koehler method of dog training

blackcat

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#1
Okay I seen today that the city's park and rec distric is offering a dog obediance class. They state that they use the Koehler method. Can someone discribe this for me. I know on one episode of mythbusters they did the teach an old dog new tricks myth and they used two methods of dog training, unfortunatly I fell asleep and couldn't finish watching it. Was this Koehler method of the methods.
 

Maxy24

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#2
I don't like it, that's for sure. He's the guy that half drowns dogs for digging holes I believe (OK sorry, makes the dog think he's drowning, the head still gets shoved under the water). It uses fear to scare dogs away from behaviors, it uses pain, and they are very outdated methods.
 
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Purdue#1

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adojrts

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#4
That method has been deemed abusive by most knowledgable trainers these days. The methods are very outdated and not used much anymore. Although some (sadly) still use them.
As for him being the trainer for Disney all those years ago, I would expect with the laws and the Humane Society involved in the film industry today, those methods would not be allowed.
When he was training those methods 30-50 years ago it was also common for Sterilizations to be done on Mentally Challenged people, Lobotomies were common as well, doesn't make them right and we have learned not to do that, same with Koehlers methods.
 

houndlove

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#5
Any more, most "animal stars" of movies and TV are clicker trained.

Kohler method uses a lot of physical punishment of the dog and behavioral assumptions about dogs that we now know were mistaken.
 

Cheetah

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#6
The Koehler method is outdated and abusive. Find a class that teaches positive methods - Koehler is definitely not it.
 

DoggyDaze

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#7
OK, I'm new to the whole dog training thing. But, can a case be made for some dogs that don't respond to positive methods?

My dog just wants to please me, she is very easy to deal with and train. But I do encounter dogs that make me wonder how in the heck the handler deals with them.

Do some dogs just need harsher methods??
 
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VWilson

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#8
Okay I seen today that the city's park and rec distric is offering a dog obediance class. They state that they use the Koehler method. Can someone discribe this for me. I know on one episode of mythbusters they did the teach an old dog new tricks myth and they used two methods of dog training, unfortunatly I fell asleep and couldn't finish watching it. Was this Koehler method of the methods.
It is an excellent method, and the biggest detractors know little, and understand even less about it, and likely have never read his books, and are merely going from what they hear.
Read the book, and then make your own decision.
The book is very enlightening.

Strict unyeilding dogmatic, and intolerant adhearence to any specific style of training is wrong, as all dogs are different, and we should not limit our options for dealing with problems that may be beyond our preferred styles.

While I do not prefer food based training, I believe it does have a place with food motivated dogs early in training.

The actual Koehler method only uses as much as is needed, and some dogs will respond to the positive reinforcement in the training, and the early training phase is exactly the same as all positive training, without the treats, which puts a lot of focus on positive reinforcement, such as praise, and positive attention.
Indeed the all positive approach could be considered "Koehler Lite"

At some point in any individual dogs training, some correction may be needed, and it will vary depending upon the indiviual dog. For many dogs a strong voice will be enough, for others, a leash pop to bring back their focus will work.
Some dogs seem to come almost plug, and play, and those few dogs, get nothing but kind words, and hugs

No matter the method used, treat, all positive, or Koehler some dogs will resist, to varying degrees, any efforts to train, control, or give them balance, and a small percentage will violently, and viciously resist training.

For such racalcitrant dogs, the Koehler method offers a lengthened continuum that addresses such needs.

Each dog is different and each dog requires individualized training, specific to its temperment, and drive. Koehler addresses those individual needs.

Proper use of the method cures, and repairs aggression issues with dogs in a swift fashion, whereas other methods may take a management approach rather than a cure. Why manage what you can cure. Management is only for incurable issues. Owners refusing to implement a cure is not a reason for management of the issue, just an excuse

Some methods may take a longer term approach, in an attempt to cure, but why take years to do what can be done in weeks, or even a single session??

Detractors point to abuse cases, and that has nothing to do with the results of the proper use of the methods, and techniques.
Abuse, Improper, or ill informed use of any method, tool, or technique tends to result in problems, so the argument does not actually pertain to the Koehler method.

People who drive recklessly cause accidents, while those who drive properly have no problems other than those caused by reckless drivers

I hear the remarks about old, and outdated, but I do not see any other method that works with such reliable results, to create a well behaved, and balanced dog, especially with dogs that resist training, and serious behavioral issues.
Dogs, and how they think, and react to training have not changed since the book was written. So there is no way the method could be outdated.
The only thing that has changed is the peoples opinion of how people want to train dogs.

The dunking method, for the seeemingly impossible to cure diggers, some seem to be hung up on, and other techniques, or methods that are so very controversial, are intended only for the worst of the worst, and indeed would rarely, if ever, be used.

His techniques are not inhumane, nor are they "harsh" as some describe.
They are individualized for the indivdual dog, and therefore cannot be harsh, if it is what it takes to balance the dog.

They do result in a well balanced dog that functions well in society, and indeed if continued past the basic training into advanced, and ultra advanced levels, result in dogs that are a few notches above all other dogs.

This is not to say the all positive methods do not, or cannot work, I would dare say most owners would prefer to use the all positive, and treat training methods, and that most owners have dogs that do just fine using the all positive, and treat training methods.

If for whatever reason, the all positive, or treat training methods do not work with a particular dog, then the Koehler methods should definitely be considered, and if one chooses to go that route, then they should be used properly, and exactly as taught.


V WIlson
 

houndlove

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#9
Actually, some of the most vocal detractors of it used to use it themselves and teach others to do so.
 

Barb04

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#10
Been there, done it, don't like it and will never use that method again.
 
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#12
You have to figure that going to a trainer who is promoting themselves as using "the Koehler method" exposes you and your dog to a substantial risk that the trainer may very well be one who leans on the abusive crutches of the method.

I'd definitely steer very clear.
 

Herschel

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#13
If you're OK with hitting your dog to "teach" something then you might not mind Koehler's methods. However, for those of us that are against animal abuse, they aren't very humane at all.

VWilson, can you please cite specific examples of dogs that were trained with aversives being "a notch above" dogs that were trained with rewards?

Purdue, your post contributed nothing. If you want to complement VWilson, do it in PM. Otherwise, say something useful for once.
 
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Purdue#1

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no. when someone does something nice publicly then they should be complemented publicly.
 
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#15
If you're OK with hitting your dog to "teach" something then you might not mind Koehler's methods. However, for those of us that are against animal abuse, they aren't very humane at all.

VWilson, can you please cite specific examples of dogs that were trained with aversives being "a notch above" dogs that were trained with rewards?

Purdue, your post contributed nothing. If you want to complement VWilson, do it in PM. Otherwise, say something useful for once.
Heheh . . . Word for the day . . . . "sycophant"
 

Saintgirl

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#16
Purdue, I have asked before but am never answered. If these aversive training techniques are the absolute best methods around can you please explain why they are discredited by the majority of professional trainers and behaviorists today. I add today because of course you are going to see that the majority of trainers in the past promoted these techniques, but most of them have changed their methods. Why is this so if these methods that you are promoting are the best way to train your dog? Why is it that scholars teaching behavior modification in universities teach positive reinforcement to modify a behavior? That aversive techniques can create further behavioral problems and infact set back any progress made? These are not my opinions but come directly from university books in Behavior Modification such as Behavior Modification In Applied Settings by Alan E. Kazdin, or Behavior Modification : What is it and how to do it by Gary L Martin and Joseph Pear Or Behavior Modification: Principles and Procedures by Raymond G Miltenberger or perhaps this one Ethics for Behavior Analysts: A practical guide to the behavior analyst certification board, guidelines for responsible conduct by Jon s Bailey?

I am not saying that your methods do not work, Purdue. I am only asking why it is that you discredit modern science?
 

elegy

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#17
OK, I'm new to the whole dog training thing. But, can a case be made for some dogs that don't respond to positive methods?

My dog just wants to please me, she is very easy to deal with and train. But I do encounter dogs that make me wonder how in the heck the handler deals with them.

Do some dogs just need harsher methods??
i don't think so. i think the handler just needs to figure out what buttons to push with that dog- find out what interests them, and what they find rewarding. a big part of positive training is that you put the dog in charge- the dog has to figure out what to do in order to get the reward. if the dog doesn't care about your reward, you're not going to have much success. it makes the handler think outside the box a lot, and i think that's definitely a good thing!
 

heartdogs

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#19
OK, I'm new to the whole dog training thing. But, can a case be made for some dogs that don't respond to positive methods?

My dog just wants to please me, she is very easy to deal with and train. But I do encounter dogs that make me wonder how in the heck the handler deals with them.

Do some dogs just need harsher methods??
No, they need competent and inventive trainers, which anyone can become if they study the right mentors. Koehler got his dogs to obey, but they were undoubtedly doing so out of fear. Not the relationship I want with my dogs.
As a trainer, I am appalled at the number of people still touting this crap.
I have never laid a hand on my Aussie, yet I can call her off a moving live target and she magically appears at my feet. For the naysayers, who think that Aussies are easy to train - I have a hound with a recall, too.
 
V

VWilson

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#20
If you're OK with hitting your dog to "teach" something then you might not mind Koehler's methods. However, for those of us that are against animal abuse, they aren't very humane at all.

VWilson, can you please cite specific examples of dogs that were trained with aversives being "a notch above" dogs that were trained with rewards?

Purdue, your post contributed nothing. If you want to complement VWilson, do it in PM. Otherwise, say something useful for once.
I have reviewed the archives of this forum, and realize quite well the general consensus, of the some of the forum members who post most often, and where these threads head when questions about these methods are asked.

I politely refuse to engage.
I simply posted an answer to an inquirey, as part of the discussion.
Frankly, it is not worth my time to argue, and caterwaul with those who will not be influenced, or changed. Nor do I care if they are changed or influenced. I do not have to live with a problem dog, so it is of no concern to me.
I prefer to dust off my sandals and move on.

I am not one who cares to entrench myself in the dogma of any particular method to the point that it damages my dogs.
I would prefer to toss tidbits all day long to train, if it was feasible, and worked for the individual dog. Actually it is quite fun to train in such a manner; however, if it is not working, I am all for changing it up into something that works.
I choose to adapt to the training needs of the dog, and not even bother adapting the dog to my training needs.

The Koehler method, as it is referred to as, does work, and has its continiuum based on the core psychology of the dog. The "Positive only" methods are also based upon the psychology of the dog, although opinions may vary on the limits with the most training resistent dogs.

If a dog lives an average of 10 years, and the owner has been working on repairing for 2-3 years, then the problem, if repaired will consume a minimum of 20-30% of the dogs life. Some of us find that unacceptable if there is a quicker fix that will allow the dog to integrate in weeks, or a couple of months
Life is to short to spend large percentages of it with serious, but curable behavioral issues.

If the owner chooses to manage a problem for the entire life of a dog, even though the problem could be cured, then there is a problem with the owner, and choosen training method, not the dog.

Dogs seem to have a grasp on the concept of free will, and as such some will
choose to resist some training, and at that point it is proper to adapt to the dogs individual needs, and move to plan B.

We should be happy with the multiple methods of training available, as it means no dog is beyond helping, if we the humans are willing to adapt to the needs of the dogs

V Wilson.
 

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