten you're purebred doggie right, why some people still say it's wrong.

I didn't say anything when she went on and on about it. I just liked playing with the puppies. >.>

 

[corgipower]

I don't have a problem with it. Almost every breed there is originated as a mix. A breed has to breed true for several generations before being considered a breed of its own.

As long as the breeder is breeding to the same standards I would look for in a purebred, I don't care. I've known a few labradoodles and a few puggles. I kinda like them.

 

[Maxy24]

But she wants to know if she could set a standard for the labradoodle and do everything right, like the famous breeders where you might have gotten you're purebred doggie right, why some people still say it's wrong.

For me if she did this, bred to the standard (both body/coat and temperament), genetic screenings, temperament tests etc. then I'd be fine with it. Here's the thing:
Labradoodle+Labradoodle= Poodle OR Labrador NOT Labradoodle.

Sooooo you could not breed to standard you'd just be breeding a bunch of Labs to Poodles. You could not create the standard of temperament because you're still mixing lab and poodle temperaments. If they can figure this out, make a club and create a standard of body and temperament then I'd probably be ok with it, I'd prefer some purpose though, include hunting ability in the breed creating process so they would develop with the athleticism that both breeds should exhibit and aim for dogs with hypoallergenic coats (not a guarantee at all when you mix a poodle and Lab) since there are not too many options for large breed hypoallergenic dogs.

You can't be a responsible breeder if you're guidelines for breeding are friendly, healthy dogs because there is no standard, until someone does something about that I can't support it. there are plenty of friendly, healthy dogs that should not be bred because there are far too many dogs as there is. Almost all the dogs in shelters are friendly and most are healthy, breeders should offer something shelters cannot, a dog that will almost guaranteed excel at something (hunting, confirmation, shutzhund etc.) and that will have a predictable set of traits. People go to breeders because there is a breed who's traits are perfects for them and they want a puppy, labradoodles don't have a set of traits they are bred for, they can be anything between a Lab and Poodle...endless possibilities.

 

[Sapphire-Light]

The bad thing I see with "hybrid or designer" breeders is when sometimes they claim they dogs are inmune to any diseases.


or be more healty than any purebred dog (even if the pure bred have healt test).

Also that most of the times the dogs they use for breeding don't have conformation or working titles, and they charge the same, doble or mush mush more than a puppy from a show or working breeder that has breeding dogs with titles.

 

[JennSLK]

I dont have a problem if its done RIGHT. Ie health testing, breeding stock thats like F4 or better. creating a standard and breeding to that.

 

[corgi_love]

I don't have a problem with it. Almost every breed there is originated as a mix. A breed has to breed true for several generations before being considered a breed of its own.

The problem with that statement is that Labradoodles, Puggles, and so forth are bred for personal gain. Every AKC accepted breed, for example, are bred for a purpose. A Collie herds, a Rat Terrier hunts vermin, a Newfoundland does water rescue, all of them have a purpose. "Doesn't shed" or "Is really sweet" is not a reason to create a breed. So if there is a truly valid reason for needing a certain breed of dog that's just not out there, then by all means PLEASE take the logical steps to create that breed. But as far as I am concerned I don't see the purpose and a half beagle have pug(not to bash puggles, I know a sweet few).

So if a person needs to cross a breed for an actual and true purpose, does proper health testing and screening, doesn't bred for money, and is considered by many a "reputable" breeder- go for it. Otherwise, please go rescue the mixes your creating that don't have homes and don't add to that ever growing list.. please.

 

[mrose_s]

I believe labradoodles have a future. But not unless some breeders do the right thing. A whole lot of people think they are making a new breed by breeding labs to poodles, not true. But I've read a few articles about decent breeders that are aiming for a healthy breed with a purpose in the future.

I believe there are some labradoodle clubs around, people breeding for the betterment of the "breed" so I'd look around, see how they are devising a standard, get a clear goal in mind of what dogs she is looking to breed. Study both the lab and poodle breeds and test for their genetic diseases, understand what a good topline looks like and other things that I couldn't pick like some other people can.
Have a job the dog should do that it has to prove itself in before it can be bred, maybe a assistance dog breed that perhaps doesn't take so long to mature like the lab can, or that is hypo allergenic for people with allergies (per the original purpose of this cross)? Maybe as a water retreiver, search and rescue extraodanaire etc.

Because at this stage, most of these dogs are quite "raw" in that they are still very closely related to both the poodle and the lab, she must understand eveyrthing about these 2 breeds. They're pro's and their con's, they're structure, they're history, their purpose, their temperment, behaviour, independence levels, their intelligence, their willingness to work, their coat type, they're eating/sleeping habits and their health issues.

This is a LOT of work, and exactly why so many people are going about it all the wrong way.

Only after all this is figured out can she start looking at how to breed reputably, how to screen homes, how to health test, how to help a bitch that is breaching, what to do about fading puppy syndrome, how to draw up a contract, how she will find the money if god forbid, the bitch needs an emergency C-section, what she will do if the puppies are returned etc.

Would she be interetsed in tying in with a guide dogs organisation and discussing this with them, understand why the labXpoodle breed was first tried and discuss with them if they believe there is a future in this breed if bred properly. WOuld she be willing to find/train/work/place a poodle as a guide dog so to perhaps help the offspring have a better chance at this job.

Sorry if not a lot of that makes sense, but creating a breed is a massive thing, you can't just chcuk a few breeds together and see whta comes out.

but honestly, I think the biggest issue with this breed is that, to breed good dogs you need to start with good dogs. To get good dogs you need to go to a reputable breeder, and good luck getting a dog from them if you plan on mix breeding with it. Another reason why you can't find a well bred labradoodle.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Breeding a Labrador Retriever to a Poodle is creating mutts. Period! Absolutely no different than if I took my Corgi mix and bred him to my friend's Border Collie; just because they would produce cute, friendly puppies does NOT mean they should be bred. There are plenty of cute, friendly homeless puppies in this country as it is - why add to it intentionally?

If your friend is truly interested in making "Labradoodles" a breed, she needs to do ALOT more research, consult experienced, reputable, multiple-generation breeders, and stop breeding unhealthy (I'm assuming neither parent was tested) F1 mutts.

FYI, the original Australian Labradoodle is NOT simply a mix of a Labrador and a Poodle. There have been several additional breeds mixed in over time. What your friend is doing is backyard breeding, and she is not helping the "breed", what so ever. D=

 

[Fran27]

If by then the big labradoodle factories in Australia haven't managed to get the breed recognized... I doubt it will ever happen. Which is a bit of a shame, I'd love to have one

 

[Goldendoodler]

I see no problem with it, heck I'm a Goldendoodle breeder myself!
Is she in one of the 'Doodle' Organisations, as in the groups of breeders whom are trying to make labradoodles/goldendoodles a recognised breed?
I'm quite interested in her now, I think I might browse through and see if I can find her.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I am just curious how many people are past F1 crosses? Does anyone have any success in reliably producing consistent size and type?

It is my understanding that the original program in Australia was abandoned because of the difficulty they had in achieving consistency in type. Is this fact or urban legend I picked up somewhere?

And what advantages do the "doodles" have over Poodles?

 

[corgipower]

Here is a bit of an outline of the development of the Australian Labradoodle.

The problem with that statement is that Labradoodles, Puggles, and so forth are bred for personal gain. Every AKC accepted breed, for example, are bred for a purpose.

The puggle was originated with the purpose to develop the ultimate cute dog, after a survey of what pet owners wanted a cute dog to look like.

The labradoodle was originated to be a "hypo-allergenic" assistance dog.

Breeding for personal gain is kinda what all breeders do anyway. How that personal gain is defined is another issue - it may be because you want to develop better individuals for that breed specifically for the breed ring, it may be that you want to develop better working lines in the breed, it may be because you want to raise more puppies or because you want money...not all personal gain reasons are bad, but all are personal gain.

A Collie herds, a Rat Terrier hunts vermin, a Newfoundland does water rescue, all of them have a purpose.

Many of the breeds recognized by AKC have strayed far from their original purpose.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Breeding for personal gain is kinda what all breeders do anyway. How that personal gain is defined is another issue - it may be because you want to develop better individuals for that breed specifically for the breed ring, it may be that you want to develop better working lines in the breed, it may be because you want to raise more puppies or because you want money...not all personal gain reasons are bad, but all are personal gain.

I respectfully disagree.

Trying to breed a better dog has almost nothing to do with personal gain. In my experience it has a lot to do with personal LOSS, including money, time, and emotional expense.

Designer dogs are bred for bucks most of the time.

Studying a breed, learning pedigrees and lines, acquiring a nice example, learning to show it, finishing it, is all expensive and takes time. Most of the designer breeders do not go through this long term learning process before they start breeding.

There is quite a difference, IMO.

 

[corgipower]

Trying to breed a better dog has almost nothing to do with personal gain. In my experience it has a lot to do with personal LOSS, including money, time, and emotional expense.

I think the difference, the disagreement, is in how we define personal gain. In my personal definition, personal gain includes seeing the breed improved. If I were to breed corgis, it's because I want to see certain characteristics of the breed enhanced, the working abilities maintained. That is bettering the breed, it also is a personal gain, as I personally am (hopefully) gaining a better corgi out of it.

 

[LauraLeigh]

I am pretty well against it.... though owning one I have to say I understand how people fall in love with them, Foster is a sweet, smart and fun dog... however lots of breeds would likely have some of the same characteristics... He was an ADORABLE puppy and I think that’s why so much money is out there for BYB and Mills producing these mixes... I mean look at this face:

However his coat as an adult is a nightmare of HUGE proportions, If someone were truly trying to develop a new breed I may support them, however from all I have seen and read it just does not work past F1??

This is an F2, see how the dog starts to look like the original breed?

So I don't know, someone breeding these Mixes, doing all the genetic testing and clearances for BOTH breeds and trying hard to produce a type is one thing, though I still believe many, many breeders are doing it for the quick buck....

PS... I really wish if they had a different name too.... I refuse to call my dog a "Doodle" it sounds so goofy... There must have been better options than a cutsey name like GoldenDoodle/ Labradoodle.....

 

[angelicfruitcake]

So I don't know, someone breeding these Mixes, doing all the genetic testing and clearances for BOTH breeds and trying hard to produce a type is one thing, though I still believe many, many breeders are doing it for the quick buck....

PS... I really wish if they had a different name too.... I refuse to call my dog a "Doodle" it sounds so goofy... There must have been better options than a cutsey name like GoldenDoodle/ Labradoodle.....

I agree. I think it makes it sound really frivolous and to be honest just makes me think of a young airheaded girl being like "awww, but he's soooo cute!" That may be an unfair judgement, but sorry that's just the way I see it!

 

[Laurelin]

I have seen some good breeders of labradoodles. However, they're not taking random poodles and labs and crossing them as has been mentioned. Multiple generations, health testing, and more than just the two breeds....

I have no problem with them. But I do have a problem with people taking mom's cute poodle and breeding it to their lab or something like that.

I still have yet to figure out the purpose of goldendoodles past the 'labradoodles seem to be a big marketing success' but that's just me. I haven't seen a good goldendoodle breeder but maybe I've just missed them?

 

[HoundedByHounds]

Tell your friend if she honestly wanted to make this a REAL breed she'd need to be willing to cull (and no cull doesn't mean kill it means be extremely selective) and also introduce another couple breeds. AKC does not allow new breeds originating from solely 2...there is a good reason...you can dance all you want but with only 2 breeds, the get WILL revert back to one side of the pedigree.

Tell her to read the story of the Alaskan Klee Kai to see how dedicated one should be to developing a real breed...as in...willing to give inexhaustable time, money, and emotion into, keep at times, more than TEN dog on site to be able to actually see what progress you are making so basically moving to BFE. etc....if she's willing to do that...sure she can make her dogs a real breed.

Strange tho how long it's been and they haven't made any progress on that count.

 

[Dekka]

All that has been said AND COME UP WITH A NEW NAME!!

Silken windounds are LHW and borzoi. They did not call the breed wipporzoi's or some mangling of the names. (and they have loong since passed F10 generations) The name involvind 'doodle' just inspires images of puppy mills and the slimiest of bybs.

 

[Boreayl_Chinooks]

Breeding for personal gain is kinda what all breeders do anyway. How that personal gain is defined is another issue - it may be because you want to develop better individuals for that breed specifically for the breed ring, it may be that you want to develop better working lines in the breed, it may be because you want to raise more puppies or because you want money...not all personal gain reasons are bad, but all are personal gain.

Many of the breeds recognized by AKC have strayed far from their original purpose.

I generally agree with both of these statements and that's why sometimes I think these discussions are such sensitive topics.

My question about the OP's friend is not whether she has any more or less right to decide to breed her dogs than anyone who has ever decided to breed a litter, but whether she has enough money, experience, knowledge, and dedication to be able to accomplish her goal without setting off a cascade resulting in hundreds of dogs before finding out the answer. Breeding is an expensive venue if someone is truely trying to improve the health, consistency, and quality of their dogs and it requires much know how, health testing, and culling (i.e. placement as pets), especially if starting with mixed breeds where some of the desirable characteristics may be the result of being heterozygous and won't breed true.

Debbie