Guilt

[Picklepaige]

Yes, I agree that the best way to solve the shelter issue is to keep dogs in homes in the first place. That said, I find it incredibly sad that so many dog people don't seem to care about the dogs that are already in the shelters. Telling people that shelter dogs are someone else's problem and that you shouldn't worry about them is hurting dogs that are already in the shelter.

I realize most of you live in areas where this isn't a problem. I'm at work right now, surrounded by the friendliest, happiest dogs and puppies, and I don't know which of them will still be alive when I come in on Sunday, so yeah, I've gotten a bit bitter about how "dog people" talk about rescue dogs.

 

[Laurelin]

ok, how is someone that keeps a dog from the moment they get it, till the day it dies not helping? Seems to me if more people did that, it would help tremendously

Well obviously if everyone did that there'd be no need for shelters. I'm not sure how reasonable it is to get there though.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be trying to get people to keep dogs. I do not think the solution is quite so simple in practice as to say 'well just don't bring dogs to shelters' I think a big chunk is also 'get dogs out of shelters'

I know the shelter I was at the best. There were a lot of changes after I left and they included changing the leadership. Removing some stupid policies that restricted adoptions (not all but some). Low cost spay and neuter programs. But the big ones were doing things like utilizing petsmart to showcase adoptable cats. Networking with rescues to pull dogs/cats. Having more accessible shelter hours. Doing public adoption events where animals were taken out into the community and showcased. Basically things that helped promote adoptions. Hank's shelter seems to be doing the same thing and in 8 years has doubled the live release rate, which is great progress. Still a lot to go though. The other local ACs seem to have similar rates.

Honestly I get frustrated because a lot of the opinions seem to come from people not really involved in any way? I am not involved really at the moment though do volunteer for a local rescue that pulls from AC. But it's complicated and I feel like people try to oversimplify it. I do not understand why there is such a resistance to acknowledging that getting animals out and adopted is a part of the solution. In my experience it is a lot of the solution.

 

[release the hounds]

i never said it wasn't. I"ve pretty much always said, I don't care where your dog comes from. Love it, give it a home, interact with it, and enjoy it.

it's been alluded to in this thread and others before it, that those getting dogs from breeders partially to blame. So, my dogs didn't come from a breeder, I adopted instead. Tell me what became of every dog that didn't end up with me because I adopted instead?

 

[Laurelin]

Yes, I agree that the best way to solve the shelter issue is to keep dogs in homes in the first place. That said, I find it incredibly sad that so many dog people don't seem to care about the dogs that are already in the shelters. Telling people that shelter dogs are someone else's problem and that you shouldn't worry about them is hurting dogs that are already in the shelter.

I realize most of you live in areas where this isn't a problem. I'm at work right now, surrounded by the friendliest, happiest dogs and puppies, and I don't know which of them will still be alive when I come in on Sunday, so yeah, I've gotten a bit bitter about how "dog people" talk about rescue dogs.

Me too.

 

[Laurelin]

i never said it wasn't. I"ve pretty much always said, I don't care where your dog comes from. Love it, give it a home, interact with it, and enjoy it.

it's been alluded to in this thread and others before it, that those getting dogs from breeders partially to blame. So, my dogs didn't come from a breeder, I adopted instead. Tell me what became of every dog that didn't end up with me because I adopted instead?

Using myself as an example so I hopefully don't offend people.

I bought Mia as a puppy. At the time I was working in a shelter. Me buying Mia didn't make the issue worse but I also didn't help the issue either by getting a custom bred dog. We had dogs I could have taken but I got a papillon because I like them and wanted one.

Good? Bad? I don't know. It is what it is. I'm not guilty about it at all. But I don't think I did anything then to 'help' the issue we have here with dog overpopulation.

 

[milos_mommy]

Who's bringing dogs to shelters?

People who have purchased puppies from some kind of breeder, largely, usually a BYB. A large percentage are people who are dropping the puppy off for something like they're unable to housebreak it, it jumps too much, it fights with their other dog, it's too nippy, it chases their kids.

If these people went to the shelter and adopted, there would be not one, but TWO less dogs in shelters.

We get A LOT of litters (or partial litters) of people who bred their dog because their sister and neighbor or whoever, wanted a to buy a puppy from their perfect wonderful purebred dog, but then they didn't account for the fact dogs have more than 2-3 puppies, and they dump the rest in a shelter. If those people adopted instead of purchasing (or went to a responsible breeder who didn't breed until they could account for ALL puppies), there would be 3 or 5 or 6 less puppies in a shelter, plus the 2-3 OTHER puppies or dogs they could adopt.

If someone's neighbor breeds their golden, and 6 people (who could have been VERY happy with a shelter puppy/dog that would fit their desires perfectly) buy their puppies, that's all good and well....but then their neighbor does it and can't sell the puppies and dumps them in our shelter. And 1) That whole litter is now at risk, and 2) 6 people could have been really happy with shelter dogs/puppies they could have adopted, but instead, 6 dogs get put down because they bought cute little "purebred" "papered" (even if they ARE registered and health tested and whatnot), and chances are, some of those puppies are going to end up in the shelter anyway because those people got puppies because "you have to raise them right", but the people have zero idea how to do that.

So yeah, if people in that category of just wanting a typical family pet go an adopt instead of purchase, A LOT less dogs would die in shelters. And I don't see how you could argue they wouldn't?

 

[milos_mommy]

Tell me what became of every dog that didn't end up with me because I adopted instead?

Ever hear of supply and demand? No, you individually adopting your dogs certainly didn't decrease how many irresponsible breeders breed puppies...but as a whole a larger population of "adopters" do. Who knows how many people have met your dog and decided to go the rescue route because they learned that good dogs can come from rescue?

 

[release the hounds]

pretty sure i've heard of it. Now I have dogs from a shelter, tell me what happened to every dog I've ever owned that I never got rid of. They went somewhere else because I got a dog from a shelter. Tell me what happened to them?

 

[Laurelin]

No one is saying you are responsible for every dog in existence if that is what you are (attempting to) get at. No one has said anything remotely like that.

 

[milos_mommy]

pretty sure i've heard of it. Now I have dogs from a shelter, tell me what happened to every dog I've ever owned that I never got rid of. They went somewhere else because I got a dog from a shelter. Tell me what happened to them?

I'm not even sure what you're asking or trying to say here? If you kept your dogs for life, I don't know where else they would have gone?

I'm certainly not saying that keeping a dog for life ISN'T helping to reduce shelter populations, obviously that's an important part of an equation. But promoting rescue/adoption to people over purchasing from a breeder, in cases where a breeder isn't going to offer anything that a shelter dog isn't (which is arguably most or many cases where someone is looking for a typical pet dog), is also an important part of it.

I don't understand how you think adopting a dog isn't helping to reduce euthanasia rates in shelters, and the only way to do that is to promote lifelong ownership?

Encouraging people to choose a dog that will fit with their lifestyle for the dog's life, and providing the resources they need to keep a dog, is important, and it's something good breeders do. But for many people, a dog they will keep for life is going to be a shelter dog, sometimes moreso than a breeder dog (especially from an irresponsible breeder). And the fact is, adopting a dog saves two lives. Is purchasing a dog condemning those dogs to death? No. But it's not saving them. And if you have the means and ability to save two dogs with absolutely no repercussions that you wouldn't have going to a breeder (meaning you want XYZ traits, and those shelter dogs have those traits), shouldn't that be encouraged?

 

[Beanie]

But promoting rescue/adoption to people over purchasing from a breeder, in cases where a breeder isn't going to offer anything that a shelter dog isn't (which is arguably most or many cases where someone is looking for a typical pet dog), is also an important part of it.

So nobody said you don't need breeders, huh?

I don't know why it's somebody else's decision if somebody "needs" a dog from a breeder or not. If they want a dog from a breeder, that is their business. The problem is - do they keep it?

 

[Liminal]

Answering just the OP:

I don't feel too much guilt for going to a breeder for my current dog. Breeder vs. rescue was not even a deliberately made decision for me this time around. I put word out that I was mainly looking for a stock dog breed or mix (cur or herder), and preferably out of working parents. There are individuals of breeds/mixes that I would have readily accepted coming from a shelter, but I found my dog's litter first, was able to watch his dam work, and just generally approved of her temperament.

I would like to take a dog from a shelter in the future, although whether I do will depend on what breed(s) I decide I'm most interested in. Another Catahoula, for instance, I would probably seek out a breeder for, because what I like to see in curs is well-rounded farm dog temperament, a good balanced mix of herder-like, hound-like and molosser-like or for smaller curs terrier-like qualities. Currently, enough Catahoulas are being bred to emphasize hunting and baying instincts over stock sense and/or or are being trained early on penned hogs, that it might be difficult for me to find the herding instinct I want in a Catahoula from a shelter. Or else I might run into stock dog training issues caused by early training of the then-future hawg dawg that was designed to encourage unchecked prey drive. (Notably not a big problem with my dog now - he gets excited to be sure, wants to work close and prefers high-pressure to low-pressure situations, but no signs yet that he won't be able to adjust his approach to sheep if that's what I ask.)

Kelpies, ACDs, Aussies, BCs, Lacys and mixes of those I might be more able to take from a shelter and still feel reasonably confident that the dog and I would mesh.

I do feel slightly more guilt for buying from the breeder I bought from, although not enough to seriously regret it, as he's grown into a healthy, promising dog. She was a bit of a line-skirter responsibility-wise. Not a Puppy Mill BYB or anything - she was breeding puppies out of sound, reasonably aged working dogs to sell to people who had shown interest in her dogs' working abilities, on a limited basis, and was not at all making much money from it - but still not as thorough as I would look for in the future, either. (Not that she is breeding anymore - two litters were her limit.)

I would have preferred to have seen a somewhat more serious screening, more/better parental health certifications, and most of all a program that included genetic testing for merle or at least excluded obvious merle/merle breeding. (I excused her enough to do business because according to known research Catahoulas are less likely to produce double merle dogs with serious impairments. Case in point, my dog is double merle and has no serious associated medical abnormalities to speak of. Many more reputable Catahoula breeders also do merle/merle, so the example being set for small-timers is conflicted.)

So overall, I'm alright with my choices even if I could have made even better ones. I got a good dog. I would like to take a dog from a shelter but whether I will is very situationally dependent.

 

[release the hounds]

You told me it was supply and demand. So, hypothetically, I didn't NOT get the dogs I got from a breeder. I got different ones from a shelter. Now those dogs have homes they will live in forever. Tell me what happened all the dogs I've ever had that did NOT end up coming home with me. Those dogs didn't have a home with me, because I chose shelter dogs. What happens to them? It's supply and demand right?

Taking 2 shelter dogs just means 2 other dogs don't get a home with me. Can you guarantee the end up the same as they did with me?

and again, I NEVER said adopting dogs was bad. Can you provide me with a quote, or at least a post number? Pretty sure I've said I don't care where your dogs come from. I really don't. I do care that people honor their obligations. So, can we leave this dead end argument?

 

[release the hounds]

So nobody said you don't need breeders, huh?

I don't know why it's somebody else's decision if somebody "needs" a dog from a breeder or not. If they want a dog from a breeder, that is their business. The problem is - do they keep it?

someone gets it

 

[Laurelin]

Well no one HAD said that when I posted that.

But really I do think people go to breeders over rescue out of misconceptions sometimes. It is their business to do what they want. I did not need a breeder dog but I got one. I mean that's the honest truth there.

 

[Laurelin]

You told me it was supply and demand. So, hypothetically, I didn't NOT get the dogs I got from a breeder. I got different ones from a shelter. Now those dogs have homes they will live in forever. Tell me what happened all the dogs I've ever had that did NOT end up coming home with me. Those dogs didn't have a home with me, because I chose shelter dogs. What happens to them? It's supply and demand right?

Taking 2 shelter dogs just means 2 other dogs don't get a home with me. Can you guarantee the end up the same as they did with me?

and again, I NEVER said adopting dogs was bad. Can you provide me with a quote, or at least a post number? Pretty sure I've said I don't care where your dogs come from. I really don't. I do care that people honor their obligations. So, can we leave this dead end argument?

If I didn't get Mia she would have been sold to someone else. If I didn't get Hank then...? Honestly he probably would have still been adopted but there was no guarantee.

I really feel like this is such a stupid argument. If I buy a dog from a breeder I am paying for them to produce dogs. Your argument assumes that all the dogs would continue to be produced at the same rate even if less people bought them. By that logic we should all be a okay buying pet store puppies. Because they would exist either way. And the only thing that matters is the individual dog

 

[release the hounds]

If I didn't get Mia she would have been sold to someone else. If I didn't get Hank then...? Honestly he probably would have still been adopted but there was no guarantee.

I really feel like this is such a stupid argument. If I buy a dog from a breeder I am paying for them to produce dogs. Your argument assumes that all the dogs would continue to be produced at the same rate even if less people bought them. By that logic we should all be a okay buying pet store puppies. Because they would exist either way. And the only thing that matters is the individual dog

no, by my argument, people would honor their commitments, and if it came from a pet store, I don't care. and they will exist either way. your argument has everyone going to a shelter, then what? every breeder just stops breeding? I don't buy it.

Less customers for breeders? yeah, that makes a difference. The good ones have customers and it will do NOTHING to stop those that, "just want a puppy" and in 6 months when everyone adopts every last dog out of the shelter then what? problem solved right?

Get a dog, take care of it. Problem solved.

 

[joce]

I think a big problem here is people convincing others they should not have pets. I swear I spend more time than I should telling people they are fine and their pets are fine and it will be ok and it does not have to be PERFECT!!!

I have taken dog and cat food to people including an admin of a local Facebook pages where people are told they are not good enough to have pets. It's sad. They are better off in their first home, in one home. I try to argue stuff but it's like talking to a wall.

I'd rather keep any pet in it's first home with food or training help. Just reassurance sometimes!!

Breeder or shelter pet people will dump it.

 

[Laurelin]

no, by my argument, people would honor their commitments, and if it came from a pet store, I don't care. and they will exist either way. your argument has everyone going to a shelter, then what? every breeder just stops breeding? I don't buy it.

Less customers for breeders? yeah, that makes a difference. The good ones have customers and it will do NOTHING to stop those that, "just want a puppy" and in 6 months when everyone adopts every last dog out of the shelter then what? problem solved right?

Get a dog, take care of it. Problem solved.

Oversimplified and optimistic

Ftr I have never said everyone should go to the shelter for a dog. I have said absolutely nothing of the sort.

 

[milos_mommy]

So nobody said you don't need breeders, huh?

I don't know why it's somebody else's decision if somebody "needs" a dog from a breeder or not. If they want a dog from a breeder, that is their business. The problem is - do they keep it?

I don't see how my post saying many people who purchase breeder dogs can find a dog like that in a shelter is saying we don't need breeders? I think in almost every post, I've said that if you do your research and determine that what you need in a dog is something you're going to find only in a breeder dog, or much more feasibly in a breeder dog (which for lots of people is true), go ahead and go to a breeder. I even said I'LL likely go to a breeder at some point for one or two of my future dogs because of very specific needs for sports or service work.

Most people just don't need a dog like that. And most people who just don't need a dog like that, don't know they can find the kind of dog they want in a shelter. If someone wants something really specific in a dog, and they can't find that in a shelter dog (be it breed, sport or working ability, health testing, whatever), they should by all means go to a breeder. But I can't believe that people who just want a regular pet should be going to a breeder who doesn't even keep track of where their dogs end up, when I spent time training 4 different shelter dogs this week that fit their list of requirements perfectly.