Opening a can of worms, sorry

[Miakoda]

All i can see in my head is the two fighting pitbulls that were brought into the animal hospital when I was a child. Sitting there looking at their torn and bloody flesh gave me nightmares for weeks. Don't dogs have to be encouraged early on to fight like that? I don't pretend to know about what it takes. I coudln't do that to my dog. When they hurt I hurt right along with them. I don't see any sport in what I saw in that clinic and as I read this thread I see in my head those awful videos that were posted on here with the same torn flesh. To harm an animal like that imo is not right. Not today, not yesterday and heaven forbid not tomorrow.

To answer that simply: NOPE.

I have never matched my APBTs. I never got them with the intention to do so nor would I ever do so. (so for anyone else looking to report me for things I do not do...........)

But I have had my share of yard fights thanks to some "oopsies" on my part (i.e. like forgetting one dog was already running loose in the yard and stupid me chunked another one back there before remembering a dog was already there then having to bolt out the door like a wild woman on 'roids) and thanks to some bullsnaps breaking on me (thank you bulldog supply company for those). I've had a couple of fights that just spontaneously broke out between two dogs that had gotten along fine up until that point thus they were allowed some playtime while we hung out in the back yard.

But the difference lies within the breed. It was bred for fighting. It was bred to want to fight. It was bred to be the best at fighting. My Rottie was involved in a scrap and she merely wanted to stake claim to some imaginary object and get the threat out of her space. My APBTs fought because, oh what the hell, let's just do it. Tails wagging like their were getting a belly rub or playing fetch.

I'm currently down to 2 dogs, Coco and Tar Baby. They sleep in wire kennels right next to each other (with a sheet that separates half of the length of kennel). They eat at the same time in those kennels. They relax back to back in those kennels and chew on their bison knuckle bones. But as soon as those kennel doors open, they want to fight each other. That's their form of playtime. You can see it in their eyes and in their body posture, and Tar Baby is a very vocal dog. He whines like crazy to get to Coco if they are out of their kennels. Obviously, these 2 dogs do not get "play time". They are only out loose one at a time and are either kenneled indoors or on chains outside. And I wouldn't call Coco DA. She can easily ignore other dogs on walks and rarely looks in their direction....if they are at a distance. If a dog is close within reach, she wants it and she will eye such animal with a wagging tail just hoping it comes closer. Tar Baby just acts like a fool and whines and pulls at the leash if the dog is too close to us. But like Coco, dogs at a distance are easily ignorable.

To sum up my rambling, as the person who has had to break up these dog fights with my own dogs, as much as I did NOT enjoy them, from the looks of things it seemed they sure had a great time. (ask my mom and grandma....they broke up a 3-dog fight between 2 APBTs and a Shar Pei/Cane Corso when they were house-sitting for me once while I was in St. Louis and made the mistake of not shutting a back door properly)

 

[sparks19]

yeah I don't understand people who go out and hunt and then just leave the meat to rot and then stick the head on the wall. that just doesn't make sense to me.

yes Brian hunts because he enjoys it. You have to enjoy it to get up at the buttcrack of dawn to go sit in a tree or wherever.

When an animal is harvested it is gutted in the field. the organs are left in the field and MANY animals enjoy this easy meal. Most often you will go back the next day and there isn't a trace of what was left behind. The rest is taken to a butcher who then cuts up the edible cuts of meat and turns the rest into ground meat.

Ted Nugent is a BIG time hunter. He tries to hunt his limit in just about every state he can. he couldn't possibly eat all that meat himself though... so he donates it to missions and soup kitchens and food pantries. So that people who can't afford food can get a good meal from the animals he has harvested. there are MANY hunters who do the same. They will hunt their limit and will keep enough to feed themselves and give the rest to people who really need the food

 

[Tahla9999]

Gameness doesn't stem from harming an animal. If that were the case, these dogmen would've just stabbed their dogs repeatedly and just watched to see how many stabbings it took until the dog just refused to get back up (or whatever). That sure would've saved them all the time and hassle of putting dogs into 8-12 week long keeps (workout/conditioning regimens) and worrying all about their nutrition and making sure they get the dog in the very most tip-top shape at just the right time in order to put the best dog into the match. Who woulda thought that all that hard work and effort was needless because all they had to do was harm the dog themselves?

Harming the dog themselves wouldn't have been as fun.
People don't put these dogs in the pit to play tea party. Why else would you think the most memorable and admirable fights happen to be the most gruesome.

 

[Zoom]

I don't think there was any admiration in those gruesome fights. Or there might have been. It's the nature of some people. Those same people are probably the same ones who slow down the most at accidents, trying to get pictures of the carnage.

Some people cannot be held up as the standard for all people though. If this were the case, then this entire planet needs to be euthanized for the acts of a few.

 

[Renee750il]

Harming the dog themselves wouldn't have been as fun.
People don't put these dogs in the pit to play tea party. Why else would you think the most memorable and admirable fights happen to be the most gruesome.

Tahla, you're comparing apples and, well, manure.

What you've witnessed and what you describe is pure thuggery, Michael Vick style, not at all what Pops described or what Miakoda, Breeze, or I have listened to talking to the old guys. The ones we've met would be the first in line to get their hands on the kind of people you've described, if given the chance.

Yes, I am GLAD that matching does not have a place in modern times, but I think it's positively obscene, the amount of energy that's wasted on condemning the past and allowing it to be warped to suit the purposes of propaganda machines like HSUS rather than honestly addressing the criminal activities and true obscenity of the Michael Vicks that are out there now.

The past is just that. Past. Learn from it, reap the benefits from it and move on to make the present -- and future -- better.

 

[Tahla9999]

Tahla, you're comparing apples and, well, manure.

What you've witnessed and what you describe is pure thuggery, Michael Vick style, not at all what Pops described or what Miakoda, Breeze, or I have listened to talking to the old guys. The ones we've met would be the first in line to get their hands on the kind of people you've described, if given the chance.

Yes, I am GLAD that matching does not have a place in modern times, but I think it's positively obscene, the amount of energy that's wasted on condemning the past and allowing it to be warped to suit the purposes of propaganda machines like HSUS rather than honestly addressing the criminal activities and true obscenity of the Michael Vicks that are out there now.

The past is just that. Past. Learn from it, reap the benefits from it and move on to make the present -- and future -- better.

Well, this did become a dog fighting discussion. We can discuss it, and I did ask Miakoda a simple question. She said dogmen did not intentionally harm their dogs, and I asked what she meant by it. Discussions like these change and shape opinions, you have to ask these questions.

And yes, dog matching in the past is different from dog fighting in present.

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

Someone told me you can buy scrambled egg mix in a carton in the US???

Is this true????

And if it is OMG WHY?

Yup you can. I actually remember getting them at school when we had breakfast for lunch.

Why?

They are cheaper I *think*. Lol I honestly don't know I have no desire to buy them lol.

It tastes like the eggs at McDonalds on the Mcmuffins. Not really good at all lol.

 

[Renee750il]

Well, this did become a dog fighting discussion. We can discuss it, and I did ask Miakoda a simple question. She said dogmen did not intentionally harm their dogs, and I asked what she meant by it. Discussions like these change and shape opinions, you have to ask these questions.

And yes, dog matching in the past is different from dog fighting in present.

I never intimated that it shouldn't be discussed -- stop and think; if that was my decision all I'd have had to do would have been to lock or delete this thread. I have a long history of NOT doing so, even when the subjects are distasteful, at least until it turns to vitriol. It should be discussed and hopefully people will LEARN and in the process, learn to differentiate between past and present.

 

[Tahla9999]

I never intimated that it shouldn't be discussed -- stop and think; if that was my decision all I'd have had to do would have been to lock or delete this thread. I have a long history of NOT doing so, even when the subjects are distasteful, at least until it turns to vitriol. It should be discussed and hopefully people will LEARN and in the process, learn to differentiate between past and present.

Yes, and I wish you would stop bring up HSUS. Never ever read anything from them nor do I care to. Yes, the past and present(gangsta) are different. Never said they were the same. I agree, the past was the past, times were different, people had different point of views.

Someone told me you can buy scrambled egg mix in a carton in the US???

Is this true????

And if it is OMG WHY?

Because we are Americans and cracking eggs can be too much of an ordeal.

 

[corgipower]

Because were Americans and cracking eggs can be too much of an ordeal.

:rofl1:

 

[Renee750il]

Yes, and I wish you would stop bring up HSUS. Never ever read anything from them nor do I care to. Yes, the past and present(gangsta) are different. Never said they were the same. I agree, the past was the past, times were different, people had different point of views.

You may never have read any of their propaganda, but a lot of what you've said is what they spread. It's pervasive and they are very, very good at propagandizing their agenda. Even my vet -- who adores APBTs -- had their materials up in his office, not realizing what they were really about. He's taken them down, now, though.

 

[Dani]

Do you have firsthand knowledge of this? Have you spoken to and ASKED those oldtimes exactly what they thought?

You are putting words into their mouths, feelings into their hearts, and thoughts into their brains that suit and back up your own feelings on a subject. You can't just do that. Unless you have spoken to and/or experienced all this or spoken to these men and women, then you don't really know, do you?

On the other hand, I currently own an older dog from a "ruthless" and "uncaring" and "prideful" dogman who created one of the best APBT lines out there. In fact, he was so full of disdain for his lowly dogs, that when a young bitch got sick, he brought her in and monitored her, then rushed her to a local vet when we recognized the symptoms of pyometra. He even went as far as to cruelly have her spayed and then kept her as a solely indoor "pet bull" (despite all those vicious Ch. and Gr. Ch. pit dogs she was bred down from). At to my utmost horror, he gave me that abused dog as she, in his own words, "needed some young 'uns to play with and keep her busy". Thus Coco has been living at my house for many years now and I didn't even have to pay a dime for one of the best pedigreed dogs I've ever owned. Oh the horror..............

And MY ego has nothing to do with any of this. I love my dogs for what they are, not for what they can do for me or for the recognition they bring to me.

In terms of pride, I take pride in the breed and pride in the dogs. I don't take pride in myself for owning them. I guess us APBT owners are just all supposed to be bleeding-hearts that want them all spayed and neutered and eventually eradicated so they can no longer be abused at the hands of the vicious people that own them? Sounds awfully familiar to me...................

And before someone throws out "well, weight pulling is a good sport....blah blah blah", it is nothing to the breed but a good hobby to do with your dog. ANY breed and mix of breed can participate in weight pull and many can outpull the APBT. So it's laughable and someone sad that many now consider such an activity to be a basis/standard for breeding a working dog.

(Is it bad etiquette to reply to something from more than 10 pages back? It's not something I normally do, but I'm gonna go for it.)

I'm one of the last people to claim to have someone figured out. I never said they didn't love their dogs. Maybe what they had was a love I don't understand, because I can't wrap my head around conditioning and pushing someone I love to senseless violence.

I'm very much tired of the wussification of dogs and I think coddling is depressing: dogs should have a sense of purpose, and working them is a great outlet. One of the major issues I have with dog fighting is the only goal is to inflict and take pain for no good reason. I know the dogs themselves don't understand this, but we do, and I find it highly irresponsible to allow it.

I won't say the men knowingly did what they knew was wrong, because I'm not out to question their love for their dogs. What I will say is that it is hard to believe that there was no selfishness behind their actions. It's true that many risky activities we involve our dogs in are self-serving (we humans are righteous d-bags). But dog fighting is the only one where we encourage our dogs to submit themselves to guaranteed injury and potential trauma for absolutely nothing, and I find that more than a bit troubling.

 

[Miakoda]

I won't deny that selfishness probably came into play, but that's because it still does for all of us and the dogs we own.

We own them because we WANT them. We want to have them. We want to own them. We want them to do what we want them to do (obedience training anyone?). All that boils down to selfishness.

If we lose that selfishness, we can join PETA and just quit owning dogs and allow the domestic canine die off naturally (and unnaturally as they get hit by cars, shot, tortured to death, starved, etc.). Then we could at least say we aren't selfish anymore.

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

I stepped away from this. Reread everything. Did some more research and.............I still think the old time dog fighters were sad excuses for human beings. I guess I will never see as something to respect.

 

[Boemy]

Frankly, I think it's ridiculous to idolize the "good old days dogmen." Sure, they thought what they were doing was right. In their own way, they probably did love their dogs. I read an article where a puppy miller's barn burnt down and they were regretting that they wouldn't see the "sweet little faces" of the yorkies they kept in cages their entire lives. The puppy miller probably genuinely loved his dogs, too . . in his way. There are a lot of sick, twisted kinds of love.

Dog fighting was born out of bear-baiting. When bear-baiting was banned in England in the 1800s, people switched to dogs, since their fights were easier to conceal. Were the bears being tested and honed to produce The Perfect Family Bear? Or were a lot of people simply fond of gawking at an exciting but cruel spectacle?

Yeah, pretty much the latter.

 

[Pops2]

let it go, this horse ain't friggin lazarus

 

[SweetAdeline]

I stepped away from this. Reread everything. Did some more research and.............I still think the old time dog fighters were sad excuses for human beings. I guess I will never see as something to respect.

^^^this.

And growing up in Louisiana, where dogfighting was a legal sport for a long time (and cockfighting, don't forget that sport of kings) I've known a lot of dogmen. I find nothing noble about them.

 

[AGonzalez]

let it go, this horse ain't friggin lazarus

We have a winner! :hail:

 

[Fran101]

I was wondering why nobody ever did organized cat fights lol then I remembered you can't get cats to do **** they don't feel like doing

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

let it go, this horse ain't friggin lazarus

I think if members still have feelings and valid comments to make they should go right ahead. Yeah the thread has been dead for a couple weeks. But that doesent mean that the late comments are any less valid.

I think everyone should get their say on the matter. Late or not.