Question (Morals)

[Puckstop31]

It may only be one missing link but that is a BIG link if you ask me.

That link is called "Irreducible Complexity". That is the piece that the Evolution Camp will have a challenging time getting around, IMHO.

Still......

But Zoom makes a VERY good point. it could all be connected or it could all be just coincidence.

No one has facts, right now everyone is just arguing their beliefs and nothing more

Bingo! The physical and metaphysical mix just about as well as oil and water.

 

[moxiegrl]

Im not sure why I just read page upon page and don't have anything to add except telling you I have nothing to add!...Wait.. Do some Christians really believe your kids will go to hell if you have them out of wedlock? Wow!

 

[nancy2394]

I sure hope not since I had my daughter out of wedlock nearly 17 years ago.

 

[mjb]

...Wait.. Do some Christians really believe your kids will go to hell if you have them out of wedlock? Wow!

Not in the name of Christianity that I'm aware of.

 

[Renee750il]

The whole "sins of the fathers" thing always struck me as the heighth of Almighty spitefulness. Aside from that, this does a credible job of reconciling the seeming contradictions. http://www.carm.org/diff/Deut5_9.htm

There is a whole webpage http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm devoted to addressing Biblical contradictions.

 

[Julie]

*Come with me to a third grade classroom*....


There is a nine-year-old kid sitting at his desk
and all of a sudden there is a puddle between his feet

and the front of his pants are wet.
He thinks his heart is going to stop because he cannot
possibly
imagine how this has happened It's never happened
before,
and he knows that when the boys find out he will never
hear the end of it.
When the girls find out, they'll never speak to him
again
as long as he lives.
The boy believes his heart is going to stop,
he puts his head down and prays this prayer,
"Dear God, this is an emergency! I need help now!
Five minutes from now I'm dead meat."
He looks up from his prayer and here comes the teacher

with a look in her eyes that says he has been
discovered.
As the teacher is walking toward him, a classmate
named
Susie is carrying a goldfish bowl that is filled with
water.
Susie trips in front of the teacher and inexplicably
dumps
the bowl of water in the boy's lap.
The boy pretends to be angry,
but all the while is saying to himself,
"Thank you, Lord!
Thank you, Lord!
Now all of a sudden, instead of being the object of
ridicule,
the boy is the object of sympathy.
The teacher rushes him downstairs and gives him
gym shorts to put on while his pants dry out.
All the other children are on their hands and knees
cleaning up around his desk.
The sympathy is wonderful.
But as life would have it,
the ridicule that should have been his
has been transferred to someone else -
Susie.
She tries to help, but they tell her to get out.
"You've done enough, you klutz!"
Finally,
at the end of the day,
as they are waiting for the bus,
the boy walks over to Susie and whispers,
"You did that on purpose, didn't you?"
Susie whispers back, "I wet my pants once too."

May God help us see the opportunities that are always
around us to do good.
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian
any more than standing in your garage
makes you a car.

 

[StealthDog]

Just a note on "scientific theory"... The way people normally use the word "theory", it means "idea". As in, "I have a theory about how my dog got out of the house." It means something you don't know for sure, but that you're making an educated guess about.

In science, theory has a very different meaning. Educated guesses are called "hypotheses", and a hypothesis that has lasted for a long time without being shown to be false is called a theory. You can never ever prove that a hypothesis is true... because even if most things follow the rule of your hypothesis, one single exception to your rule makes your hypothesis false. So you do lots of experiments- this works, this works, this works, this works- lots of things agree with your hypothesis. Keep doing that for a long time, and your hypothesis becomes a theory.

Gravity is still a theory, but scientists don't call it a theory because they think it's just an educated guess. "Theory" means that no one has disproven it yet- but science always remains open to change, and someday someone might discover that gravity does not exist.

One of my favorite bits of evidence for evolution on a micro scale are our own dog breeds. Humans managed to take one species and turn it into hundreds of different shapes, enhance certain behaviors, get coat lengths and colors that would never exist in a wolf. Evolution is the same thing, but instead of humans chosing who gets to breed and survive, the environment does (and of course it takes a lotttttt longer!).

 

[M&M's Mommy]

*Come with me to a third grade classroom*....

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian
any more than standing in your garage
makes you a car.

Absolutely agree!! As a devout Catholic who has never voluntarily missed a single Sunday Mass in my entire life , I can attest to this. Going to Church gives me strengh to carry on for the entire week. It's where I go to recharge my battery , then, the rest of the week is where I actually try to live as a Christian.

 

[Sunnypup]

wow...we've come a loooong way from point a...
Just my little bit o input:

I don't believe in evolution with a capital E but obviously micro evolution takes place all around us. I definatly believe that God set things in motion, however it was done, which I plan to inquire about when we meet face to face . I also believe the reason that EVERY LIVING THING is composed of nearly the same materials is because it says in the bible that God created all of them from the earth.
More and more scientests and paleontologists are figuring out what Christians have known all along: The bible contains actual, historical, factual data. They just found what is very likely Mt. Sinai . Biblical cities and artifacts that match exactly what is written in the bible. It's amazing. Seriously.

I take what science says with a grain of salt.It wasn't so long ago that there were dinosaur species that don't exist but scientists MADE UP out of other animal skeletons. It was good to have a child bled out to heal a sickness around the same time the theory of evolution was concieved. Every day science is saying that what they believed yesterday is false and they have new facts for us to digest about what is "real" what is "truth" in the world. Personally, my bible hasn't changed. You can buy all original translations of the bible directly copied from the original text. Sure, a hyphen might be off here or there, I don't know. But for sure I'm not going to find out tomorrow that "that whole thing about that flood thing...never happened, factual data was off, our theory was wrong..." or "that Jesus guy...never really lived, sorry." But scientific theory does that every day.

I'd rather trust a God man finds mean because they don't want to follow His word, then follow a man who changes his mind every day about what is truth.

I do not believe sex before marriage is sinful or that having children out of wedlock means that my children will go to Hell. I also do not agree that the sins of the parents will be visited upon their children, if God is a fair and just God how can this be validated?

I don't think having children out of wedlock means the children will go to hell either! Who told you THAT doozy?!:yikes: I DO believe the sins of the parents will rest visited upon the children but NOT the way you mean. My parents struggled financially. They just could NOT budget for anything. I never learned how...I'm STRUGGLING to manage a budget.
I know a kid who was mollested...His father mollested him. His father mollested him...
I think the verse means to be careful, train your children up in the way that is right. God isn't forcing the sin on the children, the children are buying into it because they weren't shown any better.

Sex before marriage IS sinful because we are expressedly told so in the bible, and with stds running rampant it is not safe.

Julie, very cool post. It almost made me cry.

I know men who have turned away from homosexuality and would never go back, they are so happily married to their wives and love their kids. They just decided one day it wasn't for them, or it was wrong and stopped. Soo...I wouldn't say %100 it isn't something you can change. again, just my 2cents

Sin is sin, no matter how big or small.God can and will forgive any and all of it hourly if you ask. The important part is in the asking.

Tessa, keep going girl. I wasn't around for a bit and oh boy are you doing SUCH a better job at this then me! Keep it up little sister!

 

[sparks19]

Just a note on "scientific theory"... The way people normally use the word "theory", it means "idea". As in, "I have a theory about how my dog got out of the house." It means something you don't know for sure, but that you're making an educated guess about.

In science, theory has a very different meaning. Educated guesses are called "hypotheses", and a hypothesis that has lasted for a long time without being shown to be false is called a theory. You can never ever prove that a hypothesis is true... because even if most things follow the rule of your hypothesis, one single exception to your rule makes your hypothesis false. So you do lots of experiments- this works, this works, this works, this works- lots of things agree with your hypothesis. Keep doing that for a long time, and your hypothesis becomes a theory.

Gravity is still a theory, but scientists don't call it a theory because they think it's just an educated guess. "Theory" means that no one has disproven it yet- but science always remains open to change, and someday someone might discover that gravity does not exist.

One of my favorite bits of evidence for evolution on a micro scale are our own dog breeds. Humans managed to take one species and turn it into hundreds of different shapes, enhance certain behaviors, get coat lengths and colors that would never exist in a wolf. Evolution is the same thing, but instead of humans chosing who gets to breed and survive, the environment does (and of course it takes a lotttttt longer!).

But gravity can be measured so it is a PHYSICAL thing. Just like Oxygen, just like Hydrogen, just like Carbon Monoxide. It cannot be seen but it CAN be measured therefore it PHYSICALLY exsists.


As for evolution in our dogs, that's all well and good but it is a far cry from Ape to Human. While there may be differences in different breeds of dogs, their DNA is generally the same. Apes and Humans have a COMPLETELY different DNA structure. So you see it's l ike comparing apples and oranges. While a few things here and there have to change for a dog to be a different breed, EVERYTHING must change for Ape to become Human. I would call "evolution" in dogs ADAPTATION. We change them to ADAPT to different things. Just like some insects and other things ADAPT to their surroundings. Their DNA is still generally the same but they don't look exactly the same as the once did.

 

[StealthDog]

But gravity can be measured so it is a PHYSICAL thing. Just like Oxygen, just like Hydrogen, just like Carbon Monoxide. It cannot be seen but it CAN be measured therefore it PHYSICALLY exsists.

I think it was Einstein who said "Not all that can be measured matters, and not all that matters can be measured." ;-) We cannot SEE gravity... we can only play around with it, and use tools that measure what we believe to be the effects of gravity. Admittedly gravity has held up so well that it's considered a law... But even cell theory is still considered a theory, and considering how we can see cells themselves, functioning, metabolizing, all that stuff, that goes to show how strong a theory can be.

As for dogs, absolutely what we've done with breeds would be considered adaptation or modification. But all evolution is is a collection of adaptations over a much larger timescale. If you have time, check out the book "The Beak of the Finch"- it does a better job examining what evolution is and how we can observe it than I ever could.

It was good to have a child bled out to heal a sickness around the same time the theory of evolution was concieved. Every day science is saying that what they believed yesterday is false and they have new facts for us to digest about what is "real" what is "truth" in the world.

Sure, but just because some science changes doesn't mean that all science is wrong. Copernicus figured out that the earth revolved around the sun in the 1500's, and that's still valid science. I love that science keeps updating and modifying itself when new information becomes available... imagine if we were still bleeding out people for illnesses!

 

[blue]

To whomever was the first to post "morals are relative", I give you NAMBLA... I give you any person who veiws sex with a child morally OK. I give you polygamists. I give you anti semites and racial bigots. I give unto you religious zealots of any denomonation.

Right and wrong are not relative. To me premaritial sex is a grey area, a forced mariage to a child is not. What NAMBLA veiws as normal is not. Polygamy is wierd but still not normal, actually if a man can make a polygamist mariage work with all the wives in agreement that shouldnt be normal but if they can make it work who are we to say its wrong?

 

[Ashlea]

Great point Blue.

Humans and apes do share DNA, were are very genetically similar. We share 98.2% of our DNA with the Bonobo Chimp.
The reason we do not have tails is because we are ape, greater primate, not monkey or lower primate. Apes do not have tails.

Evolution to me is fact, like God to others is fact. People are saying you cannot prove evolution therefore it is wrong, can you prove God?

 

[blue]

Evolution and creationisn coexist, not can but do. The Catholic Church has one the the most advanced cosmic obsevitories on the planet, that is only one example of science and religeon coexisting, at least it isnt religeon coexisting with terrorists.

I believe the late Douglas Adams had it right about God, if God was proven what good is faith.

 

[bubbatd]

I think it's interesting that evolutionists are now believing more in creation . Who knows what Adam and Eve looked like and when they came into the picture !?

 

[jess2416]

I think its interesting how this thread EVOLVED from sex to evolution/creation opcorn: :lol-sign:

 

[Zoom]

It's all related.

Seriously, I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[jess2416]

It's all related.

Seriously, I was just thinking the same thing.

:lol-sign: heheh....I just had to throw that in there