Rally?

[ihartgonzo]

I agree, Smeagle! I have seen so many dogs competing in Obedience who are clearly working in a state of fear. Soooo sad. I cannot imagine beating or intimidating my dog into competing in a dog sport, it's mind-blowing, but there are so many oldschool trainers in obedience (and especially in schutzhund!!!!). Oldschool training really isn't an option in Agility, and sports like it, that require the dog to be super amped up and excited and happy to perform well.

 

[smeagle]

I agree, Smeagle! I have seen so many dogs competing in Obedience who are clearly working in a state of fear. Soooo sad. I cannot imagine beating or intimidating my dog into competing in a dog sport, it seems like an oxymoron, but there are way more oldschool trainers in obedience (and especially in schutzhund!!!!).

Funnily enough I know quite a few people who train in Schutzhund and I would have to say their methods are far more modern than the old obedience yank and crank we still see used here.

At least in Schutzhund points are given for the working relationship between the handler and the dog, in obedience it doesn't matter if the dog is working with a nice attitude as long as it completes the commands given.

At a trial last week I saw a dog who during heelwork walked next to the handler and the whole time, refused to meet the owner's eyes and looked straight ahead. Yet it maintained heel position so... it scored nicely.

Whereas my dog will go into the ring, she will work with a brilliant attitude, head up watching me the whole time, eyes lit up, tail wagging so hard it might fall off, a prance in her step (when I get my handling right that is and don't have an anxiety attack before we even step off the post... LOL) and we will score exactly the same as the dog above.

 

[colliewog]

I don't know about other countries, but obedience here is still trained in quite an 'old school' way by a lot of people and clubs. Often at trials you watch dogs that look like they are just going through the motions and it's sadly in the minority to see a dog working with a truly great attitude and relationship with the handler.

I think that is TOTALLY about the training methods used not about the sport itself.

Obedience can be just as fun as agility or rally-o, IMO, my dog loves doing obedience and one thing that we get lots of comments on is how hard she wags her tail the whole time she's working. And I have a breed that has a rep for being "hard to train".

I didn't mean obedience couldn't be fun (sorry if it came across that way), just that rally is more relaxed and it seems to show in the dogs. I've done both and I enjoyed rally more, but there are happy obedience dogs out there too ... don't get me wrong!

 

[JacksonsMom]

I'm glad you started this thread because I was kind of interested in it, too.... my training place I go to now doesn't offer it. The closest place I can find with things like rally/nosework/freestyle is almost an hour away so I think I'm going to wait for somewhere closer, otherwise I'd love to try it out. We're just going to do more agility in the summer.

 

[nikkiluvsu15]

I'm glad you started this thread because I was kind of interested in it, too.... my training place I go to now doesn't offer it. The closest place I can find with things like rally/nosework/freestyle is almost an hour away so I think I'm going to wait for somewhere closer, otherwise I'd love to try it out. We're just going to do more agility in the summer.

Thats the drive I have to go for ALL of Harleigh's classes. Well, actually, thats how far I have to drive for 99% of things dog related (vet, food, park, etc) :rofl1:

Right now we just have our Agility classes on Monday's, we'll be adding either CGC Prep, Nose Work or Rally on another day. I hope the gas prices don't get TOO high :yikes: lol

 

[Southpaw]

I would like to try rally but Juno would be an embarrassment LOL. Well, she'd be fine in the class itself, but competition nooooo way. I know she'd enjoy agility--would she be good, God only knows, but running around and jumping over things is what she lives for.

I could have sworn the place we train at had a rally class. I thought that was one of the reasons why I was taking their manners classes LOL but I'm not seeing rally on the website so I don't know what I was looking at. :rofl1:

 

[Lizmo]

Could someone explain in detail what each level consists of in Rally?

The only way we'd be able to compete is if we trained by ourselves then went to a competition atleast 1-2+ hours away. Which I'm not opposed to, but...yeah.

From what Elegy said the APDT level 3 (Rally?) is, we have all that now.

 

[Shai]

Could someone explain in detail what each level consists of in Rally?

Which venue?

 

[Lizmo]

Good question, what are the different venues?

 

[Dekka]

IMO competition obedience is actually harder than agility IMO.

Ok it is for me? I have a few dogs with their CDs, HITs and one dog one leg away from a CDX. I started in obed. Agility to me is harder because you need a thinking dog that is obedient, but also has some autonomy. Speed is of no real consequence in obed.

There is a reason in agility you still get your placement even if you don't Q. You can have many dogs run a course with very few Qs. You can't train for all possibilities in agility, in obedience its pretty set. Now it might depend on your agility venue, but in my experience it is harder than obedience simply down to the number of behavours needed, the speed at which it needs to be done at and the variety of the courses...

Rally I find pretty easy. But then I have done formal obed first. I agree with Beanie that you should try for a good heel, you never know where you may go. AND if you train for an awesome heel you will be safe even if you or your dog get a little frazzled in a rally trial.

 

[Dekka]

For those in Canada...

Handbook Information
there is also CKC, but its easier than CARO, so if you can do CARO rally you are away to the races lol.

I never took any classes in rally. Just look up the signs and practice. Both Kaiden and Dekka got their RNMCL in one trial first time out.

 

[Shai]

Good question, what are the different venues?

I do, or did, APDT

The other two big ones in the U.S. are AKC and UKC.

Regionally, there is also C-Wags, which I know little about.


The people I know that do all 3 of the big ones at a high level, say the order of difficulty is APDT, UKC, AKC.

From what I've seen this is true...at a UKC trial obedience I attended recently (I was entered Open Obe -- for the first time -- but watched quite a bit of the Rally as well) there were a LOT of perfect scores...more than I've ever seen in APDT...and they were really letting things like minor lagging/forging, sloppy left turns (90, 180, 270, 360), etc. go by without deduction, which would not be the case in APDT. However, in APDT one may use food rewards after certain stationary signs...but can't repeat commands as much as in the other venues.

 

[Lizmo]

Could you tell me more about the different levels in APDT then?

 

[Dekka]

I believe CARO was taken from APDT rally, so the levels will be very similar if not the same. Unlike CKC/AKC you have to pass each station.

 

[Shai]

Right, you have to get a 170 to Q Levels 1, 2, and 3, but if you lose 10 pts on a single station you automatically NQ, even if your final score is then 200.

A "perfect" run is 200 pts, but there is an option 10 point "bonus" exercise, the difficulty of which varies by level. So the max score for any run is a 210. If you get a 200 and say you have a perfect run in APDT you will get an odd look lol.

Before the dog you are running earns the title for a given level, the team competes in the "A" category so you are only competing against others who haven't titled yet. Once you get the 3 Q's (score 170 or above), you either move to "B" and compete at the same level against other titled people, or you move up a level and are in the "A" group for that level until you once again get 3 Q's.

If you earn at least a 195 for all three of your first attempts in A for a given level, you get a Certificate of Merit (COE) with your title to show, basically, that you titled in a classy fashion (lol).

There are also championship titles...

ARCH (APDT Rally Champion) -- Need to have your Level 1 and Level 2 titles. This requires 5 QQ's in Level 1 & 2 (need a 190 score to count it) and a total of 100 points where a 190 = 0 pts, 191 = 1 pts...up to a 210 (perfect + perfect bonus) = 20 pts.

ARCHX (ARCH Excellent) -- Need Level 1 and 2 titles and the ARCH. Requires 5 QQ's of at least 195 pts in Levels 1 & 2.

ARCHEX (ARCH Extraordinaire) -- Need the ARCHX. Requires 10 QQs of at least 195 pts in Levels 2 & 3.

ARCHMX (APDT Master Champion) -- Need the ARCHEX. Requires 10 QQQs of at least 195 pts in Levels 1, 2, and 3.


As for what is required at each level, the best bet is to go to Rules and Guidelines and scroll down to the "Signs" for each level, then flip through the signs and just see. If you don't know what a particular sign means, just ask...either with a pic of it or the Level & Sign #.

 

[smeagle]

Ok it is for me? I have a few dogs with their CDs, HITs and one dog one leg away from a CDX. I started in obed. Agility to me is harder because you need a thinking dog that is obedient, but also has some autonomy. Speed is of no real consequence in obed.

There is a reason in agility you still get your placement even if you don't Q. You can have many dogs run a course with very few Qs. You can't train for all possibilities in agility, in obedience its pretty set. Now it might depend on your agility venue, but in my experience it is harder than obedience simply down to the number of behavours needed, the speed at which it needs to be done at and the variety of the courses...

I think it's definitely to each their own, I think obedience is challenging for a lot of people because of the amount of time their dogs are required to focus and work at a "less exciting" speed than agility. Many agility people I know struggle with maintaining a good level of focus on their dogs for the length of time required in obedience and for the tasks required. Obedience is still a sport that whilst it's not "fast" like agility does require a dog to have some decent drive to maintain a good attitude whilst it's working.

I also think the level of obedience we're talking about is relevant to how hard it is and how hard it is to get a Q. I stewarded a UD ring the other week and out of 24 competitors maybe two or three got Qs and none scored highly. My friend just competed at a UD trial a few days ago was the only Q in the ring out of a similar number of competitors (our obedience trials here are all outside too so conditions can make things even more challenging). It's not uncommon at all for there to be no Qs in UD or UDX. Hell, it's not even common here for there to be many Qs in the lower levels of obedience either. I've competed in CCD rings a number of times where there have been either no Qs, or only one or two, and that's the lowest level of obedience you can compete at.

 

[Dekka]

Yes but compare apples to apples. Utility is hard. Here its the hardest level there is. So that would be like comparing it to masters here, or maybe even the challenge class (which requires you to have your masters title first)

How many people don't get a leg in novice? And IME you need more focus (though not strict handler focus) for agility, simply because there is more distractions. And in agility (at least here) your dog has to work away from you. And if you play snooker you need a dog who can pretty much heel past obstacles with out taking them (always a tricky one for Dekka lol) Agility can be self rewarding, obedience less so.

I am thrilled if you find agility easier. Pretty much everyone I know (and a few have OTCHs) say they find agility more challenging, but they love it more so because the challenge. Most of them get their OTCH and pretty much stop doing obed. They stay with agility because its constantly challenging you and you have to keep training.

5 min a day 3-4 days a week would train my dogs for obed competitions in a couple of months, agility no way lol.

 

[smeagle]

How many people don't get a leg in novice? And IME you need more focus (though not strict handler focus) for agility, simply because there is more distractions. And in agility (at least here) your dog has to work away from you. And if you play snooker you need a dog who can pretty much heel past obstacles with out taking them (always a tricky one for Dekka lol) Agility can be self rewarding, obedience less so.

I see stacks of people failing to get a quallie in novice, maybe if they tried hard enough for long enough they can scrape by, but one of the biggest problems I see in our rings over here is that people scrape by in CCD and then absolutely flunk in Novice once the leash is off. Unfortunately a lot of those people give up after CCD for that reason.

I don't know what it's like to trial in your country but I think both agility and obedience have pretty tough distractions. Here, both are run outside in a range of conditions (obedience will run even in the torrential down pour - as long as there isn't any lightening). In obedience the rings are set up next to each other but the rings are only cut off by a rope, I've seen dogs run into the next ring to play with the dog doing heel work next to it on several occasions. Talk about self rewarding!

And then you have people like me who are stubborn enough to compete with breeds like scent hounds where just stepping onto the grass is one big opportunity to self reward and getting even five seconds of focus from my dog used to be like pulling nails.

Personally I think obedience requires a fair bit of control and I don't think it's easy to train a dog to have a high level of focus for a long period of time especially doing something "boring" like heelwork. Though I guess it depends on your standards too. I train for a much higher level of focus in obedience than the average person I see out trialling.

I am thrilled if you find agility easier. Pretty much everyone I know (and a few have OTCHs) say they find agility more challenging, but they love it more so because the challenge. Most of them get their OTCH and pretty much stop doing obed. They stay with agility because its constantly challenging you and you have to keep training.

I think they are two different sports that are hard to compare. I find challenges in both sports. I think I find agility easier for me because I had a good foundation already, I started it with a dog who already knew the basics, knew how to learn and who I had already done a lot of work on to get a good level of drive and focus.

I'm not saying agility is easy - far from it, I find it challenging in many ways.

5 min a day 3-4 days a week would train my dogs for obed competitions in a couple of months, agility no way lol.

You must be a pretty amazing handler with some pretty amazing dogs! (I mean that genuinely). I don't know anyone who could take a dog and have it ready for the obedience ring in two months.

 

[Saeleofu]

I show in AKC rally, but once I'm done with it I plan to put the boys in UKC rally. The rules are a little different and I've already messed up and NQ'd my dogs TWICE, so I don't want to confuse myself and do it wrong...which is why I'm waiting.

Anyway, both dogs LOVE to do rally, and so do I. It's less strict than obedience, though, so some people view it as less of a title. The Excellent level can be pretty challenging, and to get an RAE it does take quite a bit. An RN or RA or depending on the dog an RE can each be knocked out in a 3 day trial. That's how Logan got his RN and Gavroche got his RA. It makes for a very rewarding weekend

I **** up more than my dogs do. I missed a sign TWICE and NQ'd each of my dogs over it (at two separate trials). So I have taken to counting the signs/stations as I go, and so far it's worked well. I also do the walk-through slowly at least once, and than as fast as I can as many times as I can so the pattern is burned in my head. It also helps to get the course map and study it ahead of time, though some of them are very confusing.

I like rally because it's more relaxed (for the most part...some people are dead serious about it...but I want it to be fun or there's no point in doing it). It's definitely easier for a beginner to really get into than obedience is. Not only are the clubs/handlers more relaxed and welcoming, but the judging itself is too. I've had people come up to me at a trial multiple times and ask about something, and I have happily demonstrated it (usually a question about how a certain exercise is done...I never had a problem remembering the signs, but some people do). Competition is generally less cut-throat than it is in obedience. You can praise, clap, move your body (but not your feet!), anything but use treats to get your dog's attention/do what they need to do in the novice and advanced levels. Excellent is a little more strict, but still much less strict than obedience.

The nice thing about rally is that almost any dog that has a CGC can move into rally pretty quickly with a bit of training. If your dog knows how to sit, down and heel, you can get through a novice run with just clapping and stuff to do the fronts and finishes. It doesn't look as nice, but it can definitely produce a qualifying score. It's definitely a good jumping-off point for other dog sports (I was intimidated by other dog sports, but rally has been a very good introduction and I'm not NEARLY as leery of other sports now).

I agree, Smeagle! I have seen so many dogs competing in Obedience who are clearly working in a state of fear. Soooo sad. I cannot imagine beating or intimidating my dog into competing in a dog sport, it's mind-blowing

I'm not going to say there aren't people who do this, because there are and it is indeed sad that a title is more important than just doing something fun with your dog (and obedience CAN be fun!). But Gavroche looked terrified at the last trial and I swear I don't beat him. It was a 3-day trial and he was SO nervous the entire time. I had to work HAD to get his attention and get him through his runs, and we did terrible all weekend (but still made qualifying scores all 3 days and even got FIRST PLACE on the first day...no freaking clue how that happened, but judging was very inconsistent, and not very strict, that weekend). He was a little nervous at the trials before that, but not nearly to this degree. In hindsight, I think it was all stemming from his thyroid. He was definitely hypothyroid at that point, looking back (he even refused a jump once, which is NOT at all like Gavroche....he loves to jump almost as much as he loves to sleep!), and I think that affected him A LOT. For a few months until we got the thyroid issue diagnosed he was scared of everything unless we were at home. EVERYTHING. But after a few months of treatment he's much better. I think he will still be nervous in the ring, but I'm quite frankly surprised that he will be continuing, when I look back at how he wwas about a month after the last trial. I thought his rally career was over at that point, but I think now we'll definitely finish the RE eventually and then get into the UKC stuff. Not sure if he'll get his RAE, but we'll see.

 

[Aleron]

I agree, Smeagle! I have seen so many dogs competing in Obedience who are clearly working in a state of fear. Soooo sad. I cannot imagine beating or intimidating my dog into competing in a dog sport, it's mind-blowing, but there are so many oldschool trainers in obedience (and especially in schutzhund!!!!). Oldschool training really isn't an option in Agility, and sports like it, that require the dog to be super amped up and excited and happy to perform well.

The dog's performance doesn't always indicate what methods are used. I have seen dogs who were trained with positive methods shut down or work poorly in both rings. And I have seen super fast, enthusiastic dogs in agility who's trainers I know use e-collars. I think people tend to assume the worst when they see dogs performing poorly in the obedience ring. For some reason, the poor performances in agility seem to go unnoticed and they are often just as plentiful in the lower levels. IME the majority of dogs look nervous and work poorly at trials because of poor training, not necessarily methods. Many owners enter their dogs in both venues before they are ready and keep entering them even when it is clear the dog is not going to qualify or if they have, it was just barely.

In obedience, a surprising number of dogs entered in Novice have no idea what heeling is because their owners have not trained them to a reliable level. For obedience, the dog has to be able to heel for an entire pattern with no extra commands, corrections, reminders, treats, praise or encouragement. Most people talk to their dog during heeling while training, give extra commands or help or nagging and training is often done in a ring with other dogs and people. The only time the owner is silent, not offering any further assistance and it's just dog/owner and judge performing is in the ring. This is the cause of many of the stress behaviors you see in the ring, even with dogs who have not been correction trained. And it only gets worse when the owner continues to enter the dog. I have seen dogs I have known were not at all correction trained look like beaten dogs in the ring because they weren't used to their owner expecting them to perform without praise, encouragement and treats for any prolonged time. I think many owners get a false sense of accomplishment when the dog is doing real well in class and don't even give thought to if the dog is performing to competition standards or not.

In many ways, Rally has only encouraged this poor training to go on because it allows extra commands, praise, constant talking, etc. Again giving owners a false sense of accomplishment - you can get a perfect score in Rally and be chatting with your dog the entire time. A dog may look up and happy in Rally but look "beaten" in obedience. Not because dogs naturally like Rally better but because people naturally have a hard time working their dogs silently and training precise obedience behaviors to a high level of reliability. Many dogs who have advanced Rally titles aren't trained to enough reliability to get a CD.

FWIW I have always liked the obedience that most SchH dogs have. Very up, attentive and sure of what their job is. IME while they certainly use correction, many SchH trainers seem to use very motivational methods of teaching the obedience behaviors. We have a SchH person teaching Novice OB at the training club and she was very disappointed that only one student in her class knew what "drive" was, as it pertained to training (several offered that it had to do with rear movement).