The Human Mill is at it again...

[Taqroy]

The funny thing is, if this were a show about somebody with 20 dogs, the majority here would be defending their choice to have as many dogs as they want. That's Sally's point.

Oh. Well....I wouldn't be. 20 dogs is a LOT for just about anyone I think.

FTR, I didn't say that she shouldn't be having more kids. I said that I think it's horribly irresponsible.

(None of this post is intended in a snarky manner. I re-read it but I'm not sure how it comes across so thought I'd put in my disclaimer.)

 

[sillysally]

Yeah. Except I don't have 20 dogs and a TV show about them. The family put themselves right in the public eye - in my book that's asking for everyone to be in their business. Personally I find the family creepy and way controlling of their kids.

Meh, I think people just get way too uptight about anything outside their own personal norm. Imagine how boring everything would be if everyone was raised in the house with a white picket fence, with 2.5 kids and a golden retriever?

I suppose this is just a particularly sensitive subject to me because my husband's family was largely shunned by his extended family because of the number of kids there were and the fact they they were home schooled. Nate isthe awesome guy that he is largely because he was raised in a big family.

 

[sillysally]

You can't compare doing chores to taking care of babies and children. May I ask, SillySally, were you taking care of your cousins for years and years, or was it just an every now and then thing? Josie is just going to be past to one of the older girls, just like the one before, and the one before that one, and the one before that, and the one before.... Continue on and on! I can finish my chores. You can't stop taking care of babies and children.

I wish I could have taken care of children instead of doing chores! Instead I did chores for years and years "because you are a member of this family and that is what we do in this family." I was an only child (with two older step brothers) but had I had younger siblings I would have been expected to help, because that is what you do in families.

I know my husband and his older brother were expected to help out with his siblings. He really has never called it "babysitting," it was just expected that if someone was younger than you they were naturally looked out for. He has never complained about it, nor does he see it as weird. He has however been known to single handedly step in to feed, wrangle, and care for 7 kids that he barely knew (for a friend) without batting an eye.

Contrary to popular belief parent imposed responsibility not fatal to children under 18.

 

[Romy]

Contrary to popular belief parent imposed responsibility not fatal to children under 18.

That's how my family was. My brothers are 12 and 14 years older than me and they helped out a lot. And by that I don't mean they were my sole caregivers. They just played with me, changed a few diapers and stuff.

Why is unlimited leisure time somehow more beneficial to children than working together as a family learning things like empathy and hard work?.

 

[sillysally]

That's how my family was. My brothers are 12 and 14 years older than me and they helped out a lot. And by that I don't mean they were my sole caregivers. They just played with me, changed a few diapers and stuff.

Why is unlimited leisure time somehow more beneficial to children than working together as a family learning things like empathy and hard work?.

Nate's younger sister has a 3 yr old that spends a lot of time at his parent's house and that's how it is with her--everyone just automatically keeps an eye on her....

 

[sparks19]

I'm with Romy and Sillysally. My neice is 15 (gosh it's so weird to say that lol... 15) and her siblings range from 4-10 years old and she has always been VERY active in their upbringing Even from a young age. My brother was very active in taking care of me... so much so that my mom actually had to force him out to play sometimes lol. I was a very big part of caring for my younger brother (we are all 8+ years apart in age except for my oldest brother and my sister... they are only a few years apart). It's just how it was.

Really though I don't care if people take issue with this family and the way they do things... as long as they aren't going to try to force that opinion on others (IE laws and such). Like, think it's strange to homeschool all you want, that's A OK... as long as you don't go forcing your ideals and try to make it so people can't homeschool anymore. same with setting limits on how many kids people can have or how they can raise them. As long as they are loved, fed, well cared for and have shelter over their heads then I don't really give a hoot what they do with them or how many they have. there are much bigger things to worry about it when it comes to children, IMO. I don't believe this situation is harmful to the kids. different? yes. Harmful? no

 

[Tahla9999]

Of course it is normal for older siblings to take care of their younger ones. The difference is, most older siblings only need to take care of their siblings when it is needed, not all the time. Most mothers wont pop their two year old on the older siblings to take care of ALL the time. Not to mention this is nonstop. You just got through raising one baby to a child age, now there is another baby to take care. So you would be all for taking care of babies and multiple children huh?

And when is not letting your children take care of your own kids full time mean you are somehow spoiling them? Letting a kid be a kid is not letting your child do what they want. Again, there is a difference between an older sibling taking care of the younger one every now and then, and one that is doing it full time.

 

[Romy]

Of course it is normal for older siblings to take care of their younger ones. The difference is, most older siblings only need to take care of their siblings when it is needed, not all the time. Most mothers wont pop their two year old on the older siblings to take care of ALL the time. Not to mention this is nonstop. You just got through raising one baby to a child age, now there is another baby to take care. So you would be all for taking care of babies and multiple children huh?

And when is not letting your children take care of your own kids full time mean you are somehow spoiling them? Letting a kid be a kid is not letting your child do what they want. Again, there is a difference between an older sibling taking care of the younger one every now and then, and one that is doing it full time.

My brothers just dragged me along to their high school functions. Apparently I was pretty cute as a toddler and worked as a chick magnet for them. :rofl1:

 

[sillysally]

Ehhh, they did just kind of take care of each other all the time. Whoever was there watched whoever was younger.

 

[Renee750il]

Yeah. Except I don't have 20 dogs and a TV show about them. The family put themselves right in the public eye - in my book that's asking for everyone to be in their business. Personally I find the family creepy and way controlling of their kids.

That's a good point.

And members here have run people off because they thought they had too many pets and considered them hoarders, so assuming that if they had 20 dogs everyone would be defending them doesn't wash.

It's a matter of "how many can you responsibly take care of, give the attention they need." Again, how responsible is it to play the odds on leaving a small town's worth of children without a mother just to give birth a 20th time? Financially, the Duggars can obviously afford it, so that part of the equation is moot -- and I'm sure it's much easier to afford it now that they've sold the family to a cable TV network.

Even Ozzy realized that wasn't the best decision, and his kids had parents who were savvy about being in the public eye.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I honestly find Sister Wives less disturbing, but part of that could well be the fact that I got stuck going to a school with people like the Duggars for three years -- and all that sugar coated niceness . . . well, wasn't.

 

[CaliTerp07]

Is it so hard to believe there are families that truly, honestly want to spend all their time with each other and really are that kind and loving all the time?

I don't know anyone with 20 kids, but I know quite a few families with 6-7 kids who are very similar in family dynamics to the duggars. I -love- spending time with them. There's no time to be selfish, it's everyone helping and loving on everyone else.

 

[Tahla9999]

Well, seeing that you guys were the youngest I doubt you would understand how it truley feels. Quite some time ago, my mother got a job, a night shift from 3 pm to 12 am( little choice on that matter), and my little sister had only me to take care of her. I was in high school, this lasted for almost three years. My older siblings were out of the house. I could not do any extre currcular activities, I could not go to the college I wanted to go because no one was here to take care of my little sister. I couldn't go out, do any of the normal teenage activites. I had to feed her, make sure she did her chores, help her on her homework, etc. I felt like a mother, which I resented, but never complained. It is not like that anymore since my mother was fired from her job.

Taking care of younger siblings is no problem every now and then. I had no problem taking care of my sister AND younger nephews when they needed me. Becoming a mother to them is a different story.

 

[sillysally]

That's a good point.

And members here have run people off because they thought they had too many pets and considered them hoarders, so assuming that if they had 20 dogs everyone would be defending them doesn't wash.

It's a matter of "how many can you responsibly take care of, give the attention they need." Again, how responsible is it to play the odds on leaving a small town's worth of children without a mother just to give birth a 20th time? Financially, the Duggars can obviously afford it, so that part of the equation is moot -- and I'm sure it's much easier to afford it now that they've sold the family to a cable TV network.

Even Ozzy realized that wasn't the best decision, and his kids had parents who were savvy about being in the public eye.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I honestly find Sister Wives less disturbing, but part of that could well be the fact that I got stuck going to a school with people like the Duggars for three years -- and all that sugar coated niceness . . . well, wasn't.

To each his own. If you feel comfortable judging people who you have never met based on a TV show that's your prerogative. I would be willing to bet that those kids are better off than some only child whose parents both work 10 hours a day with no responsibilities and parents that would rather throw money at him then spend time with him.

I can only think of one person off the top of my head who was driven away because of the number of animals they had, and I do remember feeling that it was very unfair.

Personally, I'm grateful that my inlaws had "all the kids that God would give them"-it helped shape Nate into the awesome (if sometimes slightly annoying) guy that he is.

Now if we are going to talk creepy, I think it is far creepier to have 2 snakes than 20 kids

 

[sillysally]

Well, seeing that you guys were the youngest I doubt you would understand how it truley feels. Quite some time ago, my mother got a job, a night shift from 3 pm to 12 am( little choice on that matter), and my little sister had only me to take care of her. I was in high school, this lasted for almost three years. My older siblings were out of the house. I could not do any extre currcular activities, I could not go to the college I wanted to go because no one was here to take care of my little sister. I couldn't go out, do any of the normal teenage activites. I had to feed her, make sure she did her chores, help her on her homework, etc. I felt like a mother, which I resented, but never complained. It is not like that anymore since my mother was fired from her job.

Taking care of younger siblings is no problem every now and then. I had no problem taking care of my sister AND younger nephews when they needed me. Becoming a mother to them is a different story.

Your situation has nothing to do with number of children, it has to do with work and child care. Nate was the second oldest in his family and his mom stayed at home while his dad worked at a machine shop. All the kids were involved in extracurriculars despite being home schooled-4-H, boy scouts, baseball, baton, bowling, orcastra, youth group, etc. Actually, they were much more involved than I was and I went to public school. The situation in your family could have easily occurred if there had just been 2 kids in your family.

 

[Romy]

Well, seeing that you guys were the youngest I doubt you would understand how it truley feels. Quite some time ago, my mother got a job, a night shift from 3 pm to 12 am( little choice on that matter), and my little sister had only me to take care of her. I was in high school, this lasted for almost three years. My older siblings were out of the house. I could not do any extre currcular activities, I could not go to the college I wanted to go because no one was here to take care of my little sister. I couldn't go out, do any of the normal teenage activites. I had to feed her, make sure she did her chores, help her on her homework, etc. I felt like a mother, which I resented, but never complained. It is not like that anymore since my mother was fired from her job.

Taking care of younger siblings is no problem every now and then. I had no problem taking care of my sister AND younger nephews when they needed me. Becoming a mother to them is a different story.

I'm the middle kid of only 5, and yes I did take care of my younger siblings. My younger brother has Asperger's. He had to be home schooled. When I was in high school my parents both got jobs as janitors, so I had to stay up with him all night and miss my first period class every day until they got off work because he couldn't be unsupervised. Was it ideal? Not really since I had to miss a class and got no sleep (which was totally fine with me, we played a lot of video games together all night long, lol). Did it bug me? No. Do I regret it? No. Would I do it again? Heck yes.

And I did date a guy in high school who was a childhood friend that came from a family of 10 children. He was the second oldest. Yes, he got irritated at his younger siblings now and then (like we all do ) but for the most part he loved it. I'd go over and help them make bread and stuff, and it was fun. They really were a happy loving family. Their kids are all well adjusted, self sufficient adults now. And a friend of mine Tucson came from a family of 10 kids, her husband came from a family of 10 kids (he was the oldest) and they both really loved it so much they planned on having 10 kids themselves. He was in med school so he could support a family that size eventually. Their adult siblings were constantly coming over to visit with them and going on trips together, so they all stayed close as adults too.

My husband was the second oldest of five kids, but his cousins had to come live with his family for several years when they were elementary school aged. So it was just his mom taking care of 9 kids. They all pitched in and helped, they all talk fondly of when they used to live together, and they're all really close friends still.

It all boils down to this:

People are individuals. Families are all different. Not everybody wants or can handle the same thing.

I have no opinion on the Dugars or whatever really since I've never seen their show. Just people complaining about their family size.

Edit: Posted at the same time as Sillysally.

That's been my experience too. My BFs family, ALL the kids played at least one instrument. They all sang, the older ones were in choir and marching band. They got to play sports and hang out with friends. They got to have friends over all the time. It was a very kid friendly house and a fun place to hang out.

Robert's family they all played sports and did whatever other things they wanted. Robert got private art lessons, debate team, etc. His younger bro went to college on a sports scholarship.

In my family I got to do most things except ballet, but that was because my mom said it would ruin my feet. :rofl1:

 

[CaliTerp07]

You know, as far as I can tell from episodes and interviews, the older children have never been told, "No, you can't pursue your dream, you have to change diapers so Mom doesn't have to." When the kids wanted to be volunteer firefighters or take college classes or go to a music conference or go on a mission trip to Asia, Mom and Dad encouraged it.

Sure, they don't sit around playing video games or surfing the internet, but is that so bad? I think the majority of my 8th grade students would be better off if they spent more time with their families and less time time in front of the free babysitter (the tv). My students all come from dual working families and low income homes. They would thrive in a home with so much responsibility and people to talk to.

 

[Tahla9999]

Your situation has nothing to do with number of children, it has to do with work and child care. Nate was the second oldest in his family and his mom stayed at home while his dad worked at a machine shop. All the kids were involved in extracurriculars despite being home schooled-4-H, boy scouts, baseball, baton, bowling, orcastra, youth group, etc. Actually, they were much more involved than I was and I went to public school. The situation in your family could have easily occurred if there had just been 2 kids in your family.

The point I'm trying to make is that the older girls in the family have no choice but to be mothers to all of these kids. What do you think happens when the mother is pregnant? Josie, who is almost two, is going to be passed on to one of the daugthers to raise so the mother can raise the new baby when he/she comes. She does that ALL the time. The daughters are MOTHERS, which is very different from being a responsible older sibling.

Why I compared my sitaution to theirs? I had to be fully responsible for my sister for a time. I feed her, made sure she did her chores, help her with her homework, made sure she came back from playing, etc. Due to that, I had to lose many freedoms that I could have had if I did not have to take care of her. I felt like a teenage mom, and I had to give up many things that a lot of teenage moms had to give up. Not like a responsible older sibling. Can't make it more simpler than that.

I sympathize with the children. The mom and dad, imo, did not think of the kids when they had all these kids. Oh, and having a bunch of pets is nothing similar to having a bunch children.

 

[CaliTerp07]

The point I'm trying to make is that the older girls in the family have no choice but to be mothers to all of these kids. What do you think happens when the mother is pregnant? Josie, who is almost two, is going to be passed on to one of the daugthers to raise so the mother can raise the new baby when he/she comes. She does that ALL the time. The daughters are MOTHERS, which is very different from being a responsible older sibling.

Why I compared my sitaution to theirs? I had to be fully responsible for my sister for a time. I feed her, made sure she did her chores, help her with her homework, made sure she came back from playing, etc. Due to that, I had to lose many freedoms that I could have had if I did not have to take care of her. I felt like a teenage mom, and I had to give up many things that a lot of teenage moms had to give up. Not like a responsible older sibling. Can't make it more simpler than that.

I sympathize with the children. The mom and dad, imo, did not think of the kids when they had all these kids. Oh, and having a bunch of pets is nothing similar to having a bunch children.

Have you ever read interviews with the families? I mean, I guess you could speculate that the kids are being forced to say what they say, but the recurring theme is that the kids (all the kids) like the big families, enjoy getting new siblings, and want big families themselves. If it was so awful, why wouldn't all the kids who are over 18 have left the home to get back their "freedoms"?

I read an interview the other day about another super large family of 18+ kids, and the kids were quoted as saying they begged mom and dad for another baby, offered to do more chores if they could have another sibling, etc.

You could assume they're all brainwashed...or you could go with the idea that they actually don't see taking care of their siblings as a punishment, because it's a joy for them to be valued, needed members of the household. There's a lot of pride and joy that comes from being needed. I see my students head down the wrong path every day because they serve no purpose in their home--their only "job" is to go to school and hang out with friends, and they realize that they aren't really all that necessary to their family.

Do you feel sorry for the kids who grow up on a farm and have no choice but to skip out on extracurriculars because they have to milk cows and harvest wheat? Do you feel sorry for kids born into families where they have to work for their family's business every day from the time they're old enough to see over the counter? Do you feel sorry for the kids whose parents run an animal rescue and constantly have litters of puppies in the kitchen that they have to care for after school? Or do you think it's neat (like I do) that they're being included in something important and valued and spending time with their family?

I would never in a million years want 20 kids, because I know that I don't have the time management skills or patience to manage that every day. But if these super large families can and do...well, then I'm not going to feel sorry for those kids. They aren't being abused. If they don't like the lifestyle, they can head off and lead their own lives at 18, just like we all do.

 

[cloudcandy]

So many topics have been touched on that I can't comment on all.Except to say that I grew up as the eldest of 4.Now this is'nt big by any standerds however I was expexted to help out.I can't remember ever being told specifically to care for the children I just loved loved loved it.I'd spend the weekends getting every one to create plays and imaginery games all day,and I made sure everyone got their homework done.Granted I was a big bossy boots who also happened to love children(was a only child up until 6).I love that factor of how I was raised,it's made me super confident around children and babies.So many of my peers at that age did'nt and still don't have a clue how to change a nappy or hoe to hold a baby.I think this boils down to slighlty more traditional family values:families being together...working together for the good of everyone involved...sitting down to meals together and enjoying eachother.
As for having 20children well to me that is crazzzzyyyy...way too many children and I'm not a baby making machine however I have no issue with someone who wants to do this if the children's need's are met and they can afford it!It's the families I read about that have 10children and both parents arr o on benefits that make me mad!!!!
Oh and also,noone here can really guess how these kids feel we can all say "poor things..".etc but we don't know how happy they are.I've always had people say "Oh no...poor you" when I say I grew up in 2 bedroom flat with 6 people,I shared a room with all my siblings until I was 17(and I left).Apparently it's caled overcrowding but I loved it!We were never alone,yes sometimes it sucked but most of the time it was such fun.We would stay up all night talking,getting up to no good.Not having a "room of my own" (which so many people told us was sooo important)seemed like the most boring thjng in the world to me!
So yeah,what I was trying to say there is we can't judge how those kids feel.How your raised really will affect how you see their situation.

 

[jess2416]

just gonna say Ditto to Fran, Beanie, Romy, SillySally, and whoever else I forgot...

sheesh, good lord

like one of my favorite quotes says:

"People take different roads, seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they aren't on the same road you are on, doesn't mean they have gotten lost"

or the better version:

"If your not feeding me, fcking me, or financing me, its none of your business what I do"