koehler method of dog training
- Thread starter blackcat
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All i know is +R didn't work on sly and it didn't work on any of the other dogs in my training classes who's dogs were very aggressive. Some had been through as many as 8 different trainers with them all saying the same thing... put the dog down. Most were kicked out of training classes because their dogs were too aggressive. they were pushed out out of the training group.
luckily they didn't follow the advice of these trainers. These dogs are now well behaved dogs that can heel around 20+ dogs in very distracting and stressful situations.
so You do what you want with your dogs. all you want to do is nothing, but fight. you all have your opinions and i have mine. with that said i have homework that i must get done.Bye
Thanks MC.
luckily they didn't follow the advice of these trainers. These dogs are now well behaved dogs that can heel around 20+ dogs in very distracting and stressful situations.
so You do what you want with your dogs. all you want to do is nothing, but fight. you all have your opinions and i have mine. with that said i have homework that i must get done.Bye
Thanks MC.
Purdue, have you ever thought for a moment that your expereince with positive reinforcement may have been instructed by a poor teacher. I honestly ask you, can you provide me with some peer reviewed scientific studies that offer solid information that my opinions are wrong? I think I can turn blue in the face asking for this info, and all of you aversive technique worshippers will continue to jump around this one simple question. The only thing that I am happy to see when there are threads like this is that there are alot of positive reinforcers and those who truely want to get to the root of the problem with their dog. That is a great thing! I am sorry that you who support these 'old school' techniques aren't open enough to truely research our 'soft' methods. And before you jump on the wagon screaming that the research has been done, where has that research been done???
Do you have a link or something to back this claim up and can I ask which shelters you are involved with? Do you question the owners when they are giving the dogs regarding what training methods they have used?
It must be very different in the US as in fact in the UK the majority of dogs in rescue do not have issues.
I also confused if the trainer has told them to put the dog down and they have, how do they end up in a shelter?
It must be very different in the US as in fact in the UK the majority of dogs in rescue do not have issues.
I also confused if the trainer has told them to put the dog down and they have, how do they end up in a shelter?
You know they used to train horses by putting tying cats to poles and then upending them under the horse's bellies, to scratch the h3ll out of the poor horse. The horse would often kick the cat and kill it. But at the time that was considered an approved way to punish a horse. People learn, we progress. The cat method may have worked? But at what cost?
Purdue-There are 1000's of dogs rehabbed by postitive training. Your posts on positive training, show that your trainer sucked at it. Positive does not mean permissive, positive does not mean no consequences. I used negative punishment. And there are consequences my dogs don't like if they don't perform. But I never use positive punishment, as it has been linked to many behavioural problems. Now if you ignore those problems as they manifest, then it does appear that positive punishment works. But when it works, it always works at a cost.
Purdue-There are 1000's of dogs rehabbed by postitive training. Your posts on positive training, show that your trainer sucked at it. Positive does not mean permissive, positive does not mean no consequences. I used negative punishment. And there are consequences my dogs don't like if they don't perform. But I never use positive punishment, as it has been linked to many behavioural problems. Now if you ignore those problems as they manifest, then it does appear that positive punishment works. But when it works, it always works at a cost.
Would love to see the actual statistic here *eyeroll*. I've seen statistics claiming that only 5-10% of pet dogs in this country actually receieve ANY formal training of any kind. So unless every single one of these dogs winds up in a shelter, I'd say you're pulling numbers out of your backside. My own experience with volunteering in animal shelters is that most of the dogs there don't have serious issues, they simply lack any kind of obedience training or manners whatsoever. No one ever taught them, in any way, how to behave. The typical scenario goes like this: dog is brought home as a puppy, and puppies are very cute, and small and clingy and so no one ever thinks to actually train the dog--he's so adorable and easy to control. Then, 9 months later, the puppy has turned in to an adolescent dog, often much larger, and now a lot harder to control and less cute, and it still has no manners or training. It is not a coincidence that the majority of dogs in shelters are 9-24 months old. That's when dogs hit adolescence, get difficult, and are also bigger and less cute. The cute puppy's lack of training is not so cute in an adult. The dog gets dumped at a shelter because it's easier to do that than to actually take a class, read a book, and do some training. The end.
Koehler and his so called "method" is a ridiculous and abusive way to handle a dog. Ridiculous because it is not based on anything which has anything to do with training....it's just flat out abuse. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with how dogs think and learn, their nature...nothing. Ridiculous!
Positive reinforcement....operant/classical conditioning, the science of learning behavior, devoid of harsh aversives is PROVEN to work on all mammals with a brain stem. If someone says "it" doesn't work, that's not "it" which doesn't work. That's the trainer that is defective. There is NO debate. You can argue about matters of opinion all you want. But arguing about facts is ridiculous. Arguing with ignorant people, giving them the time of day is also ridiculous. That's all I have to say.
Positive reinforcement....operant/classical conditioning, the science of learning behavior, devoid of harsh aversives is PROVEN to work on all mammals with a brain stem. If someone says "it" doesn't work, that's not "it" which doesn't work. That's the trainer that is defective. There is NO debate. You can argue about matters of opinion all you want. But arguing about facts is ridiculous. Arguing with ignorant people, giving them the time of day is also ridiculous. That's all I have to say.
I was able to train my dog out of her dog-aggressive issues without the use of harsh aversives. We've certainly come a long way since Koehler... wasn't that like 40-50 years ago?! We've landed on the moon now, we have portable personal computers, we've cloned things, and we've learned a heck of a lot more about dog behavior.
I really wanted to stay out of this, but I feel that I need to make a comment. I use positve methods with my dog, and I firmly believe that positive methods can work in almost every situation . . . perhaps in every situation, with a knowledgable and talented trainer. But I can understand fully why some people are turned off to these methods. One, they can be difficult to understand starting out, particularly the aspect of timing. Two, there are crappy positive training method books out there. The first book that I bought, in my ignorance, was such a book (I won't name names here). Although it provides a perfectly good outline for positive training, it doesn't tell you what you are supposed to do if the instructions in the book don't work. It also doesn't tell you what to do if things go terribly wrong. It does tell you, at great length, never to yell at your dog, jerk its collar, or even say 'no' or dire, dire consequences can occur.
Now, to the point. I had been very careful not to give my dog a chance to chase the cats, but she had been fairly polite to them during the first week. So I decided to walk her off leash from the back door to the staircase and up to her crate. When we came in the door, there was kitty. Kitty gave dog a wary look. Dog play bowed. Kitty, not wanting to play with soemthing several times his size, takes off at a run. Dog, thinking kitty is proposing a rousing game of chase, pursues him.
Ack, there's nothing about this in the book! But I know for sure I don't want Sarama to learn that chasing cats is fun. I'm really, really sure I don't want her to catch that cat. So, falling back on years of watching my parents teach the dogs manners in the old way, I shout 'No!' followed by a growlly 'Leave that cat alone' and leap forward, seized her collar and shoved her ( pulling against my hand and barking) back out the rear door into the backyard. Cat peers out from behind the couch. Peace reigns.
I felt guilty . . . had I harmed my dog? Then I looked at another book. This is a highly respected book on positve training . . and it drew the distinction between training and management. What I'd done was crisis management. I'd prevented kitty from getting hurt and prevented Sarama from having a roaring good time chasing him. I hadn't TRAINED the dog. She didn't know what she was supposed to do instead. I'd undoubtably made a withdrawal from my relationship bank. But the immediate crisis was solved, and now that I knew that she would chase cats IF they ran. I could now make plans to use positive methods to train her not to. (Its five weeks later, and though I can't say I'd trust her not to chase the cats if really given the chance, a soft 'uh-uh' and calling her to me will keep her away from them in my presence.)
My point? Not that positive methods don't work, or they aren't the best way to train a dog, but that there is a lot of material out there that isn't very helpful, especially to someone trying the methods for the first time. There's a lot of theory, which is necessary to understand what you are doing, but not enough real world practical advice. What do you do if the dog is chasing the cat? If its about to jump on your 93 year old gradmother? If its actually leaping into a fight with another dog? If your dog has appearently had a psychotic episode and has trapped you in the closet? (other than the first, I hve not had these problems, thank god). Sometimes you do what you have to do to prevent disaster. That's common sense. (Note, I did not hit her to make her stop . . I startled her, made my displeasure known, and removed her from the cat's presence)
So I can understand how people who do not have a great deal of respect for science (which was one of the principal things that convinced me this was the right method) or who are very frustrated, would fall back on another method that is known to work. It might not work the way we like, it might be fraught with potential disaster, but it does work, and worked fairly well for years before positive methods were wide spread. If nothing else, such methods are easier to get instant results with, which, unfortunately, is more valuable than their relationship with thier dog. The best thing we can do is recommend good books on positive training . .. and remind people that crisis management isnt' training, but its better than letting something bad happen which will turn people off to positive methods altogether.
/ducks the flames
Now, to the point. I had been very careful not to give my dog a chance to chase the cats, but she had been fairly polite to them during the first week. So I decided to walk her off leash from the back door to the staircase and up to her crate. When we came in the door, there was kitty. Kitty gave dog a wary look. Dog play bowed. Kitty, not wanting to play with soemthing several times his size, takes off at a run. Dog, thinking kitty is proposing a rousing game of chase, pursues him.
Ack, there's nothing about this in the book! But I know for sure I don't want Sarama to learn that chasing cats is fun. I'm really, really sure I don't want her to catch that cat. So, falling back on years of watching my parents teach the dogs manners in the old way, I shout 'No!' followed by a growlly 'Leave that cat alone' and leap forward, seized her collar and shoved her ( pulling against my hand and barking) back out the rear door into the backyard. Cat peers out from behind the couch. Peace reigns.
I felt guilty . . . had I harmed my dog? Then I looked at another book. This is a highly respected book on positve training . . and it drew the distinction between training and management. What I'd done was crisis management. I'd prevented kitty from getting hurt and prevented Sarama from having a roaring good time chasing him. I hadn't TRAINED the dog. She didn't know what she was supposed to do instead. I'd undoubtably made a withdrawal from my relationship bank. But the immediate crisis was solved, and now that I knew that she would chase cats IF they ran. I could now make plans to use positive methods to train her not to. (Its five weeks later, and though I can't say I'd trust her not to chase the cats if really given the chance, a soft 'uh-uh' and calling her to me will keep her away from them in my presence.)
My point? Not that positive methods don't work, or they aren't the best way to train a dog, but that there is a lot of material out there that isn't very helpful, especially to someone trying the methods for the first time. There's a lot of theory, which is necessary to understand what you are doing, but not enough real world practical advice. What do you do if the dog is chasing the cat? If its about to jump on your 93 year old gradmother? If its actually leaping into a fight with another dog? If your dog has appearently had a psychotic episode and has trapped you in the closet? (other than the first, I hve not had these problems, thank god). Sometimes you do what you have to do to prevent disaster. That's common sense. (Note, I did not hit her to make her stop . . I startled her, made my displeasure known, and removed her from the cat's presence)
So I can understand how people who do not have a great deal of respect for science (which was one of the principal things that convinced me this was the right method) or who are very frustrated, would fall back on another method that is known to work. It might not work the way we like, it might be fraught with potential disaster, but it does work, and worked fairly well for years before positive methods were wide spread. If nothing else, such methods are easier to get instant results with, which, unfortunately, is more valuable than their relationship with thier dog. The best thing we can do is recommend good books on positive training . .. and remind people that crisis management isnt' training, but its better than letting something bad happen which will turn people off to positive methods altogether.
/ducks the flames
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