Opinions on training

[~Tucker&Me~]

So this ad popped up on craigslist today, and I was just curious what everyone's opinion are, specifically about this part:

I work an hour with the dog alone, then 30-60 minutes with the owner showing them what we worked on so the owner can implement the training through-out the week, until the next session where we learn something new.

Would you ever be interested in a trainer who wanted to work directly with the dog but without you for part of the process? I am not sure I would be comfortable with that. Thoughts?

Here is the full ad:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rds/pet/3293845066.html

 

[Lyzelle]

I'm not sure.

In one way, it would be nice. Especially if it was the OWNER that was the problem, not the dog. For example, Zander knows sit. But Jin doesn't necessarily always translate the command well. And there's no way he could currently teach Zander anything new, because he often gets his hand signals mixed up. So if the dog was learning something new, and the trainer wanted to make fast progress, s/he could teach the dog the initial command, then spend the rest of the time working with the owner on how to properly ask the dog of the command or implement the behavior.

Otherwise, the entire session would just be trying to get the owner to stop confusing the dog with 5 different signals for one resulting command.

In another, I really don't trust many trainers alone with my dogs. For many reasons.

 

[Laurelin]

Nope, I would not be comfortable. I will let a trainer I know and trust handle my dog but I want to be right there to watch everything and put a stop to something if I don't like it.

 

[Red.Apricot]

Absolutely not, no. It's not something I'd be comfortable with, and even if it were, I wouldn't be interested. Training is fun.

 

[Linds]

For other people it might work fabulously but I barely want to let someone hold my dogs while I go to the bathroom so I would not be comfortable leaving them with a stranger for an extended amount of time.

I can see how teaching the dog and then teaching the human could work well. But I just would NOT be able to do that.

 

[MyHorseMyRules]

Most people aren't Chazzers. I can see how that might work out better for JQP and their dog.

 

[skittledoo]

I really really try not to complain about my work. I do enjoy the people I work with and I absolutely wont name the company so as not to slander obviously.

That said, among the many things I do disagree with when it comes to the company I work for... the bootcamp is one of those things on the list. We offer a bootcamp where the dog stays there for a week or two and a trainer works one on one with the dog. On one hand, from a trainer POV I can see how sometimes it's nice to work alone with the dog... I much prefer to work individually with dogs rather than teach people how to work with their dogs. But... for one thing the owners don't get to see how their dogs are being worked with which may or may not be methods they are comfortable with. Some of our trainers I'm way less comfortable with than others as far as training methods. At the end of the bootcamp the trainer meets with the owner and goes over what they worked on and how they worked on it and shows the owner what to do etc etc... but... I guess I fail to see the point. If the owner is going to be the main person handling the dog then shouldn't the owner be a part of the process from beginning to end? That's my personal take on it. Unfortunately I've seen multiple bootcamp dogs return later on to be "retrained" because whatever they were trained they no longer do/don't do etc. I don't see it as a very effective program most of the time.

 

[Southpaw]

I don't know. My only hang up would be that I don't know what they're really doing. I don't want someone saying they only use r+ but then when I give them the leash, they're using corrections. I'll correct my dog but I don't want others doing it especially if I'm not there.

In general though I have no issues handing over my dogs. No biggie.

 

[SpringerLover]

Honestly, I've learned that for a person learning to shape, working with an already operant dog (and a few other modifiers) is the best way. In that same vein, I'd rather start a few behaviors on a new-to-training dog myself than have the owners get frustrated. I equate it to learning how to ride a horse on a well-seasoned, dependable, reliable horse.

Would I let someone else borrow my dog? Probably, if it's any of the group of friend-trainers I have and trust. Joe Schmoe, of course not.

 

[Fran101]

First off, I would not trust just anyone with my dog. People say they only use +R.. but do they really mean it?

Second..I work with dogs. every day. I'm a dog walker. and let me just say.. the way a dog acts around one person =/= the way a dog acts around another.
In a few days I have MOST of the dogs I walk now not pulling on the leash for example.
I have still seen them yanking their owners off their feet.

Lots of dog knows sit means sit in the kitchen.
Not many know it means sit anywhere else.

So I can't say I'm confident a dog knows that commands/rules from one person co-relates to another person and environment.

Perhaps if the camp BEGAN with just trainers but then the owners were re-introduced and taught to work on the cues themselves.
..that I would understand

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I work up to 11 hours a day without my clients present. They receive a full report card, photos, videos, and demos when they pick up. It works wonders, it's called doggy bootcamp or day-school.

Many owners are detrimental to their dogs training in the beginning phases, we've found a lot of dogs do better in our classes after a couple days at bootcamp.

It's not for everyone but if I had someone I trusted (and yes, I do trust some with my dogs) I would definitely do it. If I felt anyone at my facility really could work Backup I'd drop him off regularly to work his agility when I don't have time.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Honestly, I've learned that for a person learning to shape, working with an already operant dog (and a few other modifiers) is the best way. In that same vein, I'd rather start a few behaviors on a new-to-training dog myself than have the owners get frustrated. I equate it to learning how to ride a horse on a well-seasoned, dependable, reliable horse.

Would I let someone else borrow my dog? Probably, if it's any of the group of friend-trainers I have and trust. Joe Schmoe, of course not.

This is exactly what we experience at work. Owners who do a few days of BC before a class are far less flustered, the dogs have a clue about what is being asked, and the team is far better placed to start learning right away instead of frustratingly fumbling through the first week (or two, or three).

 

[RD]

I think it's ineffective. I've tried it, personally, when I was working as a trainer and the hardest part of "boot camp" or removing the dog from the problem ( which in 90% of JQP cases is the owner) is getting the dog's behavior adjustments to transfer over to the owner when I hand them the leash.

When I teach new behaviors to dogs that have never been properly trained, when I introduce the clicker, when I basically need to teach the dog how to learn, I do often ask an inexperienced owner if I can work with the dog myself for a little while, they can observe but I prefer if they keep quiet and don't try to give me or the dog any suggestions, so the dog can get a good solid idea about what I want from them. It makes it easier, then, for the owner to learn how to clicker train.

I've taken dogs home with me for boot camp, mostly free-fed dogs with massive drive/motivation issues who needed a diet and some NILIF, and their elderly owners were initially not really emotionally capable of "depriving" their dog of food and love and everything they were getting for free.

As a dog owner I wouldn't really want someone training my dog without me seeing what was going on, but that's because I'm nosy and always like to observe. Some people aren't nosy, some people are immense backseat drivers when anyone else has their dog's leash, some people can't control themselves and cause the dog to lose it, etc...

I can see where it has its place, and it's certainly more fun for the trainer, but personally I wouldn't be paying someone to train my dog for me, I'd be paying them to teach me to train my dog.

 

[adojrts]

I agree, with the right trainer that you trust, it can work. I often do In Home sessions like this or have dogs dropped off here. I work with them, get some behaviours well started and then teach the owner how to get those behaviours and keep them. That said I wont take on any dog that the owner isn't willing to work and learn as well. Because we all know that dogs and horses revert back to the skill level and expectations of the owner/handler/rider.

 

[Barbara!]

I think it is important for the dog and for the owner for both to be involved. So that the owner can watch and repeat what the trainer is doing better, and for the dog to feel that "training connection" with their owner as well. I have found that even with my own dogs, if I train them totally by myself, and don't let my boyfriend help some, the they follow me better and are a little off with him, if that makes sense. I feel the owner needs to be involved as well to help that connection.

"In dog training, you train people more often than you train dogs."

 

[Fran101]

and of course we have the dogs who are PERFECTLY trained with their owners. Perfect heel position.

and then the dog walker shows up and they are like SQUIRREL! LUNG!! RUN DOG WALKER RUN!!! LETS GO!! PARTY TIME!!!

 

[Southpaw]

and of course we have the dogs who are PERFECTLY trained with their owners. Perfect heel position.

and then the dog walker shows up and they are like SQUIRREL! LUNG!! RUN DOG WALKER RUN!!! LETS GO!! PARTY TIME!!!

That's my dog!! Hahahah she knows the rules when she is with me but there are no rules when I hand her to someone else lol. I handed her to a coworker once so I could run next door and buy dinner, and when I got back like 2 minutes later, Juno was pretty much walking her around the store LOL. And then she REALLY almost hauled her down when she saw me. But those shenanigans aren't allowed with me and, clearly, other people don't do anything about it.

 

[adojrts]

I think it is important for the dog and for the owner for both to be involved. So that the owner can watch and repeat what the trainer is doing better, and for the dog to feel that "training connection" with their owner as well. I have found that even with my own dogs, if I train them totally by myself, and don't let my boyfriend help some, the they follow me better and are a little off with him, if that makes sense. I feel the owner needs to be involved as well to help that connection.

"In dog training, you train people more often than you train dogs."

But that is just it, some people don't have the skill and REALLY struggle with training their dog. Or they have unrealistic expectations of their dog and don't know how to change that. These are not people that are going to purchasing every dog training book they can get their hands on or dedicated to going to classes. It is frustrating to the dog and the owner, therefore they are not getting that connection and it can damage a relationship. And they both end up miserable.
Give both of them some skills and do that hard part for them and they can keep it up.
I know all kinds of brillant riders out there that can compete to the highest levels, just don't ask them to start babies or train those horses in the beginning. They have no patience, can't understand nor care why the horse doesn't do what they want them to do. Put frankly they can't train the foundations or if they do, don't do it very well. They can't train, a, b, c to m, but after that watch them be rockstars and get the most out of that horse. They're happy, the horse is happy.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Yup, I'm sorry others have had trouble transferring training but I've now been doing this 2 years and while I do have some clients who have trouble for a while transferring skills at first I have more that do not. Mostly I train dogs that owners are either too busy to train or unable to turn off their emotional cues for behavioral issues. For the first half we still encourage classes but most buy and never show up.

However, Coco, my Aussie client, is now running 12 weaves, 2o2o reliably, and full courses through distractions. Her owner was at my facility yesterday raving to a friend how she does literally nothing at home and we've changed the monster of a dog it started as. Given, that's not ideal (to do nothing) but it happens and in cases as such they're better off with people like us.

Philly, my lab client, recently passed his CGC with us and he basically lives with his owners personal assistant because she's such a busy lawyer you sometimes wonder why she has a dog but I guarantee he's a happy boy none the less.

Leo, my Great Dane client, was extremely dog and human reactive, he broke his owners tooth pulling her down on a walk so she stopped walking him out of (valid) fear. He just passed his TDI. During this training they did do homework but because the husband was battling a brain tumor the dogs and their training took the back seat.

Abby, my reactive pit bull, needed to show her owner she could take the edge off for her owner to stop holding her breath and clenching her jaw when they saw dogs.

Frado, my pit bull, needed someone more expert at evaluating play styles. Some people would never have given him the chance but a trainer at my work did, carefully, and he's the best playmate we have.

Fancy, my Dutch/ABD, needed structure with an experienced handler and her owner had no time. Luckily her owner caught it quickly and brought her to us, the young biter (of humans and dogs)is now stable enough to take through a group class (when mom can find time).

I could go on but you get the point. Our service offers a variety of options and has presented a ton of success.

 

[release the hounds]

as always, there are a thousand ways for people to have healthy and happy relationships with their dogs and trainers.

For myself, the fun of a dog is having the dog. I like training them. I'm better at some things than others, but I like it all. Sometimes I'd like to just let someone else do all my tracking for me, I hate it. have never enjoyed it, but some people do. But then I can't stand to be without my dogs while i'm at work let alone for a few weeks or months at a time.

I've probably come across about every scenerio imaginable on how people have had their dogs trained. Some have others do it, because they really don't have any desire to. They want a title so they can breed and make money. Some have others do it, because as much as they love their dogs, they suck at training and have a limitation they won't get past whether it's mental or physical. Others don't have access to the decoys and equipment so they train some and then have someone else finish.

and then I see people in a **** wheelchair doing their own training and titling and I realize I don't have an excuse in the world that is valid to not be doing more for my dogs