E collar i want to buy? is this ok

[Doberluv]

Captbob, You make references that what type I am using or how I'm using it is wrong. First, I must make one thing clear. I do not use any shock collar or any aversive positive punishment in association with the recall or anything else.

I realize that they probably make better ones these days with more settings, more reliability in that hopefully, they don't malfunction as often.

When you add something to the dog's environment which causes him to stop doing what he's doing it is a positive punishment. I do not believe in using aversive positive punishment to train a dog to come to me. I don't use harsh aversives to train anything. I will use a verbal NRM sometimes.

My feelings about an electric collar are shared by most animal behaviorists and positive method trainers with advanced degrees in animal behavior. There are too many things that can go wrong with using aversives on a dog. So, other methods are used instead for people who understand canine behavior and do not like using aversives on their dog.

Did you or you, Hedwig read the link I put up? Those organizations are full of applied animal behaviorists and trainers. They do NOT agree with using an e collar and are in fact all for the banning of them. This is not based on old, 20 yr. old collars. These people are current and know what they're talking about. There is good reason why NOT to use an e-collar, whether someone wants to believe it or not or make excuses that it is a "stim" or a "correction." All these pretty synonyms for aversive positive punishment in the form of a shock don't change the concept. I don't care if you poked your dog with your finger nail when he didn't come. That is still using avoidance techniques to train a dog. That is not necessary and it can cause a lot of side effects, as I quoted from some very highly regarded and esteemed behaviorists with PhDs in applied animal behavior. To follow my post with their quotes by saying I don't know what "I'm" or.....they're talking about is ludicrous. To me, training a dog by force or avoidance as the main tool of choice is bordering on immoral. What right do we have as another species to coerce an animal into doing our will? Especially, when there are other ways?

My Doberman has a very high prey drive...there is sighthound in his make-up, for goodness sake. He can be running after deer and come when called when in mid chase. The same goes for squirrels, although I let him chase squirrels, but chasing deer is a big, giant no no. So, I conditioned him to come with these distractions. You don't wait until your dog is already being reinforced by chasing the animals or whatever he is interested in. There is a method. (too long to describe here Hedwig, but you can find in other places. I'll help you locate if you wish)

I use to use squirrels for part of my training. I'd let him alert to the squirrel, ask him to come and then turn him loose after he came and sat first. He learned through conditioning and repitition that he would get to chase the squirrels after he came first. That was one of the things I did. It didn't happen in 10 minutes. It took longer. It was a process. He also has chased dogs who wandered into my pasture and I hollered out from about 300ft away to down. He dropped and waited for me. These things were taught with motivation and reward methods, baby steps and enough time to proof each baby step. I am never in a big rush to train my dogs anything. I rely on my dog's trust in me and our relationship. Without explicit trust and never one iota of a worry about what might happen to him next, he is sooooo much more willing to work with me. I do not use force or harsh aversives of any kind and I have a dog who comes when called because it's always worked for him. When he regresses at times a little bit, it's because I have slacked off in reinforcing him or working to spruce up his training. All behavior can regress when the dog never gets reinforced. Would you rather depend on reinforcing with something good that the dog works for....... or reinforcing with something the dog works to avoid?

Do I take him out along side a busy road off leash? Heck no! Dogs are animals and there is always a chance for error. I am not willing to risk his life. I do not put him into situations where his life could be at risk whether on or off leash. I wouldn't no matter how well he was trained. That's just stupid.

 

[Bahamutt99]

If its just a tingle, then why do some dogs yelp and jump when given the collar correction? I am foursquare against the use of electricity in training. I feel like its a shortcut for people who are afraid to just use their own skills in training a dog.

 

[Captbob]

If its just a tingle, then why do some dogs yelp and jump when given the collar correction? I am foursquare against the use of electricity in training. I feel like its a shortcut for people who are afraid to just use their own skills in training a dog.

The collar stim level is set way too high. The person using it, probably did not work with an E Collar Trainer, and never learned how to set the level, or use it properly. It may be an much older collar, that has very few stim level settings.

 

[Doberluv]

How are you going to insure recall, when the dog is hundreds of feet away?

When you're beginning to teach it? You don't. You don't start out at hundreds of feet away. That's just it. People don't get it and say, "positive methods don't work. I called him from 500 ft away and had a cookie and everything and he wouldn't come." Duh.....He's already being reinforced by his environment. You have to condition a dog in baby steps.

Smkie..

i have had pointers in the past that were runners. VIc was a runner when i first got him. I know exactly how hard it is to teach a pointer (or any dog that is a runner) not to do it. FIrst you have to get their respect, teach them that they do not call the shots. That can't be done with an electric collar, it takes a zillion hours of obedience and hard work on recall. Part of the repsonsibility of taking a high energy dog in the first place. IT can be done without prongs or chokes or electricity. It has to be done with repitition and a ton of love. Good luck.It took me three years but by working on it daily after year one we were good on recall, by year two we were a hundred percent in border training (i have no fence) and by this year he walked three miles off leash with me last week.

:hail: :hail: :hail:

Exactly! It's the relationship. I keep trying to drive home that point in so many posts and it gets passed over so much of the time. It is truly the most important training tool there is. When your dog trusts you completely and you have a partnership thing going on instead of a dictatorship, motivation and reward, it's amazing how well dogs respond and learn.

All dogs do not respond exactly the same to every nuance of training method. However, they do all learn by operant and classical conditioning. There are variations needed, sure....like different rewards or motivators, different scenarios to set up. But scientific learning theory is still across the board with all mammals. So, I get kind of "Oh gosh, here we go again. All dogs don't learn the same way." Well, yeah....they do actually as far as basics go. Some may be softer or tougher or some don't like liver treats, but prefer toys. Some shrink at a harsh word, some are so callous, nothing backs them down. But the learning process, how the brain works, the fact that they're opportunists and scavengers still is the same in dogs. They're all the same species and they do learn the same way.

 

[hedwig]

how did you train your dog not to train your dog? i would like links please.

i dont want to go and destroy what i have with my dog and wouldnt if there is the slimmist chance i can train him out of it. what i have done has no affect whatsoever so maby there is a techneque? how did you do it. this is why i came to the site to find out more info

 

[Captbob]

When you're beginning to teach it? You don't. You don't start out at hundreds of feet away. That's just it. People don't get it and say, "positive methods don't work. I called him from 500 ft away and had a cookie and everything and he wouldn't come." Duh.....He's already being reinforced by his environment. You have to condition a dog in baby steps.

My dog completely understood what come mean't prior to using the E Collar.. Duh!!!! I incorporated the E Collar to have instant recall at the dog park, with multiple dogs running around and playing. In less than an hour I had that recall . No months of trying this and trying that, and still getting erratic recall behavior as do almost all of the other dogs at the park, many of which have had extensive obedience training by the way. When people comment to me on the great recall I get, with my dog happily running towards me wagging it's tail, I explain the E Collar. Since then, two other owners at the park have contacted an E Collar trainer, purchased one, and are enjoying the same results as I get. The other owners just continue to call their dog's with " Here Spot, Come Spot.... Come Spot.....Spot you get over here NOW ...etc....etc.... while the dog puts them on ignore from the other side of the park.. It gets quite humourous, actually......

 

[Dizzy]

My dog completely understood what come mean't prior to using the E Collar.. Duh!!!! I incorporated the E Collar to have instant recall at the dog park, with multiple dogs running around and playing.

EXACTLY!

You're dogs where already recalling.... This dog ISN'T when it sees an animal.

So it is a mute point.

The ecollar is a replacement correction. If it is ignoring one on lead, it is not going to respond to a "tingle" from an ecollar!!!

Personally, I feel that if millions of people put in the time and effort NOT using one and get great results, why resort to an electric shock collar??

It is a quick fix solution, and often misunderstood, and misused.

Remember - this thread is about ONE particular dog - not yours which were already coming on command.

 

[Dizzy]

How are you going to insure recall, when the dog is hundreds of feet away?

Like I suggested - use a LONG lunge or training line.

And WORK HARD. It's not rocket science - it is patience.

When the dog is recalling from HIGH distraction whilst still hundreds of feet away on the lunge line, you progress to a safe place off the lunge line.

 

[dr2little]

My dog completely understood what come mean't prior to using the E Collar.. Duh!!!! I incorporated the E Collar to have instant recall at the dog park, with multiple dogs running around and playing. In less than an hour I had that recall . No months of trying this and trying that, and still getting erratic recall behavior as do almost all of the other dogs at the park, many of which have had extensive obedience training by the way. When people comment to me on the great recall I get, with my dog happily running towards me wagging it's tail, I explain the E Collar. Since then, two other owners at the park have contacted an E Collar trainer, purchased one, and are enjoying the same results as I get. The other owners just continue to call their dog's with " Here Spot, Come Spot.... Come Spot.....Spot you get over here NOW ...etc....etc.... while the dog puts them on ignore from the other side of the park.. It gets quite humourous, actually......

What the heck would anyone's dog be doing 100's of feet away from them in the first place???????:yikes:

I think that it's really interesting that people who say an e-collar is necessary for training a recall in the next breath claim to only use low level "stimulation".
If all you needed in order to ensure a rock solid recall was a low level buzz, why then were you unable to proof with anything else ? This goes completely against the laws and theories of the use of aversives in the first place. It makes absolutely no sense. If it is not painful, then what exactly makes it more motivating than a properly proofed Emergency Recall????

Why is it that people claim to need need a professional to assist them in using this device yet I don't know of one good trainer who would consider using one. How is it that there are so many trainers/behaviorists (myself included) successfully teaching recalls and many more complex behaviors to 1000's of dogs without the use of these tools?

The term E-collar trainer....what an absolutely frightening thought.:yikes:

I'm very familiar with the new shock collars of today and believe me there is just as much room for error and potential for permanent harm to your dog both physically and psychologically.

Work on a regular recall and then condition an Emergency Recall term for those times when you need the extra motivation.
This is one of my class handouts for the Emergency Recall. I hope that it's easy enough to understand, it's given with explanation during all classes and private training sessions. BTW, the "DUCK-DUCK-GOOSE is my emergency recall for Sophie and is demo'd in class with her under a crazy bunch of competing motivators..in case you're wondering about the title of the handout.

DUCK DUCK..GOOSE!! - EMERGENCY RECALL

Lets say your dog somehow got off leash and was headed towards a busy road during rush hour traffic. What would you do? Do you have a foolproof plan? The EMERGENCY RECALL is the most important command that you‘ll ever teach your dog. Here’s how it works -

We’ve already gone over the importance of calling your dog ONLY when he is already coming to you in order to teach a proper recall. Let’s take 3 of those perfect recalls every day and hard wire them for an EMERGENCY.
First, decide on a word or series of words that you and your family will use for the EMERGENCY RECALL. It should be something that you’ll remember, that you don’t already use around the dog, and that he won’t hear at the dog park…..like DUCK DUCK…GOOSE!!!!

Find some EXTRA special treats, something he absolutely drools for, that you will ONLY use for EMERGENCY RECALL and have them ready in your pocket.
Three times a day, when your dog is already coming to you, call him with your EMERGENCY recall word or words. When he gets to you, take a full 30 seconds and while repeating this recall - feed him his favorite treat in small pieces. Create a fine dining experience, one that he’ll thoroughly enjoy and remember.

Make sure to only practice this 3 times/day for the first 2 weeks (morning, noon and night) and ALWAYS pay for the full 30 seconds while repeating his EMERGENCY recall command over and over. As you start to see him respond…and you will, you can call him from a bit more distance and with more distraction. Be sure to go slow, you don’t want to add difficulty before your EMERGENCY recall is hard wired.

Once he is responding 100% of the time to the 3 EMERGENCY recalls/day, space them out to once/day, then 3/week and so on. You MUST always pay…ALWAYS!

You MUST practice this once/week for life whether you need it or not just to keep it fresh. I still practice this once/week with my dogs and have used it successfully in a variety of situations that have caused people to stand with their jaws dropped in amazement at its effectiveness. It works, and it may just save your dog’s life some day.

 

[hedwig]

never heard of that method but thanks hehe

 

[Dreeza]

You had a very bad trainer......and that is a shame, for both you and your dog. Just as there are bad trainers using many methods, there are probably bad trainers using E Collars. If anyone sees a dog that is yelping when an E Collar is used, during training, tell the trainer that they should stop immediately, and that you will find another trainer that knows what they are doing.

The thought of my dog responding only to a 'tinge' at first is laughable.

Dr2Little, as always, does a fantastic job of explaining why.

Why the HECK would my dog, or Hedwig's dog stop doing their absolute FAVORITE thing in the entire world to get a treat.

This is an example of WHY this doesn't work, and this example is from AFTER he was trained with the E Collar, something I am still working with him to fix (obviously withOUT the collar):

Oakley will get into 'stalk' mode when he sees a squirrel or a bunny. It is very easy to tell when he sees one, and if I do NOT want him to chase it, I immediately give him his 'easy' or 'lets go' command which tell him he MUST stay by my side. He listens...and I can always tell when he is about to bolt, so I reinforce the commands as needed. People have watched in absolute amazement with how well he stays by me.

The thing is, he is in a complete trance-like state, and it is basically impossible for me to get him to look away from the squirrel. I have brought out his most favorite treats (i've tried MANY different 'favorite' rewards of his), and NOTHING has worked to draw him away. I will hold it right up to his mouth without making him do anything to earn it (if he took it, he would basically be rewarded for staring at the squirrel), but he just scoffs at it, and will NOT touch it. I physically tap him, nudge him, shove him (nicely, lol...just throw him off balance a little)...nothing works.

He has a "look at me" command, and every now and then I get him to look away and actually look up...but when he does it, if he does it for more than a split second, he stares up into the sky and not at me...(he is just staring where I am normally standing...but if I am a step or two back, he doesnt adjust his eye gaze)..its actually kinda freaky looking, at how much of a trance-like state he is in.

I usually reward his looking up by letting him chase it...cause I cannot think of ANY other way to reward his attempts since he won't take food, and he really doesn't respond that much to praise in any situation, but especially when he is outside.

The one thing he has down absolutely 100% is NOT running in the street. This was taught without the E collar...just by making him sit at every friggin corner we come to, and when he would step into the street without permission, we would act like his death was upon us, and freak out.

He now, with no command whatsoever, will actually stop mid-chase once the bunny/squirrel crosses the street. It is awesome, and a great comfort to know that if for some reason he ignores his recall (which he does every now and then while chasing), he at least isn't gonna get hit by a car (not that there are a lot of cars around...) cause he will NOT run into the street.

Like Dizzy said, the time and effort needs to be put into training the dog. As I mentioned, I HATE the fact that Oakley was trained on an E collar. The thing is, we needed a quick fix...

I am 100% positive that Oakley, either with more time, or with a better, non E collar trainer, would have been trainable, and be as good as he is now off and on leash. With our family though, my parents had basically had it up to there with him, and it was more of a "fix his issues NOW, or he goes back to the pound" And with his aggression issues, he would haven't even been given another chance at life.

 

[Doberluv]

Hedwig, the best thing I can advise is to buy the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. You can order it through Dogwise.com, a reputable company. Or a book store could order it for you. I highly recommend this book so that you can learn how dogs learn and how they perceive things, what science has shown us. She has a wonderful chapter on the recall....the kindergarten recall, elemtary school recall, highschool and college (I think those are the levels) There are exercises to do which combat the prey drive thing. In escense you are teaching your dog that the object of his desire is procured by coming to his handler, not by directly going to the prey...sort of how I described what I did with my dog, but she describes it so well and has very systematic exercises. I think the book would help you immensely, not only with the recall, but with everything. You won't be doing things by rote. You'll learn a lot about how dogs learn and will be able to apply what you learn to all kinds of situations that come up.

In the meantime, don't let your dog get reinforced by getting to run off at all. Keep him on a long line. Practice games like hide and seek inside and the game that Redyre explained with other people. http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16967&highlight=teaching+the+recall

There are many things owners do which inadvertantly teach their dog NOT to come and not to come under every circumstance. It is not because the dog is stubborn, but because he's learning right on schedule....the way dogs learn. It's because of behavioral law. This is why reading and studying that book is so valuable. There are other good books too, but I'd start with that one.

 

[Captbob]

EXACTLY!

You're dogs where already recalling.... This dog ISN'T when it sees an animal.

So it is a mute point.

The ecollar is a replacement correction. If it is ignoring one on lead, it is not going to respond to a "tingle" from an ecollar!!!

Personally, I feel that if millions of people put in the time and effort NOT using one and get great results, why resort to an electric shock collar??

It is a quick fix solution, and often misunderstood, and misused.

Remember - this thread is about ONE particular dog - not yours which were already coming on command.

You didn't carefully read what I wrote. I said that my dog understood the recall command. If you can recall a dog from 10 feet away, it understands the command. If you move to 100 feet away , and yell "come", it still understands the command, but it may not comply. That is what the E Collar reinforces, the compliance to a known command. We can chit-chat back and forth all day about this issue, but as I have said several times, if you want to learn about E Collars, you need to find a trainer and let that trainer teach you how to properly use one. That is the only way, one can understand the concept of how quickly and reliably it works.

If you are trying to stop inappropriate pack behavior, like chasing animals, running into the street, aggressive , a different method is used. Again, refer to remark about finding a good Trainer....


I have a friend at the Dog park that laughed when I got my E collar. He has been working with his dog for over a year, to get it to come under distraction and at a distance. When at any distance, his dog will blow him off and ignore his commands, pleas, begs, or whatever else he resorts to trying to get his dog to come. In the last couple of weeks, because my dog and his dog play and run together all the time, he will sheepishly ask me to recall my dog when he has to leave, and then usually his dog will follow mine back from the other end of the park, so he can leash it up and be on his way.

 

[Dizzy]

You didn't carefully read what I wrote. I said that my dog understood the recall command. If you can recall a dog from 10 feet away, it understands the command. If you move to 100 feet away , and yell "come", it still understands the command, but it may not comply. That is what the E Collar reinforces, the compliance to a known command.

My dog also understands the come command. I DO walk near livestock - cattle.

She had perfect recall, and I got relaxed and didn't reinforce it so she decided she wanted to forget it all recently, and played deaf. Would stand there, look at me and run the other way.

She'd come when SHE wanted to - be it 10 yards or 100 yards. I got VERY VERY frustrated with it.

I didn't need buy an ecollar to reinforce a command she DID already know.

I used patience, and my own intelligence to make her understand that coming to me is WORTHWHILE.

I started her off again from scratch. On a lead, and at home. No ecollar or sharp corrections needed.

She will come to me now, pretty much 100% again. We're still working on it, it wasn't overnight.

YOU do not need an ecollar, your dog is not in the same situation as the OP's dog.

The fact is, that if your dog wasn't complying to recall from 100 yards away (as oppose to 10) you haven't trained your dog properly to begin with. Recall is recall - be it 10 yards, 100 yards or whatever.

Recall from chasing livestock, or birds is NOT the same as calling a dog distracted by playing at the park. You do not need an ecollar for that - that is just lazy.

 

[Doberluv]

If you can recall a dog from 10 feet away, it understands the command. If you move to 100 feet away , and yell "come", it still understands the command, but it may not comply.

I'm sorry, but behavioral law and science disagrees with that. First off, commands do not drive behavior. Second, it is well known that dogs do not generalize well at all. So, if a dog comes under one type of circumstance or distance, coming from another is not the same thing at all until it has been proofed in all scenarios. This is why trainers who understand behavior, proof in many contexts and locations and work up from easy to difficult etc. Reinforcement is what causes behavior to be repeated. Cues are merely used to elicit a behavior.

Many dog owners have set their dogs up from day one to fail. Many people presume their dogs understand a cue because the dog comes sometimes under some circumstances. Then when the dog doesn't one time here or there, they call the dog stubborn or the dog is "blowing him off" or "ignoring" the command. The dog is, in fact learning according to scientific learning behavior. He is right on schedule. He is NOT being "stubborn" or being "willful."

Many owners do not prepare a new puppy for success. They set them up to fail. They do many things inadvertantly which make the prompt to "come" mean things other than to come. "Come" can mean all kinds of things. It can mean the end of the freedom at the park. It can mean some obnoxious grooming procedure. It can mean the fun is over and in the crate puppy goes. People think their dog knows what come means because he comes sometimes and is being "stubborn" because often the owner doesn't set the dog up with a higher motivator. (I repeat, set the dog up) Of course, once the dog is being reinforced elsewhere isn't the time to try and train.) The time to train is from the outset. If this hasn't been done, it can still be done, but with a systematic method.

Many owners who are looking to avoid training their dog and justify the use of aversives, attribute human reasoning, values, morals and cognitive powers to dogs where they do not have those abilities.

What has taken me 6 years of study and some schooling can not be put into one single post. That is why I recommend the book, Culture Clash. You'll get a much better picture of how dogs learn Hedwig. You'll see why using aversives such as a shock collar is insane...to punish a dog for something that he has been inadvertantly taught to do by humans is ludicrous. Dogs learn by learning laws, like laws of physics. The things which people call "blowing off" and "stubborn" and "defiance" are none of those things. The dog has learned those things because humans have taught them those things.

I have a friend at the Dog park that laughed when I got my E collar. He has been working with his dog for over a year, to get it to come under distraction and at a distance. When at any distance, his dog will blow him off and ignore his commands, pleas, begs, or whatever else he resorts to trying to get his dog to come. In the last couple of weeks, because my dog and his dog play and run together all the time, he will sheepishly ask me to recall my dog when he has to leave, and then usually his dog will follow mine back from the other end of the park, so he can leash it up and be on his way

Captbob....your example of your friend at the dog park is hardly an argument for the use of e-collars. Are you really saying that since what he did didn't work, an e-collar is the only answer? He obviously doesn't have a clue how to train a dog. An e-collar is a ridiculous excuse or answer for not training a dog.

 

[Dekka]

OK I have used an ecollar. I was curious when a few others in my obedience club started taking lessons with them. I personally cannot bring myself to hold one on my hand past stim level 2 (can't feel 1) This was a tritronic one, so a good modern make.

I have since stuck to the positive training. I don't wish to supress, but to teach my dogs. I have 3 HITs with JRTs in the obed ring. All my dogs get regularly marks in the 190's, and I don't train rigorusly (hehe save that for agility!) The issue with e collar training is that if your timing isn't exquisite you can ruin a dog for life. Also if you are educated in dog language (read Tuurid Rugas) all those 'happy' dogs with ecollars are really showing a LOT of stress and apeasment behaviours. One of the members of my club that uses ecollars has told me she thinks Rugas is bunk (its been scientifically looked at, and validated) but of course she says that, or looking at her own dogs she will have to admit what she is doing to them.

As to it being faster.... If a dog has 50 behaviours available to it at a given time, what is faster to punish 49 in hopes that the dog will chose the 50th or set the dog up to do the 50th and reward it. The ppl who use the e collars (on sporting dogs which are much more traditional for obed than JRTs) dog's are not learning any faster than mine who don't. I and my other positive trainers spend less time training, and get the same or better results. (and the ecollar trainers are good trainers with good timing etc)

The fact is the ecollar is aversive. Whether you shy away from the word pain (it hurts me but what can I say..) the dog is working to avoid the 'stim' so the dog must find the 'nicks' sufficiently unpleasant to suppress their behaviour. I have dogs because I love them, I train and trial them because I like to spend time with them. I have no desire to hurt my dogs, for any reason short of saving their life. If the orginal poster feels that this *must* be done..then get someone who knows how to train with ecollars and buy a top of the line model, so it is relaible. Really tho IMO you are much better off training with a positive trainer first. The worst that will happen is you will have a great relationship with your dog and gain a good understanding of learning theory. Then if you do need to progress to something more drastic, you will be able to find the right person to help you.

 

[Dreeza]

I have a friend at the Dog park that laughed when I got my E collar. He has been working with his dog for over a year, to get it to come under distraction and at a distance. When at any distance, his dog will blow him off and ignore his commands, pleas, begs, or whatever else he resorts to trying to get his dog to come. In the last couple of weeks, because my dog and his dog play and run together all the time, he will sheepishly ask me to recall my dog when he has to leave, and then usually his dog will follow mine back from the other end of the park, so he can leash it up and be on his way.

thats just a really dumb argument.

Its like the person who says they have been trying hard for 10 years to loose weight, and haven't been able to, so they "have" to get surgery to remove their excess weight, cause "nothing" else works....and then you ask them what method they are using, and it turns out they don't exercise, and are eating all the 'fad' diet foods that are "low-fat" (yet contain like 1000calories) and rewarding their 15 minute walk with a trip to McDonalds.

To that person, they may truly believe what they are doing is going to result in them losing weight...but science and experts show that it will not. It doesn't mean the person is stupid, they are just lacking the necessary education/information required to be successful. Just like you and your friend are....and you can throw me right in there with you and your friend...I totally lacked the proper info, which is part of the reason we turned to the E-collar.

 

[Spirit2010]

what other methods are there then? you cant get his attention, what so ever, i have tried watch me, no, collar corrections, his favourite toys, and favourite treats but you cant get his attention what so ever.

he will drag you in front of a lorry to chase a bird, if you let him off in the fields he is ok if he doesnt see something but last time he ran 1 to 2 miles away and couldnt find him because its as if you dont exist, i have trained and trained and trained. put his prey drive into balls etc that didnt work either. i would give his recall, 10 out of 10 on garden, at the park on the field! untill he sees an animal. he goes into a trance and there is no breaking it.

i am saving up for lessons but untill then im stuck. i cant stand the thought of not letting him off its not fare!

i think he would listen to an e collar because he wouldnt have a clue what it was, its sudden and it would break the trance long enough for a recall. i will do my research first etc and only would use it in extreme situations such as the farmer is going to shoot him because he is chasing hares on his land.

That is a problem that Hershey has, but we are working on that too.. And the shock collar, is just going to make it worse.. I think, never used one. Never will. But... hmm. Here try this website, there are some good articles in here too, others have had great advice to you too. Don't worry, he will get to the point trusting off leash. Its going to take work though, and quite a bit of time. But I still can't trust Hershey, because he goes under horse fences, cow fences, they chase him. lol (the animal that he wants to chase, chases him!) lol You'll get there, with others advice. Oh yes, does he like clicky noises such as the clicker?

 

[Doberluv]

Also if you are educated in dog language (read Tuurid Rugas) all those 'happy' dogs with ecollars are really showing a LOT of stress and apeasment behaviours.

Exactly! a very good book, congratulated by many behavioral scientists. Another great book is For The Love Of A Dog by Patricia McConnell, PhD. A lot of people think that a wagging tail is evidence of a happy dog. Dogs wag their tails in certain situations of stress. There is more to see than merely a wagging tail.

There is no urgent need to have a dog off leash or off a long line or in an unfenced area until he is reliable. He shouldn't be off leash anyway in a place where he can get into trouble.

Good post Dekka.

Let me ask you something Captbob: At what age did your dog have a reliable, consistant recall in most all situations?

 

[Dizzy]

I think we're too busy debating with catbob and have forgotton that hedwig needs help!!