Victoria Stillwell or Cesar Millan?
- Thread starter Lizmo
- Start date
I like Victoria. She's no nonsense, knows right away what she's seeing as far as body language (unlike CM who gets it all wrong). She handles dogs nicely, even if she does use a few aversives...they're certainly not what I'd call harsh...things like sound aversion or "eh eh". She doesn't pussy foot around with the owners...tells them straight up. I like that. I wish I could be more that way but I'm not really very assertive. One thing I don't agree with is that pack mentality thing again. I saw her tell an owner to eat something first before feeding the dog so she'd be more like an "alpha." That to me is the most ridiculous thing. I don't know who ever came up with that one. Yes, the photos on the magnets and their placement....owner on the bottom, dog on the top...well, you know how I feel about that. ROFLOL. That's annoying to me too. If she'd stick to the real reasons dogs behave a certain way and keep on doing what she's doing with the reinforcement, prevention of things, timing and all that, it would be fine. That other hierarchy stuff is a lot of fluff and not needed.
I dislike CM for the same types of reasons Maxi wrote in her post...he doesn't train or rehabilitate. He simply squashes dogs into a state of learned helplessness by intimidating, choking/jerking or forcing them. They stop behaving at all basically. He mislabels behaviors, practically every conceivable behavior as dominance or submission and misses completley the real reasons dogs do the things they do.
Then he'll force a frightened dog, lie over him while he cuts his nails and gets bitten 3 times in one episode. The dog didn't come to like his nails clipped. He didn't get rehabilitated at all. All CM wanted to do was to prove that he could over power and dominate the dog. That is not good for dogs. So, his knoweldge of behavior is zilch. Yes, I agree...the message to walk dogs more is great. But he tells people to walk dogs for excessive amounts of time....that is not needed or natural. And it's not pracitcal for people to walk their dogs for hours and hours. I could go on and on and already have so I'll spare you.
Needless to say, I prefer VS by leaps and bounds.
I dislike CM for the same types of reasons Maxi wrote in her post...he doesn't train or rehabilitate. He simply squashes dogs into a state of learned helplessness by intimidating, choking/jerking or forcing them. They stop behaving at all basically. He mislabels behaviors, practically every conceivable behavior as dominance or submission and misses completley the real reasons dogs do the things they do.
Then he'll force a frightened dog, lie over him while he cuts his nails and gets bitten 3 times in one episode. The dog didn't come to like his nails clipped. He didn't get rehabilitated at all. All CM wanted to do was to prove that he could over power and dominate the dog. That is not good for dogs. So, his knoweldge of behavior is zilch. Yes, I agree...the message to walk dogs more is great. But he tells people to walk dogs for excessive amounts of time....that is not needed or natural. And it's not pracitcal for people to walk their dogs for hours and hours. I could go on and on and already have so I'll spare you.
Needless to say, I prefer VS by leaps and bounds.
it was horrible 
Then he told the people they weren't suitable for their dog and offered to trade them one of his dogs for theirs. Before CM they had been successfully crating and rotating.
See I dunno.. Hanging dogs so they can't breathe, traumatizing them till they are literally foaming at the mouth, shocking them so they redirect and bite their owners.. telling people to exercise the crap out of their dogs without saying that large breed pups and some dogs with health issues SHOULDN'T have that much forced exercise..doesn't ever tell people to check for medical issues. Teaches people that its a struggle of dominance in the house.. when really its just a lack of training..
Personally I can't see how he has helped the plight of dogs. In fact most of the dog welfare groups think he is doing great harm....
the director of behaviour and Purdue university
(http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf)
and the AVSAB
(http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf)
To professionals who actually fix dog problems
(http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm)
Others who have spoken out against his methods..
the American Humane Society
(http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html)
http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=203&Itemid=71
A very interesting book review http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...r review.pdf by a veterinary behaviourist.
The Ohio State University College of Veterinary. (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2725.htm)
The IAABC, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (http://k9management.wordpress.com/20...hisperer-show/)
the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=204&Itemid=71
News clip.. umm he doesn't do himself any favours here
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/3...?video=pop&t=a
Then he told the people they weren't suitable for their dog and offered to trade them one of his dogs for theirs. Before CM they had been successfully crating and rotating.See I dunno.. Hanging dogs so they can't breathe, traumatizing them till they are literally foaming at the mouth, shocking them so they redirect and bite their owners.. telling people to exercise the crap out of their dogs without saying that large breed pups and some dogs with health issues SHOULDN'T have that much forced exercise..doesn't ever tell people to check for medical issues. Teaches people that its a struggle of dominance in the house.. when really its just a lack of training..
Personally I can't see how he has helped the plight of dogs. In fact most of the dog welfare groups think he is doing great harm....
the director of behaviour and Purdue university
(http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf)
and the AVSAB
(http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf)
To professionals who actually fix dog problems
(http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm)
Others who have spoken out against his methods..
the American Humane Society
(http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html)
http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=203&Itemid=71
A very interesting book review http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...r review.pdf by a veterinary behaviourist.
The Ohio State University College of Veterinary. (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2725.htm)
The IAABC, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (http://k9management.wordpress.com/20...hisperer-show/)
the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=204&Itemid=71
News clip.. umm he doesn't do himself any favours here
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/3...?video=pop&t=a
I like VS for the reasons doberluv posted. I like how she's not afraid to tell owners what's what, but always follows up with showing them how to fix or at least improve things.
I've seen her drop the ball a few times, but her missteps are NOTHING like the horribleness that is Cesar Milan. He just makes my blood boil, what he does to those poor dogs and even worse - when JQP sees his show and tries his "methods" on their own dogs.
I've seen her drop the ball a few times, but her missteps are NOTHING like the horribleness that is Cesar Milan. He just makes my blood boil, what he does to those poor dogs and even worse - when JQP sees his show and tries his "methods" on their own dogs.
I think the reason CM does so well is because he has that "BAM" factor. He can "cure" DA in 30 minutes you know.
Thats why he is so popular, in the society we have now of "I want this NOW" attitudes, this approach offers a quick fix for even serious behaviour problems.
Noone is interested in watching a dog slowly progress over 3 or 6 months to the point where it can walk calmly past other dogs. Thats not going to be very exciting for the viewer. But watching a dog go from crazed, frothing at the mouth to "calm submissive" in under 30 minutes gets peoples attention. He gets results fast for the show, whether or not they last, and how affected the dog is because of this technique isn't brought into it.
CM is excellent at what he does, except what he does is intimidate dogs and shut them down.
Thats why he is so popular, in the society we have now of "I want this NOW" attitudes, this approach offers a quick fix for even serious behaviour problems.
Noone is interested in watching a dog slowly progress over 3 or 6 months to the point where it can walk calmly past other dogs. Thats not going to be very exciting for the viewer. But watching a dog go from crazed, frothing at the mouth to "calm submissive" in under 30 minutes gets peoples attention. He gets results fast for the show, whether or not they last, and how affected the dog is because of this technique isn't brought into it.
CM is excellent at what he does, except what he does is intimidate dogs and shut them down.
I just wanted to add this clip in ref. to another persons post re: Brad Pattison. How is this NOT ABUSE??? By the way, this is mild compared to his usual "training" methods taught in his seminars to JQP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYXOnoRr0Do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYXOnoRr0Do
*gag* poor dog. I have never seen something look so confused and frightened.
On a lighter note, My sister and I often play the CM game with the Harry. We'll walk around him, than scream "dominance!" and dive on him and wrestle him onto his back yelling "quick, alpha roll him!". You should see his face, he thinks its the best game ever lol.
On a lighter note, My sister and I often play the CM game with the Harry. We'll walk around him, than scream "dominance!" and dive on him and wrestle him onto his back yelling "quick, alpha roll him!". You should see his face, he thinks its the best game ever lol.
OMG. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqcexvHEDRc&NR=1
OMG. . .
Colleen, that video practically made me cry! I've given my dog leash corrections, and I use my hands as a way to say "stay back by my side" and Blaze does cower a bit, but I've never hit him into subbmission like that dog obivously has been
OMG. . .
Colleen, that video practically made me cry!
I've given my dog leash corrections, and I use my hands as a way to say "stay back by my side" and Blaze does cower a bit, but I've never hit him into subbmission like that dog obivously has been 
Yea, so is Dr. House
OOOO Now that would be very interesting to see
Ughhh...That is beyond abusive. How do the owners just stand there and allow him to treat their dogs like that?
I dare him to even think about slapping any of mine across the nose. While they kick into fight drive, I'll be right there helping them win.
^That's an odd one^
I do teach my dogs how to unwrap themselves from trees and poles, which is what I think he was doing, but I don't do it in such a frenzied and hectic way. I actually teach it.
OOOO Now that would be very interesting to see
Ughhh...That is beyond abusive. How do the owners just stand there and allow him to treat their dogs like that?
I dare him to even think about slapping any of mine across the nose. While they kick into fight drive, I'll be right there helping them win.
^That's an odd one^
I do teach my dogs how to unwrap themselves from trees and poles, which is what I think he was doing, but I don't do it in such a frenzied and hectic way. I actually teach it.
it was horrible Then he told the people they weren't suitable for their dog and offered to trade them one of his dogs for theirs. Before CM they had been successfully crating and rotating.
See I dunno.. Hanging dogs so they can't breathe, traumatizing them till they are literally foaming at the mouth, shocking them so they redirect and bite their owners.. telling people to exercise the crap out of their dogs without saying that large breed pups and some dogs with health issues SHOULDN'T have that much forced exercise..doesn't ever tell people to check for medical issues. Teaches people that its a struggle of dominance in the house.. when really its just a lack of training..
Personally I can't see how he has helped the plight of dogs. In fact most of the dog welfare groups think he is doing great harm....
the director of behaviour and Purdue university
(http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf)
and the AVSAB
(http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf)
To professionals who actually fix dog problems
(http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm)
Others who have spoken out against his methods..
the American Humane Society
(http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html)
http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=203&Itemid=71
A very interesting book review http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...r review.pdf by a veterinary behaviourist.
The Ohio State University College of Veterinary. (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2725.htm)
The IAABC, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (http://k9management.wordpress.com/20...hisperer-show/)
the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=204&Itemid=71
News clip.. umm he doesn't do himself any favours here
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/3...?video=pop&t=a
Then he told the people they weren't suitable for their dog and offered to trade them one of his dogs for theirs. Before CM they had been successfully crating and rotating.See I dunno.. Hanging dogs so they can't breathe, traumatizing them till they are literally foaming at the mouth, shocking them so they redirect and bite their owners.. telling people to exercise the crap out of their dogs without saying that large breed pups and some dogs with health issues SHOULDN'T have that much forced exercise..doesn't ever tell people to check for medical issues. Teaches people that its a struggle of dominance in the house.. when really its just a lack of training..
Personally I can't see how he has helped the plight of dogs. In fact most of the dog welfare groups think he is doing great harm....
the director of behaviour and Purdue university
(http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf)
and the AVSAB
(http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf)
To professionals who actually fix dog problems
(http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm)
Others who have spoken out against his methods..
the American Humane Society
(http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html)
http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=203&Itemid=71
A very interesting book review http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...r review.pdf by a veterinary behaviourist.
The Ohio State University College of Veterinary. (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2725.htm)
The IAABC, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (http://k9management.wordpress.com/20...hisperer-show/)
the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/ind...=204&Itemid=71
News clip.. umm he doesn't do himself any favours here
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/3...?video=pop&t=a
Dekka...thanks for posting those links. I've read them all and have most of them in my files. What I don't understand is how people can still think he's so great when these people in those links and elsewhere explain what's going on, not to mention why JQP can't see for themselves when they watch him in action. Some of the stuff he does isn't at all subtle, even for JQP... you'd think. All these people rehabilitate dogs just as ill behaved as the ones he messes with and in many cases, much worse. In many cases, they've been doing it for years. It's the Hollywood schmooze and the dang National Geographic producers who are behind him because the bottom line is always fame and money....not the dogs or their owners. The trickle down of the truth about dogs is certainly slow. Some of these real behaviorists need to get on Oprah for starters.
