Egypt . . .

[Jules]

+1

And, FWIW... Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad and the like all have soup kitchens and hospitals too. AND a seething hatred of all things Jewish, American or pretty much anyone who does not "think the way I do about Islam".

I have not heard or read anything about the Army fighting the protestors. I've seen the article about "US Tear Gas", as if that is a terrible thing, but nothing about the ARMY using deadly force on the citizens. If you have another source that says otherwise, can you please share it?

YEP.

Our weak, man child President went to a party while one of our most important Muslim nation allies burned. I'm not saying that the US should have physically intervened or anything, but we could have shown a little leadership.... Right.... Nevermind. I forgot who the President was for a moment....

This is probably part of the plan anyway. LOL

I think it is bad enough that weapons, including tear gas, from the USA is used in an attempt to keep citizens from a revolution against their tyrant... I am not sure what else you are eluding to here... but in the always reoccurring justification of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is quite the contrary position here.

So, yay that the citizens of Iraq are freed from their dictator, but how dare the people of Egypt want the same?

 

[Lilavati]

One organization's list of possible outcomes. I don't know much about these folks, so take it for what it is worth.

The Jamestown Foundation: Special Commentary: Egypt’s Lotus Revolution- Scenarios for a New Middle East

 

[Zoom]

It's rather interesting that the army is just standing around, watching.

 

[GlassOnion]

YEP.

Our weak, man child President went to a party while one of our most important Muslim nation allies burned. I'm not saying that the US should have physically intervened or anything, but we could have shown a little leadership.... Right.... Nevermind. I forgot who the President was for a moment....

What would you have him do?

A) Back the government and you actively stand against democracy.
B) Back the citizens and you lose an ally if the wrong government takes over. Namely, that of the MB.

And they most certainly don't want *our* troops over there.

This is probably part of the plan anyway. LOL

What's his plan, exactly? No cop out answers like "he doesn't have one" either, because that doesn't seem to be what you're implying.

the Brotherhood is a very radical organization... Not unlike al lthe other "Israel sucks" groups.

Oh and why are you a radical if you don't like Israel? Nice, wide, long brush you got there.

 

[Puckstop31]

I think it is bad enough that weapons, including tear gas, from the USA is used in an attempt to keep citizens from a revolution against their tyrant... I am not sure what else you are eluding to here... but in the always reoccurring justification of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is quite the contrary position here.

So, yay that the citizens of Iraq are freed from their dictator, but how dare the people of Egypt want the same?

You misunderstand me... I am all for peaceful revolution that results in real liberty.


What I worry about is ditching Mubarak in favor of The Muslim Brotherhood. So far, that is what Mubaracks replacement looks like... One dictator for another....

 

[Puckstop31]

What would you have him do?

A) Back the government and you actively stand against democracy.
B) Back the citizens and you lose an ally if the wrong government takes over. Namely, that of the MB.

And they most certainly don't want *our* troops over there.

C) Declare that we are for a peaceful transition, where the MB, a declared enemy of Israel does not have power.

What's his plan, exactly? No cop out answers like "he doesn't have one" either, because that doesn't seem to be what you're implying.

Heh....

Either you think he is an idiot, with all his fabulous education and still blazes down a path history has proven, time and again, is suicidal.... (remember, GWB did the EXACT same thing Obama et all are doing, only Obama and the Dems are doing it on a MUCH bigger scale.)

OR...

He is brilliant, and knows exactly what he is doing.... Leading us down a path whose end is 100% cradel to grave control (enslavement) to .gov.


How better to enslave people than to destroy their purchasing power?

Oh and why are you a radical if you don't like Israel? Nice, wide, long brush you got there.

Does Israel have a right to exist? YES or NO? If Yes, why? If No, why?

 

[Romy]

Sad.

Gunfire in battle for Cairo's Tahrir Square - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

 

[GipsyQueen]

I feel horrible for people who don't live there and can't leave the country. My aunt was there on vacation shortly before all hell broke loose over there and were forced to leave Cairo by the embassey.

Mubarak is an idiot. He steps back and chooses a new government? Yeah, thats smart because thats what the people protesting want!

I don't see how its an embarresment to the US? You don't really have too much to do with it.
Barak's (and any potical leader) stance on the situation isn't an easy. I doubt its easy to take an actual stance without ruining your international connections all over.

 

[Dizzy]

Puck there IS no replacement lined up.

This is the problem. I don't think the normal peaceful egyptians would want to swap one nutter for another.

Are you suggesting 'better the devil you know'?

I think the egyptians on the streets are fighting for freedom, not for a more severe dictator.

The fighting on the streets is mostly accounted to the current gov paying "pro-gov" protesters - at least this is what is being hinted at.

 

[Lilavati]

Does Israel have a right to exist? YES or NO? If Yes, why? If No, why?

Of course they do. Why? In my opinion because they've been there for sixty something years and the country is now full of people with nowhere else to go. Whether or not the creation of Israel, in the way it was created, as a good idea, its done. And I think that the Jewish people, considering their history, do need a nation and a safe haven. Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

Which doesn't mean we should center our Middle East policy around their desires. It also doesn't mean that they are always right.

Gypsy, without going into a lengthy list of reasons, this is embarassing to the USA because the guy that we have backed for thirty years, providing him with money, weapons, etc . . . is being overthrown by a massive peaceful demonstration for democracy . . . when we have been advocating for democracy in the Middle East (and indeed, invaded Iraq partly to bring it about, or so we said). Its embarassing because our self-contradictory and often hypocritical foreign policy is now blowing up in our faces, leaving our leaders running around trying to find some way not to make the situation worse.

 

[Lilavati]

Not good: Journalists Arrested in Egypt | FrumForum

 

[Dekka]

When people ask if Israel has the right to exist now, I ask if the US, or Canada has the right to exisit. We came and moved in over people's ancestral lands. We shipped them off and took over their land. There are many similarities. (as well as differences, ie it would work better as an example if it went the other way... the natives came and took the land away from us.. but the point is that the people livnig there now are not the ones to blame)

 

[Baltimore Dog]

I believe that the United States must need to stay out of that situation or perhaps do not get to involved in it. We do not want to get in another mess like Iraq and be sending lots of troops. They must need to comeback.

 

[Lilavati]

When people ask if Israel has the right to exist now, I ask if the US, or Canada has the right to exisit. We came and moved in over people's ancestral lands. We shipped them off and took over their land. There are many similarities. (as well as differences, ie it would work better as an example if it went the other way... the natives came and took the land away from us.. but the point is that the people livnig there now are not the ones to blame)

What I'm tired of is if you criticize Israel, or suggest that the US should not back something Israel is doing, or do anything that suggests that Israel is not priority number one and always right, you "don't think Israel has a right to exist." Huh? I disagree with lots of people and countries, and I think they all have a right to exist. Yes, I know this is technically a question about Israel's legitimacy, and yes, I think Israel is legitimate (at least, as legitimate as a whole bunch of other nations . . . like pretty much ALL of the Western Hemisphere). But its used to make anyone who says that they disagree with Israel sound like they are advocating another Holocaust.

 

[Lilavati]

This is just spooky:

The Pro-Regime Text Messages - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

 

[Lilavati]

An interesting comment on the whole issue of what Obama should be doing:

The Echo Chamber - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

I'm pretty much inclined to agree with this.

 

[GlassOnion]

Either you think he is an idiot, with all his fabulous education and still blazes down a path history has proven, time and again, is suicidal.... (remember, GWB did the EXACT same thing Obama et all are doing, only Obama and the Dems are doing it on a MUCH bigger scale.)

OR...

He is brilliant, and knows exactly what he is doing.... Leading us down a path whose end is 100% cradel to grave control (enslavement) to .gov.


How better to enslave people than to destroy their purchasing power?

You think Obama single handedly caused the economy to crash and that's all part of his plan?

Is he (and congress) handling the situation well? Nope. But I don't think it's out of malice, just inability. That's not to say I think government is on our side, but I doubt that their end-game is the destruction of the USA, because if they did that, there'd be no one to pay them.

But it's interesting that you dislike Obama though because his track record, since being in office, has been pretty much identical to that of a Republican's. For example, he extended the Patriot Act and buckled on getting rid of tax cuts. Aren't those Republican ideals?

Does Israel have a right to exist? YES or NO? If Yes, why? If No, why?

We've played this game before. You think they should exist because it's in the bible. I don't think they should have been (re)created after the war, but since they're here now, yes they have a right to exist because you can't really just destroy a nation that you re-created at this point. They don't have a right to be dicks though and encroach on other people's land in the name of settlement expansion.

You see this as reclaiming their old territory, granted to them by a divine right. I see this as aggressive expansion into territory that is no longer theirs. The British don't demand back old colonies. Italy doesn't demand back the old Roman Empire. [insert country who took land] doesn't demand back [land].

 

[Puckstop31]

You think Obama single handedly caused the economy to crash and that's all part of his plan?

Is he (and congress) handling the situation well? Nope. But I don't think it's out of malice, just inability. That's not to say I think government is on our side, but I doubt that their end-game is the destruction of the USA, because if they did that, there'd be no one to pay them.

But it's interesting that you dislike Obama though because his track record, since being in office, has been pretty much identical to that of a Republican's. For example, he extended the Patriot Act and buckled on getting rid of tax cuts. Aren't those Republican ideals?

Republican - Democrat. I don't play their game. There is little, if any difference anymore.

Single handedly? Heck no. The current state of affairs is about century in the making. And a way more in depth discussion that I have time to get into right now.

The arguement that Obama is Bush's 3rd term is something I use to 'talk' to the hard core "Democrats" I know. Once the facts are out, there is very little they can say.

So, stop thinking of me as a "Republican". I'm not. If you want to label me, call me a "Constitutional Libertarian". LOL

We've played this game before. You think they should exist because it's in the bible. I don't think they should have been (re)created after the war, but since they're here now, yes they have a right to exist because you can't really just destroy a nation that you re-created at this point. They don't have a right to be dicks though and encroach on other people's land in the name of settlement expansion.

You see this as reclaiming their old territory, granted to them by a divine right. I see this as aggressive expansion into territory that is no longer theirs. The British don't demand back old colonies. Italy doesn't demand back the old Roman Empire. [insert country who took land] doesn't demand back [land].

Fair enough. But you do agree they have a right to exist.

I'd give a history lesson on the woes of nations that have decided to stand against Israel.... But I gotta split and I don't think you care. LOL

 

[Lilavati]

By the way, since a lot depends on the MB, this is a take from an organization that I'm inclined to trust. Its not very conclusive (probably a sign of accuracy, honestly) but at least there's not much of an agenda. These guys provide advice to businesses . . . its not in their interest to have a political spin.

Egypt And The Muslim Brotherhood: A Stratfor Special Report | zero hedge

 

[GlassOnion]

Fair enough. But you do agree they have a right to exist.

Only to the extent that the damage has been done and to undo it would be throwing gas on the fire. 60 years ago, they had no right to exist.

I'd give a history lesson on the woes of nations that have decided to stand against Israel.... But I gotta split and I don't think you care. LOL

You've talked about this before as well, but if they don't exist, then they can't do anything. The fundamental difference is you believe it's some divine intervention that's allowing them to have such fortune. I do not, so in a way yes, I don't care, but only because it's irrelevant. Nations have fallen in the past and they stayed dead. Israel is here only because it was taken pity upon. It's the ultimate in welfare.