One Method Training

[Doberluv]

very few lions or tigers are trained to do very few things, and they use a fair bit of "learned" helplessness" to get them to be so passive as well. Don't act like they all click to treat and all is happy and smiles. Sorry, it ain't reality.

the next therapy tiger, or SAR tiger, or Police Tiger they train, or one that does anything other than move cages, lay down to have blood drawn, or stand on its hind legs, let me know. Sorry, just cause a chicken can be taught to turn in a cirlce doesn't some how make it the best and only way.

The fact that they can do what they DO do with these wild animals ought to amaze even the smuggest of the smug. No, it was not learned helplessness.


http://www.bigcatrescue.org/2005annualreport.htm

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/124

http://www.newyorktails.com/clicker.htm

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1516865

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Primates/Enrichment/Training/default.cfm

http://www.clickandtreat.com/webart13.htm

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/116

 

[ToscasMom]

I think I'll check back when this argument reaches 15 pages. lol.

To quote the Pointed Man in the Land of Point:"You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear. You dig?".

 

[dr2little]

Ok I'll give it a shot. It's a miracle!

HALLALOUYA!!! THANK YOU TOSCA:hail: :hail: OOPS.....sorry for the shouting. I get EXCITED when I hear of miracles

 

[IliamnasQuest]

This has been asked too many times to count but I'll try one more time.

If in fact the shock collar only gives a low level stimulation and you (anyone who has used one) have NEVER used anything higher than a low level stimulation....what is making the dog respond when NOTHING else worked?

Evidently you don't pay a lot of attention to posts, because this HAS been answered prior to this.

I can spell out the entire process of training for you, if you'd like, or you can go back to the previous time when I did so. A person who understands the concepts of operant conditioning will recognize the use of negative reinforcement. The dog is taught (first by keeping them on a leash) to stop the stimulation by reacting in a predictable way. Negative = removing, reinforcement = will increase the likelihood of the behavior happening again.

It could also be viewed as adding a consequence to the behavior. As I've said before, the collar isn't viewed as pleasant. I fully admit that. The dog HAS to want to stop/avoid the sensation for it to be effective. In that manner it could be considered (in some instances) as a positive punishment. If it is a choice between adding a consequence to running off, or keeping my dog confined on a leash the rest of her life so that she can't run and play freely with the other dogs, then yes - I choose a consequence. She's never yelped or cringed (unlike during play when one of the dogs bites her because she's too rough - she yelps and backs down a bit, but continues to roughhouse because it's just SO much fun).

I would love to be able to say that my dog never needed anything but positive reinforcement. As I've stated numerous times, I believe highly in it. I started her at about two months old on recalls. I used a large variety of reinforcements. We played recall games, I praised AS she came toward me, I reinforced with treats and scratches and praise for a good amount of time when she reached me, and we did this until she was 20 months old. I have excellent timing and excellent training skills, as is evidenced by the high level of training I do and the high level of enthusiasm my dogs have. But there comes a time for SOME dogs when - if you're going to get that off-leash reliability - when there has to be more motivation than treats or praise.

No one should run out and buy a shock collar. I researched for MONTHS, thought long and hard about the training I'd done so far, discussed my reasoning with several highly positive trainers (some who will say straight-out that they wouldn't use a shock collar, but they did understand the concept and reasoning), and made a clear, conscious, educated choice to use this device in order to allow my dog some freedom. I don't use it for other training. I don't use it for competition training. Yes, I do use an occasional physical correction in regular training. Nothing to the level of what my dogs do to each other in play. Am I a bad person for using an occasional physical correction? No, I'm not. And no one should insinuate that anyone is bad because they use an occasional "hand's-on" correction on a dog that is tough enough to warrant it.

It's good to recommend positive reinforcement training to people. But it's not good to make it seem like anyone not training the specific way you (generic you) do is bad, wrong, cruel or inhumane. No one can know someone else's situation.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Doberluv]

if you're going to get that off-leash reliability - when there has to be more motivation than treats or praise.

Yes, absolutely definitely.... and there are motivators which are more than treats and praise. There is a systematic process to getting this kind of reliability. After going through the first several stages of conditioning, (too long to type here and very important to the whole process) you get to the point where you convince your dog that YOU control access to the things he likes; squirrels, other dogs, rabbit trails etc. Only by coming to you first, does he have the opportunity and reward of getting to chase the furry things. Direct access to the prey (and for practice..."prey") does NOT work for the dog. It never works. It's all trained in controlled and simulated situations at first....exercises. He is never given the opportunity to be reinforced by running after animals before coming to you. It's done in small areas at first and built up. It is a sort of programming of his brain...it becomes habit because he really thinks that the only way to get what he wants is by coming to you first. It's all explained in Culture Clash. And I don't think it takes as long as it seems when I type it. But it would take some time to be sure.

As far as the Chows in Jean Donaldson's life, apparently, from what I have read, she has titled many dogs and she takes Chows from rescue shelters who are unadoptable and not only rehabilitates them healthwise, but does complete make-overs in behavior modification. I do not know more specifics than that. I know that she is a highly respected animal trainer/behaviorist.

I guess, if it were extremely important to me to have an explicitly well trained dog, and if Chows are that difficult, I wouldn't get a Chow. Some people don't care about extreme obedience and for some, it's quite important. I'm one of those who likes a pretty Johnny on the spot dog. So, I do tend to go for dogs like Dobermans, Labs, Shepherds, Chihuahuas and my son's mix who lives with me is quite "into" learning.

So, it's not that I don't acknowledge that some breeds are more difficult and I applaud you for doing what you do do with your Chows Melanie....really I do. I just think that had you been able to start out from puppyhood and gone through exactly the steps Jean talks about doing with all kinds of dogs, she might be able to run and play. I also admit that any dog, no matter how well trained is subject to a screw up now and then. They ARE animals, after all. And if the shock collar is not causing pain, fear or a bewilderment with a touch of trepidation, then fine. I concede. But I really can't see how they work unless they cause pain or fear..some kind of avoidance. And I just know that there are lots of creative things that can be done. I don't know all the things there are to do. I'm still learning. But I know that a lot of trainers of difficult dogs have a real, honest to goodness aresenal at their disposal. It's not all about treats and praise or a lot of the objections I hear here. And the things that you have said you've done are not all there is. So, even though you're a good trainer and experienced, there is more out there than meets the eye. LOL. And I'm on a mission to find out. Heh, heh, heh.

I am just not into causing my dog pain or unhappiness because I want more than one skill problem to be solved and I totally see how much more smart and willing my dogs are since using positive methods. I firmly believe that the dog MUST enjoy every bit of training to make the most of it and the highest potential for bonding. Plus, my poor thing has liver disease and he may not live even close to a normal life span which isn't very long anyhow. And any dog might turn up with something awful or even die suddenly and I'd feel awful if I had just gotten through doing something yucky to my dog. That is not to say that I never say, "no" to my dogs. But anything more drastic is really hard for me. So, I use motivation and reward with a friendly little NRM and re-direct thrown in.

I guess if it were my dog, I'd find a fenced place, a ball park or dog park or tennis court and let 'er rip. Or get a super duper long line and use a chucket and tennis ball and have her retrieve over and over. Physiologically, lots of mental exercise really tires out a dog too.

 

[jess2416]

We've had this discussion over and over and over, and it never turns into anything productive....

WOW....:yikes: I was right...it hasnt turned into anything productive

 

[Doberluv]

WOW.... I was right...it hasnt turned into anything productive
__________________

I'm sorry you aren't getting anything productive from this. We try. I just got through explaining what I thought were some of the finer points or contributions to teaching a recall when it comes to a prey motivator. I also posted some links with very, very interesting articles about clicker training other animals besides dogs. Other people have written some useful information too. It's too bad that you're not absorbing any of this. Maybe another thread would suit your intellectual needs better. If you're going to post, why not post something more productive than criticizing what others are trying to do here.

 

[jess2416]

I'm sorry you aren't getting anything productive from this. We try. I just got through explaining what I thought were some of the finer points or contributions to teaching a recall when it comes to a prey motivator. I also posted some links with very, very interesting articles about clicker training other animals besides dogs. Other people have written some useful information too. It's too bad that you're not absorbing any of this. Maybe another thread would suit your intellectual needs better. If you're going to post, why not post something more productive than criticizing what others are trying to do here.

I did get something out of the first 5 threads we had like this....its the same people posting the same thing over and over again....

 

[dr2little]

Evidently you don't pay a lot of attention to posts, because this HAS been answered prior to this.

I can spell out the entire process of training for you, if you'd like, or you can go back to the previous time when I did so. A person who understands the concepts of operant conditioning will recognize the use of negative reinforcement. The dog is taught (first by keeping them on a leash) to stop the stimulation by reacting in a predictable way. Negative = removing, reinforcement = will increase the likelihood of the behavior happening again.

Preaching to the chior Melanie...and you can drop your little attempt at condescension
And your answer speaks for itself. Avoidance of a PAINFUL consequence, just like we've been trying to get accross all along while you were calling the shock a low level stimulation....like that felt during a TENS treatment.
Finally, telling it like it is. What ever happened to using it on the lowest levels as you've claimed in earlier posts?

 

[Doberluv]

I did get something out of the first 5 threads we had like this, its the same people posting the same thing over and over again....

So????? I've got a simple solution for ya. Don't keep reading here then. Try another forum or another thread if you don't like this one instead of disrupting the continuity and insulting others who are interested and enjoying it. Why on earth would you waste your time on a thread you aren't enjoying????????????????????????????????????????????????? There are plenty of others.

 

[Doberluv]

We played recall games, I praised AS she came toward me, I reinforced with treats and scratches and praise for a good amount of time when she reached me, and we did this until she was 20 months old

Is that all you did? Elementary my dear Watson. LOL.

 

[dr2little]

WOW....:yikes: I was right...it hasnt turned into anything productive

Jess - I read your other post about participants in this thread being pathetic, I have to say that I was surprised and a bit insulted. While these threads do repeat themselves, they are still valuable and participation is completely voluntary.

I've seen more than a few extremely heated threads that you yourself have been very involved in. They weren't of any interest to me so I stayed out of them. What I didn't do was call anyone who did choose to participate, pathetic.

Not cool..

 

[Rosefern]

Yes, dogs are dogs. People are people. Do all people learn the same? Do they all have the same personalities? No, of course not. Do all dogs learn the same? Do they all have the same personalities? Of course not! Dogs are individuals and to train to the same reliable level of consistency in every dog requires the use of various techniques.

My point exactly. Which is what I meant with the kids in the classroom analogy…it wasn’t meant to be taken literally…

Dogs don't all learn the same. People don't all learn the same. You have to suit the teaching method to the learning method.

Thanks, IQ!

-Rosefern

 

[dr2little]

My point exactly. Which is what I meant with the kids in the classroom analogy…it wasn’t meant to be taken literally…

Dogs don't all learn the same. People don't all learn the same. You have to suit the teaching method to the learning method.

Thanks, IQ!

-Rosefern

Exactly! And that's why to be a good positive trainer, you better have many different ways to treat the same problem. It still doesn't mean that any of them has to involve pain.
Like I've said before, training void of physical aversives certainly does not limit the wide variety of methods. A trainer is only limited by their experience, education and ability to evolve. I'm still learning every single day, the very reason I no longer use anything physical.

 

[daaqa]

Try another forum or another thread if you don't like this one instead of disrupting the continuity and insulting others who are interested and enjoying it. Why on earth would you waste your time on a thread you aren't enjoying????????????????????????????????????????????????? There are plenty of others.

i agree. i haven't been here for nearly as long as some people, and there are many who are way newer than i am. i haven't read a thread dealing with this issue. as i am currently educating myself regarding postive reinforcement training, i find this thread facinating.

anyone not interested in reading this thread should just start a thread about a subject that interests them... or better yet - go spend some time with their dog instead of whining online.

 

[RD]

Hm. I think everyone knows my take on all this. I'm not as experienced as people like Doberluv, Dr2little, Melanie etc, but I have trained my fair share of dogs to a good level of offlead obedience and I don't use physical aversives. My personal dogs are border collies, who basically live and breathe responsiveness, but I have also trained Chows, sighthounds, Pyrenees, Akitas, Basenjis and other "hard to train" breeds without the use of physical punishment. Do I use punishment? Yes, of course. I don't think it's possible to train a dog reliably without some sort of punishment, but I don't use anything more than verbal corrections and NRM. The dogs I've trained have been very reliable. Maybe I've been lucky. Who knows.

That said, I do not take a cookie-cutter approach to every dog I train. If something I try isn't working, I try something else! Not all dogs will respond the same way to the same methods. I don't think inflexibility is a good quality in a trainer. However, I disagree that training without physical punishment is inflexibility and incompetence on the trainer's part.

I do have to say -- Jess, certain things are important to people and they will go out of their way to explain the same thing, over and over, because they care. If you don't care, then why are you getting involved? What's it to you if people who do care about the subject at hand want to discuss it?

It's your choice to talk about how pathetic it is, but honestly I'm a little hurt too that you'd jump in to contribute nothing but an eye roll and a sarcastic comment. I think the "nobody loves me" thread is absolutely ridiculous but I keep my comments and eye rolls to myself because people are getting something out of it. This isn't hurting you, just let it be . . .

 

[jess2416]

Whatever, its already been dealt with..........

 

[RD]

Yeah, whatever. Because the only person who can make smart-ass, negative comments about every little thing is you. The rest of us get "whatever".

So, yeah.. Whatever.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Preaching to the chior Melanie...and you can drop your little attempt at condescension
And your answer speaks for itself. Avoidance of a PAINFUL consequence, just like we've been trying to get accross all along while you were calling the shock a low level stimulation....like that felt during a TENS treatment.
Finally, telling it like it is. What ever happened to using it on the lowest levels as you've claimed in earlier posts?

*LOL* .. you speak of MY condenscension, when you start off by basically saying no one has answered the question - implying that no one is willing to? And every time you post in bold you are the epitome of condenscension. Take a look at your OWN posts sometimes, 2little .. the reason people get upset with you is because you act like anyone not training with YOUR method is bad. In fact in the post above you - sanctimoniously - accuse me of lying.

Evidently you still don't understand the concept. Yes, it IS a low level stimulation. Geez, how many times do I have to explain it?? You are supposed to be a student of behaviorism .. theoretically you understand the concepts of operant conditioning .. but post after post you show your ignorance - glaringly!! Would you like me to once again explain in detail how I find the lowest level of stimulation and how I - very successfully, I might add - use the collar to be able to have my dog off-leash? Or would I once again get accused of single-handedly making people run out and buy shock collars?

I have said in previous posts that some levels of the shock collar feel like a TENS unit, yes. And they do! Some dogs work well at that level. Some would WANT to avoid that level, even though humans use it on themselves willingly. Some dogs need more to even elicit a flick of an ear. Some dogs work to avoid a simple "no", some dogs don't. Surely you, with your VAST experience .. .. can understand that NOT ALL DOGS ARE THE SAME.

"PAINFUL CONSEQUENCE" is subjective. ANY consequence that a dog wants to avoid is based on avoidance to a certain degree. If you say "no" to a soft dog and it immediately stops, it's doing it because it wants to AVOID that correction. It's not doing it because "no" is a pleasant thing. I don't use a shock collar at a level intended to create a yelp or cringe or anything that shows a pain reaction - how many times do I have to say that? Geez .. people who claim to be successful trainers and are supposed to understand dog behavior and yet cannot grasp a simple concept just drive me crazy.

YOU cannot claim, honestly, that all dogs you work with using just positive reinforcement are trained successfully off-leash, because it does not happen that way. It all boils down to that. Yes, I'm sure you get a number of great behaviors from the dogs you work with. So do I, without using corrections. But there are levels that are important to some dogs and to some people. In your life maybe it's fine that the dogs you work with are kept confined or on-leash ALL the time. There's a real world out there, however. I look at dogs confined behind fences and then I watch my girl race gleefully through the woods, leaping logs and jumping on Trick and having a fantastic time, and I know that my dog is enjoying life MORE than these poor dogs that never get the freedom to run and play like that. She may wear the collar when she's out, but the need to use it is rare anymore.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[StunnedMonkey]

I did get something out of the first 5 threads we had like this....its the same people posting the same thing over and over again....

I'm new here, but some of this stuff reminds me of the "breast vs bottle" debates in the parenting forums I used to read when my kids were born. Of course, those folks really were nuts.