quote by Buddy's parents
I've learned so much. If I would have been berated and flamed like so many are these days I know I would have left and not turned back. Why? Because I came here for help.. not to be told what an awful dog owner I was. And, thank God for Doberluv and Redyre at the time.. they helped! Now, I try to do the same for other newbies....annnnnd bite my bullet!!
Thank you for that Buddy. I'm so glad if even one little idea I have helps someone have an easier time with their dog and their dog has an easier time with them. LOL.
This is a good thread, interesting concept and so true about positive reinforcement working better on people to prevent them from shutting down, backing away, getting discouraged, toning down and losing confidence and interest in learning. Positive punishment, on the other hand does all those things. Emphasising and rewarding the good behavior tends to make the good grow bigger and bigger.... and the unwanted behavior gets squeezed out for lack of space.
It is the same with people as it is with dogs that way, the same with every animal. Actually, I believe it's the same with higher non mammals as long as they have a decision making brain and aren't running off of pure instinct. I have tropical fish and I observe them and how they learn to make associations between things. When they're good associations, (me opening the lid to feed them shrimp) they all come rip roaring up to where my hand is like a bunch of school children running toward the source of free hand-outs of candy. If I'm cleaning the aquarium, blasting around the bottom with the vacuum, stirring up stuff, making the water bounce around, scaring them, they all hide down low behind the rocks and plants. Scary or unpleasant things happening make them withdraw. (duh) LOL. Good things make them perky and responsive.
The first trouble with humans is, I think, that we are supposedly the most intelligent of the species. I think it's our intelligence which is our advantage as well as our detriment. It's a double edged sword. I tend to have more patience with dogs than I do with people. I expect more out of people than I do from dogs. It's very frustrating when you have too high expectations. Too much frustration causes some of us to go into a certain level of fight or flight drive. And that's when the **** hits the fan. We're primates. Primates flail their arms around and make a lot of noise.

LOL.
The second trouble with humans is that very fact that we
are primates. Primates do things very differently than dogs. We are different than dogs than we are to eachother (in many ways), as well. Dogs are different to dogs than they are to
us.
So, although I agree with what you say in this original, well thought out post, I also see some little glitches there on account of some of these factors. You say to us people who know that since non-aversive, none to little positive punishment in dog training works with all dogs and all mammals, it does in theory also work on people... then why do we do and say the rotten things we do... "Shame on us?" There is a little catch. We are primates. And we do relate to eachother differently than we do to dogs in many ways, depending on our expectations of people and our expectations of our dogs. If we have too high of expections for our dogs, we tend to treat them as we would the more intelligent human specie. We're highly emotional and complex.
With counter conditioning, we can modify a great deal of our
behavior but I believe our intrinsic
personalities have little hope for much change, (sort of like a dog who had no socialization as a puppy.) What's done is done. But there will usually be that time or two (only lol)where we fall back to our own nature and what we do with our thinking and emotions. And because of the huge array of individuals, experiences, personalities, there will coincide with that a huge multitude of behavioral responses.
Of course, the bottom line, as the original post here explains is that yes, as science shows us, giving a paycheck for one little good deed is more effective in behavior modification than giving a shove, (or positive punishment)...more effective because not only does it increase the probability of that good deed being repeated, (because all mammals work for reward) but it causes the subject NOT to shut down or withdraw, thus, they stick around eagerly to learn more. Learning then, because of momentum...snow balls.
I know I have not always been patient with some people on here. For that, I appologize. That's my personality to have a fairly short threshold for frustration. I am a primate and I have not had enough reinforcement probably for those
few times where I was patient. So, long- lasting, high threshold patience is not something I learned to repeat in some cases. It never seems to pay off well enough.

ROFLOL. And, on the other hand, like Dr.2Little, I have been accused of being arrogant, uneducated and a myraid of other uncomplimentary adjectives. (which I have never been accused of in real life) That positive punishment tends to catipult one like a rock from a sling shot...out of the thread, out of the desire to help someone asking for help, out of the state of having patience and into the fight or flight drive.

It's probably got a lot to do with human nature, in other words.
We never know for a while who we're dealing with, what their background is, what their perception of something is. It's extremely difficult without the luxury of seeing, hearing, watching body language, facial gestures to communicate, as on the Internet. Our cultures and upbringings are different. Our entire personalities are not visable. So, added patience is something we need when on the Internet. And yet it's something we seem to be starving ourselves for because it's easy....since we're leaving out such a great deal of facets of communication. Nobody has to see us. We can leave and never come back. We have an out if we want one. We don't HAVE to deal with anything too challenging. So we become a little bit lax. (?)
Thanks for the invigorating thread.
