Jonah isn't Jude!

[black&yellow]

Yes, I agree, exitement.... I had isues with this once, with a little mix I had who did agressive play. I had to teach her that when she saw a dog, she got a treat. So she would right away sit for me and watch for her treat. I couldnt go to the dog park with her because other dogs took her wrong. But with searching, I found another dog that did agressive play and we would make play dates with our dogs.

 

[Aleron]

No, I think puppy playtime is VERY important now and so is puppy class.

It is important to socialize puppies to other dogs and puppies but group play is not important and in some cases, can be harmful. IMO and IME learning to work around a lot other dogs is plenty of socialization. Puppies shouldn't be trained to think other dogs are more interesting than their owner, which is something group play tends to promote. I have done both with my puppies and taught years worth of puppy classes both with and without group play. In general, the owners in the classes with very limited/controlled or no group play were much more successful and the incidents of dog reactivity as the puppies matured was noticeably reduced. Common issues with puppy playtime included puppies quickly becoming overly interested in other dogs, owners having a hard time getting their puppies to focus, puppies learning rude/inappropriate behavior and puppies learning to be reactive at an early age. I have done modified puppy playtime with some classes and it works pretty well but it isn't so much about play time and it is very, very controlled.

Trish King's article is pretty good about the effects of group play on behavior. It is about dog parks but much of it applies to any group play setting: http://www.apdt.com/petowners/park/docs/DogParks_King.pdf

 

[elegy]

It is important to socialize puppies to other dogs and puppies but group play is not important and in some cases, can be harmful. IMO and IME learning to work around a lot other dogs is plenty of socialization.

Sorry, but I'll disagree on this til the cows come home. And we wonder why we have so many dogs in this country who are bad at understanding dog body language and are reactive and aggressive toward other dogs. We never let them learn from other dogs how to respond! Learning to work around other dogs is not socializing. It is learning to work around other dogs, learning to ignore other dogs.

I am all for well-run puppy classes that include structured puppy playtime as part of that class. I think it is tremendously important. Puppies need to learn how to play with other puppies. They also need to learn how to break out of play and return to their owners. Where better to learn that than in the structured situation of a class where all the owners are on the same page?

 

[Renee750il]

Completely agree with you, Elegy. Good post.

 

[Chewbecca]

Sorry, but I'll disagree on this til the cows come home. And we wonder why we have so many dogs in this country who are bad at understanding dog body language and are reactive and aggressive toward other dogs. We never let them learn from other dogs how to respond! Learning to work around other dogs is not socializing. It is learning to work around other dogs, learning to ignore other dogs.

I am all for well-run puppy classes that include structured puppy playtime as part of that class. I think it is tremendously important. Puppies need to learn how to play with other puppies. They also need to learn how to break out of play and return to their owners. Where better to learn that than in the structured situation of a class where all the owners are on the same page?

Agreed, 100%.

During our puppy training class, we did all structured training for the majority of the class, then the last 5-15 minutes, our trainer broke the pups into certain groups and had them play for a few minutes. Then the next group would play. I'm not sure exactly WHY she broke the puppies into groups, I think it was due to size and who got along better.
Luke was always scary to the smaller dogs, and Ophie didn't care either way.
Some puppies in the class were good together, and others, like Luke and the male ridgeback in class were NOT good together.

But playtime was short and then we had to take our puppies back.

Our trainer also brought in her well behaved and well trained ADULT dog for the puppies to be around once or twice.
She let her dog interact with the pups, and any out of line pups, got put BACK into line by her dog.
It's important that puppies are exposed to well adjusted adult dogs as well as other puppies.

Luke's been put in his place once or twice by adult dogs.
And I sat back and let it happen because he NEEDED to know to knock it off in a way that I couldn't tell him.

 

[Aleron]

Sorry, but I'll disagree on this til the cows come home. And we wonder why we have so many dogs in this country who are bad at understanding dog body language and are reactive and aggressive toward other dogs. We never let them learn from other dogs how to respond! Learning to work around other dogs is not socializing. It is learning to work around other dogs, learning to ignore other dogs.

And IMO free for all play isn't socialization at all. I see far more reactive dogs out and about now that people all want their dogs to have doggy friends then I ever used to. I don't want my dog to see other dogs as a potential threat or a potential play mate. My youngest puppy was raised with very little group play but a lot of socialization. She is one of the most reliable dogs in our beginner flyball class because she's pretty neutral on other dogs. She doesn't chase other dogs and ignores dogs who try to chase her. She is focused on her job and does it well. She is also far better with other dogs than a few of my older dogs who had a lot of group play as youngsters (and are now rather reactive on leash).

I have yet to see a dog who is reactive because they didn't get to have puppy play playtime. Lack of exposure and working around other dogs can cause issues. Still, I have not seen a well socialized dog who didn't have group play develop problems because of it. I have seen dogs who's reactivity issues likely resulted from group play. And I know several dogs currently who I' pretty sure would have developed reactivity issues had they been exposed to group play as puppies.

If group play prevented reactivity issues, most of the regular dogs at the daycare I worked at wouldn't have developed leash and barrier aggression. But they did. Most owners also couldn't even begin to get there attention when other dogs were around. Group play can encourage dogs to be overly interested in other dogs. That over interest can build frustration when they are restrained and frustration can build reactivity. There are other aspects that can contribute to reactivity too such as puppies in group play feeling they have to defend themselves from another puppy or puppies who really don't enjoy group play being forced to participate anyway.

When I first became involved in training, group play was not something that was routinely done. There were not puppy classes that heavily featured playtime. In classes, students were told every week to not allow their dogs to go up to strange dogs. And it seemed there were far less dogs who were dog aggressive or reactive to other dogs back then.

I am all for well-run puppy classes that include structured puppy playtime as part of that class. I think it is tremendously important. Puppies need to learn how to play with other puppies. They also need to learn how to break out of play and return to their owners. Where better to learn that than in the structured situation of a class where all the owners are on the same page?

That is the only situation that I feel is appropriate for puppy class - teaching puppies to come from distracting dogs. Free for all play though? I have found it has the potential to do more harm than good, especially in breeds or dogs predisposed to dog aggression or reactivity issues. It's funny too because at first, I was all for the play stuff. It took years of teaching puppy class and observing hundreds of dogs for me to come to this conclusion.

 

[Chewbecca]

But, puppy playtime for a few minutes, after a structured puppy training class IS socialization.

They get the structured, "working-around-other-dogs" time BEFORE the puppy playtime. The entire puppy training class doesn't consist of JUST puppy playtime.

Puppies in puppy training class shouldn't be forced to JUST work all the time during the class. That's like making a 2 year old human child sit in a classroom and work algebra for an hour with no break. I still think it's good to allow puppies how to learn to react to dogs in social situations. It's always good to teach puppies to ignore rude dogs.
But we're talking about puppies, and typically young puppies. They don't have to make BFFs throughout the class, but dogs are always going to be able to communicate with other dogs better than humans can, so they need to learn that communication from other dogs.

I think dogs being more leash reactive when exposed to puppy playtime as puppies, is going to depend greatly upon each individual dog. My female, Ophie, is all that much better around other dogs, I think, from being exposed to them (freely, for the most part) at such a young age when that window of development was there.
Of course, how well she is with other dogs can all change as she gets older, but for now, she is well balanced with other dogs. In fact, she is one of the most balanced dogs around other dogs that I have ever seen. And most importantly, I can call her away from other dogs, and she doesn't have to always play with other dogs. She just knows her manners around them.
She interacts with them very well. She's proper with her greetings, especially.

 

[Lizmo]

I still politely disagree, Aleron. Socialization, by definition, is "learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position." I do not think puppies/dogs can learn all that by just watching.

If you don't want your dog to play with other dogs, that's completely up to you. But I do think it has a huge affect on dogs. Just by how my two dogs act around other dogs. Blaze -who was raised around many new dogs to play/learn with- can ignore dogs and focus on the task at hand. Lizzie -who was raised with virtually no new dogs to play/learn with- has a horrible time focusing on me (or even her high, high value treats) with a new dog in her presence.

Come to think of it, Lizzie was (at about 1-2 years old) in the type of setting you talk about. Not getting to meet or play with the dogs, but had to work around them even chill around them. Her focus is squat compared to Blaze who's been free to interact with other dogs when not working.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I wish my dogs had had the chance for better puppy socialization through puppy play classes. If I ever get a puppy puppy it will be high on my list. As it is all my dogs are tolerant but relatively reactive social nimrods after missing some important dog on dog interaction that a human just cannot possibly teach a dog.

If I were the OP I would not miss the chance to utilize the training.

 

[JessLough]

I wish my dogs had had the chance for better puppy socialization through puppy play classes. If I ever get a puppy puppy it will be high on my list. As it is all my dogs are tolerant but relatively reactive social nimrods after missing some important dog on dog interaction that a human just cannot possibly teach a dog.

If I were the OP I would not miss the chance to utilize the training.

This. I was 7 when we got Rosey, and she never went to any classes or anything. She is... unsure of what the point of other dogs are :rofl1: Dogs try to play with her, and she looks at them like they are crazy :lol-sign:

 

[Bailey08]

Erin, I do think it sounds like normal puppy behavior. I wouldn't worry so much about reactivity at this age (though of course it's something all puppy parents -- all dog owners, really -- should stay aware of and on top of). Bailey was like Jonah -- he would literally scream at puppy class (it was pre-K, basically, before puppy kindergarten, so they puppies were all under 4 mos.), because he wanted to play with the dogs and didn't want to "learn." As an adult (he's almost 3 now) he likes other dogs (he goes to daycare on weekdays) and understands dog behavior well -- and he also likes me a lot more, and has good focus and loves training. In his classes, we used him several times as a "barrier" between other dogs who were having a hard time focusing because they wanted to greet each other and play. I don't profess to be an expert, and am far from it, but I'm just posting to say that I really wouldn't worry to much about this turning into something or indicating something about future reactivity.

As to the rest of the discussion, I agree that it is important that dogs learn dog behavior. Maybe it's because I live in the middle of a city, but dogs here interact with other dogs on a daily basis, and I think a dog being able to understand another dog's body language is quite important. For example, we share a yard with a pitbull adult who I think was really undersocialized with other dogs. I can understand why his owner might have thought that was the responsible thing to do given his breed (she's really careful with him, which is great), but, honestly, he is awkward and kind of rude with Bailey. Not at all aggressive. Bailey doesn't really care about the behavior (he puts up with lots of rude behavior, and above being Mr Snarkyface himself, ha ha), but I do wonder if more puppy socialization would have been helpful for NeighborDog. At the end of the day, NeighborDog is a great dog, is (as one would expect of a pitbull) wonderful with people, and has a great life, so it's not a big deal. *I* just prefer to have dogs that are well-socialized and understand dog behavior, to the extent possible, understanding that dogs have natural inclinations one way or another.

 

[Aleron]

I still politely disagree, Aleron. Socialization, by definition, is "learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position." I do not think puppies/dogs can learn all that by just watching. If you don't want your dog to play with other dogs, that's completely up to you. But I do think it has a huge affect on dogs.

Socialization is great If you have multiple dogs, your puppy will learn social interactions from them. If you don't (or even if you do), most people have friends with dogs that can become friends with your dog. My objection is not to allowing dogs to interact with other dogs, it's to free for all group play with whatever random dogs happen to be there such as is done in many puppy classes and at dog parks.

One of the dogs that I know who would have become reactive to other dogs if group play had been forced on him as a puppy is really good with other dogs. He lives with an adult female dog and is friends with a couple of her owner's friend's dogs. He also had 10 siblings and exposure to several other adult dogs from early on. I think that sort of situation covers the basis of dog-dog socialization very well.

The past couple years I have been teaching a yearly puppy class that lasts spring through fall which has been well attended by knowledgeable dog people with their new performance puppies. I started these classes because there was no class I found ideal to take Whimsy to. These classes have included very limited group play after class with a few rules - puppies have to be able to be called from the play and if any puppy isn't having fun, playtime is over for everyone. And puppies who overall don't enjoy the group play don't participate.

I also took Whimsy to a puppy class to the training club for fun. They don't do group play but do exercises where they let the puppies mingle and call them from the group. By the second try at that, Whimsy would glance at the playing puppies then focus on me. The instructor didn't care much for that but I thought it was perfect and she got a lot of treats for her focus despite distractions

 

[Southpaw]

I can see where Aleron is coming from. Now I've only had 3 dogs so my experience is limited. However of the 3 dogs, Juno is the reactive one and Juno is the one that I socialized like crazy, introduced her to as many dogs as possible, went to dog parks etc. And yeah, she LOVES dogs. However that excitement has always been a problem, she's always found other dogs WAAAYYYY more interesting than anything I could possibly offer her, and that harmless excitement has turned into reactivity. I like that she is a dog I can bring to daycare, a dog that can go to the dog park... but I DON'T like that she loses her brain at the sight of other dogs and thinks they are the best thing in the world. She can't even do a proper on-leash greeting, she right away throws her paws on top of the dog and tries to initiate wrestlemania. And I do think a lot of that stems from the fact that I exposed her to that as a puppy; I wanted her to like other dogs. She's socialized, but it was always a playtime free for all. She also finds squirrels and birds and people exciting, but it was much easier to teach her to be calm around them and to focus on me--not the case with other dogs.

Molly and Lucy on the other hand did not receive proper socialization as puppies. No, neither of them could ever go to a daycare but I could walk them through a crowd of dogs with no problem. If a dog would come up and sniff, there would probably be a little growling and snarkiness. But personally that is a non-issue for me because my dogs don't -need- to go places or do things where strange dogs will be on top of them. I prefer that behavior, over Juno's--because I can't even take Juno for a leisurely walk without stressing about how many dogs we might walk past.

There is a balance. I would be fine doing a puppy class and having that short play session once a week, and having a couple dog friends they can have playdates with... but I no longer feel compelled to bring a puppy to a dog park, or to have a meet and greet with every dog we come across. I would do a lot more focus work and teaching to enjoy the presence of other dogs, but to remain calm too.

Just my experience... we'll see how my next dog turns out haha.

 

[Lizmo]

Socialization is great If you have multiple dogs, your puppy will learn social interactions from them. If you don't (or even if you do), most people have friends with dogs that can become friends with your dog. My objection is not to allowing dogs to interact with other dogs, it's to free for all group play with whatever random dogs happen to be there such as is done in many puppy classes and at dog parks.

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. Thank you for explaining that further.

While I don't necessarily agree with the thoughts on playing in training groups (you do get to know those dogs), I see your point about dog parks. I personally wouldn't take my pup to play with unknown dogs in that setting, I think you can be setting them up to fail with the odds not in your favor.

 

[Michiyo-Fir]

I think puppy classes would help a lot.

Nia still does that to this day, barks barks barks and if she gets to meet the dog she'll still bark for another 30 seconds - a min. Her is out of excitement and uncertainty though. She has had a few bad experiences around other dogs so she's not sure if they're ok or not but she looves them so..yes she goes a bit nutty.

She's been doing pretty well with counter conditioning so that now if we're in a large field with 2 or 3 other dogs playing, she doesn't react or bother them (with reminders) so long as they don't charge up to her either.

As long as he's not showing growling/aggressive behavior I wouldn't worry. A little redirection and asking for attention wouldn't hurt either!

 

[Aleron]

I was reading the newest issue of BARK and thought Patricia McConnell's article on puppy classes fit in with this discussion. Especially this:

" I've written before about classes that throw puppies in what trainer/speaker Pia Silvani calls a "mosh pit" of out of control bullies who frighten the less assertive and teach them to be afraid of other dogs at an early age. Play sessions are the trickiest part of puppy classes, and in the opinion of a large number of behaviorists (including me), are the aspect of the classes that is most often poorly managed. Dogs tend to play two at a time, not in mobs, and forcing puppies together to "go play!" in large groups is often as successful as shutting a bunch of children who don't know each other in a small room and expecting them to enjoy it." Early Education, Bark magazine April/May 2011