The AKC Ruins Breeds

[Dekka]

This may be beating a dead horse, who knows.

But if there is already a system/registry in place for those who work/breed dogs (the ABCA, for example in Border Collies), why is there a need to show these dogs? In my mind there is still not a good reason to put my sound, health tested, strong working dog in a show. Do you really think having these shows for working dogs would stop farmers and ranchers, even trialers, from breeding there good, healthy working dogs when there dog looses in a show?

This doesn't have anything to do with AKC 'ruining breeds', but since it's being discussed now I thought I'd ask.

If the club decided to do confo shows to reward working dogs with sound body types it would be a good thing. The JRT clubs have a mandate, no part of all breed registries. The don't want other breeds/judges having influence on their breed, particularly the registry process.

I have seen some highly titled dogs that weren't structurally that good, and because they are so high drive will work though the pain. How is that good to breed (and often you don't know untill the dog is older and arthritic how much they were working through)

 

[Aleron]

If the club decided to do confo shows to reward working dogs with sound body types it would be a good thing. The JRT clubs have a mandate, no part of all breed registries. The don't want other breeds/judges having influence on their breed, particularly the registry process.

With BCs? I'd say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I can appreciate the ABCA's position on written standards and would think they know what's best for their breed. Sure maybe it could work out ideally, how you say it is in JRTs where people all select for work first and conformation second. But it might work out like it has for GSDs too.

 

[Pops2]

the AKC is just a registry (which means they only really care about your money, hence their new acceptance of mixed breed dogs in certain events). the AKC doesn't ruin breeds.
HOWEVER there is a strong statistical correlation between AKC recognition & loss of working drive & loss of health. so while recognition in & of itself may not ruin the breed it is a STRONG contributing factor. people can spin that any way they want but it is a fact.

 

[Dekka]

The AKC is far more than a registry though. The APA here in Canada is strictly that, a pedigree database. Its a gov organization. They just recongnize breeds and over look the laws that protect purebred animals and people who buy them.. They don't hold shows, or certify judges, they don't hand out titles or anything.

A registry alone likely wouldn't do anything. Its the other thing the AKC does that affects dog breeds.

 

[SaraB]

AKC doesn't ruin breeds, breeders who choose to focus on just one aspect to breed for ruin breeds. A dog is more than a pretty coat, more than just working ability and they should be bred as such.

 

[Blue_Dog]

AKC doesn't ruin breeds, breeders who choose to focus on just one aspect to breed for ruin breeds. A dog is more than a pretty coat, more than just working ability and they should be bred as such.

This.

 

[Dekka]

I had a big long post.. but I just scrapped it.

This is the AKC's mission statement.

AKC Mission Statement

The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership.

AKC’s Objective:

* Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of purebred dogs.

AKC's Core Values:

* We love purebred dogs
* We are committed to advancing the sport of the purebred dog
* We are dedicated to maintaining the integrity of our Registry
* We protect the health and well-being of all dogs
* We cherish dogs as companions
* We are committed to the interests of dog owners
* We uphold high standards for the administration and operation of the AKC
* We recognize the critical importance of our clubs and volunteers

Are they doing that? They are not JUST a registry. They are a governing body, an authority even over their recognized breeds. The system they implemented and support is the root of the problem.

Don't hate the player (the breeders, or AKC officials) hate the game (the system)

 

[release the hounds]

Exactly, their hands are far from clean

 

[Pops2]

Why does it have to be? If you make working a requirement...

because most people focused on conformation DON"T WANT TO WORK THEIR DOGS. alot don't want to bother w/ more than a basic OB let alone real work that involves real time, real effort & real money. most (but not all) are fru fru people that want fru fru dogs. they'll spend thousands to travel cross country to collect ribbons but won't spend $20 for a hunting license or $50 for gas to drive where they need to go to work the dog. they'll spend 2 hours grooming the dog but not and extra 1/2 to an hour a day training for PP. then w/events you have conflicts if you can only afford to go to one event do you go to a working event or a confo event (although most UKC santiong hunting events have confo shows as well, so w/ a little effort events can be multifaceted)? it really boils down to show people focus on what they like & working people focus on what they like. at this point, the ONLY thing about showing that gets me fired up is when some nimrod claims that breeding for confo shows preserves working ability.

 

[Dekka]

Yes that is why you mandate it. To be honest, I am not all that keen on hunting with my jrts. Its risky (to the dogs) However I do feel it is important. Some working breeders make it a requirement for using their studs. There are JRT breeders who never hunt their dogs, they can keep showing confo, they just cant' enter the big classes...

Those costs are a pittance when it comes to showing. THe whole thing is you make shows open to all, but only dogs with working papers/titles what have you, can get championship points and watch a good number of breeders get their dogs back to their roots no matter the costs.

 

[release the hounds]

because most people focused on conformation DON"T WANT TO WORK THEIR DOGS. alot don't want to bother w/ more than a basic OB let alone real work that involves real time, real effort & real money. most (but not all) are fru fru people that want fru fru dogs. they'll spend thousands to travel cross country to collect ribbons but won't spend $20 for a hunting license or $50 for gas to drive where they need to go to work the dog. they'll spend 2 hours grooming the dog but not and extra 1/2 to an hour a day training for PP. then w/events you have conflicts if you can only afford to go to one event do you go to a working event or a confo event (although most UKC santiong hunting events have confo shows as well, so w/ a little effort events can be multifaceted)? it really boils down to show people focus on what they like & working people focus on what they like. at this point, the ONLY thing about showing that gets me fired up is when some nimrod claims that breeding for confo shows preserves working ability.

Pretty much, at least with GSD's. That's why most either get imported here titled and bred, OR they send them back to Germany for their "titles". Most don't want to take the time or effort and just don't care. It's why dogs that aren't "red" enough and work like crazy get no breedings, but the spooky lazy "red" dog will get 100 breedings in the next 2 years or less.

I'm more than happy to keep 2 separate breeds at this point. I have met a few showline gsd's that I did like, but i haven't met one that I liked enough to want to add their DNA back into working lines. I realize this isn't good for genetics, but I'd rather open stud books and add back in some other breeds before going back to showlines.

 

[Pops2]

Yes that is why you mandate it. To be honest, I am not all that keen on hunting with my jrts. Its risky (to the dogs) However I do feel it is important. Some working breeders make it a requirement for using their studs. There are JRT breeders who never hunt their dogs, they can keep showing confo, they just cant' enter the big classes...

Those costs are a pittance when it comes to showing. THe whole thing is you make shows open to all, but only dogs with working papers/titles what have you, can get championship points and watch a good number of breeders get their dogs back to their roots no matter the costs.

and if the AKC required it the majority of breeders would mostly jump ship to another registry that didn't and/or dumb down the requirements. heck field trials already fall way short of real work. how much less like work would they become if they were a requirement for CH.
an option that i feel would bring work back to the forefront w/o mandating it is:
the judge evaluates each dog individually w/ a score card. he scores the dog against the standard (not each other). then an official record keeper takes the cards & ADDS BONUS points for performance titles (which would include breed specific titles like badger, fox & coon dog for terriers & generic titles like CGC, rally & OB). the highest total points dictates the winner. so a dog that scores 95 against the standard w/ no titles loses to a dog that scores 89 and has a dozen performance titles.

 

[Dekka]

They might, they might not. If you phased it in, the thing is the AKC has clout, it has brand name recognition. When I talk to the general public and talk about going to dog shows.. they all think Westminster.

And you wouldn't stop them from showing, just not getting the good titles. Make it clear to everyone that dogs in the B stream are not as 'good' as the dogs in the 'A' stream.

It gets tricky with toys, as they don't have 'jobs'. But allowing showing but no points till adulthood for all dogs would be a good start.

 

[Kat09Tails]

It gets tricky with toys, as they don't have 'jobs'. But allowing showing but no points till adulthood for all dogs would be a good start.

Basic obedience including being housebroken is a pretty good job test that a ton of toy breeding stock would fail miserably. Proper temperament testing and healthy enough to jump on/off a couch, and walk around the 55 degree normal city block on a normal leash without looking like they're dying of heat exhaustion would be a good job. Whatever pekes, italian greyhounds, papillons, poms, toy fox terriers, toy poodles, yorkies, and chis are left after that I'd be happy to call an improvement.

 

[Laurelin]

I must be lucky because I haven't known any paps that can't function as a real dog (ie, walk, run, and do doggy things normally). And I've known a lot of papillons from a lot of breeders. (At least a few hundred honestly) I do know through hearsay of one breeder that supposedly has had a ton of leg breaks and thus doesn't let her dogs run (could break a leg) or jump (could break a leg). If that's true, something is very wrong. Summer, Beau, Rose, and Bernard's breeder has a philosophy that not letting them jump does more harm than good by not building up the muscles so when they do jump, they tend to injure themselves. I do the same and let my dogs jump off the couch (even the back of it sometimes), and they run every day as fast as they can. So far neither she nor I have had any broken bones or other size related injuries. Mia's breeder has pretty consistently produced some great agility and other sports dogs so that to me shows that the dogs are pretty trainable and are athletic and sturdy enough to handle agility.

Like I said before, toys though are probably the worst group as a whole as far as how extreme they are. However, working them doesn't solve the problems because they don't work. But all dogs should be able to run and jump without getting overheated in a few minutes or breaking a leg, they should be able to walk, and they shouldn't be so small that hypoglycemia is a worry even when they're an adult.

If I were magically in charge of toy breeds and got to make the rules, I'd make the first rule that the minimum size limit for ALL toy breeds was 4 lbs. It floors me that breeders are purposefully showing and breeding less than 4 lb dogs knowing full well that that kind of size isn't healthy and complicates births and lifelong health substantially more than the dogs a few pounds larger. Health testing is rare in toys too so I'd push that. Make it a requirement. And then I would require dogs to be kept in a house setting. (They are companions after all, that is their job so they should be able to do it).

 

[MandyPug]

If Pugs looked more like Izzie and less like bloated little boxes on legs that can't breathe, then i'd be a lot happier with Conformation activities in my breed. However as long as the non-functioning dog is the winner, nothing will change. You have to have an overweight dog to win in the Pug ring. Borderline obese even. Most Pugs showing are out of the standard for weight which is 14-18lbs, but the ones in the ring are 20lbs+. At 20lbs+ how do they even qualify for a toy breed anymore? Lhasas are non-sporting and they're smaller than that and are mainly companions. The trends in the Pug ring are heavier and heavier Pugs with bigger nose wrinkles and shorter faces, shorter bodies, and bigger heads. They can't breathe without nare surgeries and palate trims. If the dog needs surgery to BREATHE it shouldn't be winning and definitely shouldn't be bred. But they are and the judges don't care, the registry doesn't care, the club doesn't care, and certainly the handlers and breeders don't care either.

 

[Kat09Tails]

If the dog needs surgery to BREATHE it shouldn't be winning and definitely shouldn't be bred. But they are and the judges don't care, the registry doesn't care, the club doesn't care, and certainly the handlers and breeders don't care either.

If the dog needs surgery to breathe and they take it in the show ring they are CHEATING. If the dog needs surgery so it can see, they are cheating. If a dog is medicated (yep, even rescue remedy) to be in the ring they are cheating.

AKC has a pretty strict rules about this stuff. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS3.pdf (page 47) It just sucks these rules are not enforced, and are openly broken regularly.

 

[Lilavati]

If the dog needs surgery to breathe and they take it in the show ring they are CHEATING. If the dog needs surgery so it can see, they are cheating. If a dog is medicated (yep, even rescue remedy) to be in the ring they are cheating.

AKC has a pretty strict rules about this stuff. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS3.pdf (page 47) It just sucks these rules are not enforced, and are openly broken regularly.

The problem is that they are essentially unenforceable . . .

Actually, I can think of lots of jobs for toy breeds . . . because they do have a job: to be a companion. That includes things noted above, like good health, house training, basic obedience, leash skills, and a pleasant temperment. If they need more "skills" why not ask that they know not only basic obedience, but a certain number of "tricks" . . . shaking hands, waiving, rolling over . . .basically nonconventional obediance things that make charming little dogs more charming. Because being charming and funny and wonderful to be around is their JOB. And yes, do the testing in a house setting . . . with several strangers they need to interact with.

 

[StillandSilent]

What about a GCG or TT for dogs bred primarily for companionship? I know that that's not supposed to be hard to get, but it's something.

Not that either one of mine could get one, but they aren't breeding stock either. Though to be fair, Argon could have passed if he hadn't decided to flop onto his back like a dead goat and lay there instead of heeling.

 

[Kat09Tails]

Unenforceable is different than not having the will to enforce them.

When you see the dog's hairpiece fall out in the ring. You have got to wonder why the dog isn't disqualified. When you can see the guy dope his dog an hour before their turn in the ring when he's got his crates 4 feet away from ringside you have to wonder. When the dog has enough chalk on him to leave a trail behind him like some kind of dog shaped powdered donut you have to wonder. When you see the puppy being sold as a show prospect with the eyelid stitches showing in the picture, again one wonders.

Eventually the pattern of behavior and non consequences becomes to the point of just acknowledging the system itself is corrupt to it's core.