Ultra sonic or shock?

puppydog

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#21
He is fear reactive to people and dogs, you can let a bomb off next to him and he does not blink. He is rock solid with everything except "strangers".

I am going to try some other things first. His socialisation is number one to me. I feel he is barking because it is what he knows, being from a large breeding pack and not taken off the farm his breeders lived on except for showing. It is a habit. He barks in that monotonus, consistent bark.

I will ensure he is away from the "peep hole" through the gate, give him a kong and socialise!
 

Suzzie

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#22
So if I asked you what sort of harness you would recommend you wouldnt actually ask what itwas needed for,what sort of dog it was for??? Scarey.

If I asked what breed you would recommend for me you wouldnt ask about lifestyle etc?
No, you were asking *why* the dog was barking specifically because you were going to start on an anti shock collar campaign.

It's a cut and dried case of "which correctional device do I use for nuisance barking while I am out of the home." The correctional device is not dependent on why the dog is barking. Are you going to use a spray collar if the dog feels lonely, and a shock collar if he's just barking for the hell of it? No, that's silly. THAT'S why it doesn't matter *why* the dog is barking. You don't use a different type of collar for different barking reasons. You might use a different type of collar for a different type of DOG.

You DO, however, use a different type of harness for different situations (walking, carting, anti-pull) just as you get a different breed of dog for different lifestyles. I'm amazed you don't see the difference.
 

Zoom

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#23
OR they were asking because if the solution is as simple as "the dog is bored because hdoesn't get any exercise" and the problem could be solved with a good run and Buster Cube, that would be the better option, if only because it's cheaper. Not everything is an "anti-" post if they don't immediately jump in with a brand recommendation.
 

corgipower

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#24
No, you were asking *why* the dog was barking specifically because you were going to start on an anti shock collar campaign.
I have no interest in starting an anti shock collar campaign.

OR they were asking because if the solution is as simple as "the dog is bored because hdoesn't get any exercise" and the problem could be solved with a good run and Buster Cube, that would be the better option, if only because it's cheaper. Not everything is an "anti-" post if they don't immediately jump in with a brand recommendation.
^^Exactlly!^^
 

puppydog

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#25
Well, the information provided does help me, so thank you all of you.
I am going to hold off on a shock collar for a while. I just think he needs more work.

The neighbours will just have to suffer for now! :D
 

Doberluv

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#27
No, you were asking *why* the dog was barking specifically because you were going to start on an anti shock collar campaign.
And what would be wrong with that? Here, I'll start one.

Incessant barking comes from boredom, lonliness, lack of socialization and alarm or fear of something in the environment. The dog is in a stressed state. Physiologically, his heart rate, respiration, blood pressure, brain/ central nervous system, adrenelin and other hormones are all at heightened levels. Prolonged or chronically, these physical and emotional responses are not healthy. Now, bring on the electric shock to add fear and pain to this high level of stress.

Shock collars and other harsh aversives can be associated with things in the environement and cause the dog to develop "superstitious learning." That is...that he sees a child on a bike, gets shocked for barking and learns that children on bikes are dangerous and cause pain. Defensiveness responses, such as "aggression" can develop. The dog does not always tie the punishment to the target behavior and can assoicate it with another behavior he is doing at the same time. There is always more than one single thing going on at one time. It can really do a number on a dog psychologically.

Solution: more socialization, (as the op already concluded wisely) although if he had too little at a very young age (birth to 4-5 months) there may be little change there. But it's definitely worth pursuing and associating the things that set him off with wonderful treats and a fun time.

More exercise, mental and physical.

The dog should not be left outdoors when no one is home to supervise him.

There are a few methods for training a dog to quiet on command which do not involve punishment, which work very well and which I have used personally. You can do a search here if you like.

So, when someone posts a question about which brand of aversive to use, they may only want to hear the answer to that question. But if they're open minded, as it sounds like this o.p. is....then they may be receptive to other options besides which flavor of punishment to use.
 

corgipower

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#28
He barks when my mother is not there. They are left outside if the weather is nice enough for them. He is pretty good at shutting up when told to, it is just when no one is there. We would like for him to be left outside and not bug the neighbours.
The neighbours will just have to suffer for now! :D
Can you bring him inside when no on is home?

Here is an article I wrote about barking.
 

Doberluv

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#29
Very good article Corgipower! Yes there are lots of reasons for barking. And when my dogs bark to warn me of a possible intruder, I appreciate that bark. It would be a shame to punish them for barking sometimes and not others. How confusing would that be? So, hence the bark training methods which don't use aversives along with management, like keeping the dog inside when unsupervised, more socializing to get use to the things that set the dog off etc, etc... Great article.

There's even a more proactive training technique besides just waiting for the quiet which I posted somewhere here. It's a very "set up" type of thing where the dog really learns the distinction between quieting and barking on cue. But at any rate, aside from quieting with the owner present, those management tools are really important for alone time barking.
 

taratippy

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#30
No, you were asking *why* the dog was barking specifically because you were going to start on an anti shock collar campaign.

I'm amazed you don't see the difference.
Gosh you know exactly why this dog is barking and can apparently read my mind as well!
1. I was merely enquiring about the dog and its barking habits to see if anything had been tried so far.
2. If I wanted to make anti shock collar statements I believe I have every right to voice my opinion

OR they were asking because if the solution is as simple as "the dog is bored because hdoesn't get any exercise" and the problem could be solved with a good run and Buster Cube, that would be the better option, if only because it's cheaper. Not everything is an "anti-" post if they don't immediately jump in with a brand recommendation.
Thank you my point exactly.

Well, the information provided does help me, so thank you all of you.
I am going to hold off on a shock collar for a while. I just think he needs more work.

The neighbours will just have to suffer for now! :D
Thats great, I think Corgi has given some good advise and it sounds like you are more than willing to work with Ben. Good luck.
 

Laurelin

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#31
Well, the information provided does help me, so thank you all of you.
I am going to hold off on a shock collar for a while. I just think he needs more work.

The neighbours will just have to suffer for now! :D
I think that's a good decision. Summer is so barky at times, especially when I'm gone. It's part of her separation anxiety, which we're working on. Anyways, you've gotten good advice!
 

puppydog

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#32
Thanks again everyone. It was mainly my mother who was pushing me into a shock collar. She is petrified of the neighbours complaining. He does not bark at my house. He knows it is not allowed. When he is at my mother, he yaps. It seems like he is doing it for fun, he races off and yaps at the gate and keeps it up for a while. I think he just needs more training.

Doverluv, I read a piece of advice you wrote to a lady with a foster chi, I think it is brilliant and will be putting it into practive, Corgi, I will read your article later today. Thank you for all the advice.

I am far more into positive training and DO NOT want to go with aversive methods, I was being pushed by my mother. My foot is now planted down! Thanks all!
 

joce

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#33
I do not think shock collars are for most dogs because most dogs were just not trained or are bored out of their minds. In fact I used to say they were mean and unnecessary. . . . . Until we worked with our failed foster westie for a year with no improvement. I am now convinced some dogs will bark just to hear themselves-and he is not hard of hearing. We went from a miserable household because this dog would bark at everything to able to get an uninterrupted six or so hours of sleep. He still knows how to wear the battery out-he seems to think its a game.
But he has improved a lot and rarely uses the collar anymore. I don't think its been on him in weeks actually. the only time it ever did go on him was at night when we were trying to sleep anyway. Problem with him was he would bark at anything when no one was around him. You could not correct him because he would stop when he heard you coming. tried crating,keeping him tied to someone, and it did nothing for him. the jar of pennies was the best because I think he thought it was music to go along with his yapping.

He was a case of a dog I would never rehome for fear of what other people won't put up with. I would not let a dog yap like that and I don't expect anyone else to put up with it. there is a point were its just too much. Yes dogs bark but if you really think comparing a normal dog and a real yapper who just loves to hear his own voice -then you have never had to live with one.

Try to help the dog without the collar but also don't feel bad if you do have to use it. I swear that yapping takes years off your life.
 

corgipower

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#34
There's even a more proactive training technique besides just waiting for the quiet which I posted somewhere here. It's a very "set up" type of thing where the dog really learns the distinction between quieting and barking on cue.
Thanks, Carrie. I tried to search, briefly. Looking for posts by Carrie is a bit daunting and looking for posts about barking is equally bad. Could you repost this?

Thanks again everyone. It was mainly my mother who was pushing me into a shock collar. She is petrified of the neighbours complaining. He does not bark at my house. He knows it is not allowed. When he is at my mother, he yaps. It seems like he is doing it for fun, he races off and yaps at the gate and keeps it up for a while. I think he just needs more training.
What ever you did at your house is probably the first thing you should do at your mother's house. Keep in mind, it's a different place, a different situation, and therefore a different behavior (regardless of the similarities you and I see, the dog doesn't see it as the same thing).
 

Doberluv

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#35
Here's the method I've used and it works if you're consistent: (Here's an exception to the rule about waiting for the behavior before adding a cue. Here, it is just the opposite)

Put the barking on cue...say "speak" or "bark" (whatever cue you want, just keep it the same) You can use a hand signal too if you want. I open and close my fingers against my thumb like my hand is imitating a mouth, like you'd do with kids when they talk too much.

Immediately after you cue (not more than a second or two after, get the dog to bark by having someone knock on the door or whatever else will make him bark.
Dog barks.


Praise..."gooooood!" (no treat, just a little praise)


Give cue...."quiet" or "enough" (I use enough, but whatever you choose, just make it the same.) And immediately after, show the treat to prompt quiet....hold the treat in front of his nose...get him distracted until he is quiet. Hold the treat for 3-5 seconds and then give it to him.

Repeat with less and less visibility of the treat prompt but still give it to him after perfect 3-5 second quiets.


Repeat with longer and longer durations of quiet before giving the treat.


Practice with lots of visitors or whatever else triggers the barking. Vary them.
Do it over and over till the dog gets onto this game. And it is a game. It my take a few sessions so keep it up. You'll know that the dog gets it when he barks on the cue and doesn't need the door knocking or other noises to set him off. And he quiets on the first cue to quiet without being shown the treat. Still give him a treat but take it from somewhere he won't notice so much, like your pocket or a table top. (later, once reliable, you'll put the treats on a variable reinforcement schedule)

If he ever starts to bark during a quiet time with even a half attempt at a bark or a tiny soft bark, tell him "woops" (a no reward marker) and start your count over again....1,2,3,4,5...He has to know that barking during the quiet time lost him the treat. He needs to give you 3-5 seconds of perfect quiet after you cue the quiet.

Practice this by going back and forth, back and forth between the cue to bark... and the cue to quiet...lots of times before trying it out in real situations. Set up the situations so you can practice better. Expose him to a wider variety of sights and sounds if he is especially easily set off.

Many people give up because they never get past the hard part. Memorize the instructions and understand them completely. Practice, practice. This process works if you give it ample training. It can seem like it's going nowhere the first few times and most people never make it past the initial hard part. The first few times, the dog will respond poorly so you must be ready with some very tasty treats. If he messes up once you've decreased the visibility of the treats for a while, go back to showing him them again for a bit. (Often, dogs that have been trained using more traditional methods take a while to get onto the game because they haven't learned about doggie zen) They’re not accustom to controlling their own behavior because someone else is controlling it for them.

When he's been doing this for a while and he barks after being told to "quiet," he must get an instant time out away from the action, which most dogs find fun and stimulating. Having to leave the excitement really bothers most dogs. Timing, of course is vital as always. Once you've given the "quiet" cue and he barks, he must immediately get a "Woops" (too bad for you) and he is quickly removed to the isolation area. Do not let him out if he barks. Wait for a lull of about 5-10 seconds first after having been in there for a minute or two.

You can also do a down-stay. A lot of dogs don't bark when they're lying down.
It is very likely that it will get worse before it gets better. Your dog has been barking for a long time this way and when something has been working and then it doesn't, he's going to try and try some more. The sudden shift in the rules will likely cause some confusion at first. But then there will be an extinction burst where by he tries and tries and the last time he tries before he gives up because it's not working, he's going to give it all he's got. Keep at it. This will pass. Once he finally gives up for good, the behavior will extinguish. It will extinguish because it doesn't work to bark. Nothing satisfying comes from the excessive barking and no behavior exists when there is no motivator. BUT...something better happens, that works better when he hears the word, "quiet." So that new behavior will be taken on.

The trouble with force based methods, intimidation, aversives and all that is that it tends to regress badly and often, fairly soon. I went that route for years and it never worked. Power struggles don't work. And primarily, it doesn't get at the root of the issue which could be a bad socialization history or some other fear or even excitement over seeing a dog pal. You don't want to escalate that. Associating the other dog or whatever triggers a dog to bark manically with that kind of punishment is that the dog is already stressed, emotionally and physiologically (heart rate, adrenalin, respiration levels are higher) and it further associates the trigger with more of a stressful time than he was already having. It doesn't help the dog to calm down. It only shuts a dog down so he looks calmer but he's "stuffing it." Showing the dog that good things happen in the presence of the trigger and for obeying your cue makes for a much more reliable skill and a much happier dog. It's also less wear and tear on the owner in the long run.

Once the behavior is quite well on it's way, practice this in different environments, locations, contexts and various triggers. Get the dog to generalize this behavior in any kind of situation, anyplace.

I have two yappy Chihuahuas and one loud mouth mix breed... and believe me, if any dog can bark, they can. LOL. I used this method and was lazy with one of my dogs. In the last week or so, I've been practicing better and let me tell you, the second they hear, "enough"....they all three stop barking in unison...absolutely suddenly and exactly together at the same second. It's great. They got the initial behavior going quite well in just one or two sessions. It took some more to get the cues independent of the prompt and the door knocking person.

It can also double as a fun trick to show people. "speak" and "quiet."
 

puppydog

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#36
What ever you did at your house is probably the first thing you should do at your mother's house. Keep in mind, it's a different place, a different situation, and therefore a different behavior (regardless of the similarities you and I see, the dog doesn't see it as the same thing).
That is the problem. I am not there during the day. My mother looks after my dogs when I am at work. She is VERY soft on the dogs. I am a lot more strict. I have showed her what to do and how to be consistent. We had a chat last night. Lets hold thumbs.
 

FoxyWench

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#37
i also wanted to add...

Ben is a pappillion...a WALK (even a good paced one) is not enough for this high energy little breed.
lauralin will tell you how much energy the breed has, and its a common mistake, people think little long haired toy breed means a walk is enough. the breed is also inteligent, they LOVE to learn!
this breed excells at things like agility and it might be worth looking into more physical and mental stimulation, try teaching ben "silly tricks" like jumping through a hoop, you might be amazed to see how much spending a little more time mentally stimulating him and giving him some more excersize might help.

good luck.
 

puppydog

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#38
i also wanted to add...

Ben is a pappillion...a WALK (even a good paced one) is not enough for this high energy little breed.
lauralin will tell you how much energy the breed has, and its a common mistake, people think little long haired toy breed means a walk is enough. the breed is also inteligent, they LOVE to learn!
this breed excells at things like agility and it might be worth looking into more physical and mental stimulation, try teaching ben "silly tricks" like jumping through a hoop, you might be amazed to see how much spending a little more time mentally stimulating him and giving him some more excersize might help.

good luck.
LOL! A walk is not what he gets. We go 9kms in the mornings, he is off leash for a good hour. 45 of which are in a forest. Then in the afternoons we go to a field where I do 30-45 minutes of obedience training and then some off leash running. He goes to obedience classes on Sunday mornings and I am hoping to get him up to a standard where he can be my agility dog.

Right now we are having a little bit of a power struggle, he is strictly on NILIF. Seems to be working. He is a stubborn little butt! The good news is, he has seemed to have stopped the barking. I think it was more of a nervousness about his new surroundings then anything else. :)
 

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