'Dog Whisperer' being sued for injury of dog!

[whatszmatter]

Well, you can call it that. But in any venue, anything in life judgements have to be made. People judge and assess and form their own opinions. If no one did that, then where would we be? People sometimes say, "OH....you're being so judgemental." Why is it assumed that being judgemental is a bad thing? I think it's a good thing. Why would you want someone go along with something without assessing it and developing an opinion about it?

So, you're darn right, I for one and many others will certainly take shots at someone, whether or not they're in the limelight if we don't like or agree with their methods, if we have assessed, educated ourselves and come to the conclusion that something someone is doing is wrong in accordance to our beliefs. Why should someone sit there and be silent about something they believe in? Just tell me where this world would be if people had such a nature?

There are a few sheep-like people out there and there are probably more who are able to form their own opinions and in order to give their opinions about something they don't like (such as harsh punishment to an animal) they will have to give examples and part of those examples will naturally come in the form of showing up and talking about trainers who use such methods. And mentioning names of trainers will educate those who are educatable to steer clear of them, that is, if they see it the same way. If not, then not.

yeah, let's cherry pick and act like my post was about not questioning things or judging things. I was inferring that all people should be sheep.

just ignore the part about saying if you can't see lots of good info on that site as well.....well if you can't let's just say those people aren't capable of forming their own opinions, they've already heard "ed Frawley Bad, must stay away" "That person knows Ed, must be abusive, that person has a prong collar on their dog, must be abusive. That person just tugged on the leash, they must not know anything about dog training, their antiquated, and ignorant, plus they can't have a good working relationship with their dog."

You just said yourself you'd push a full grown dobe off you it was jumping on you. Thank you, I was starting to feel like maybe you did actually live in a perfect world where nothing but love and treats could be found. But their are instances when some "force" is necessary, pushing a dog off would probably insight more play, but that's not the point. You can train your butt off and you should, but there will still come a time when some force can and should be used with a lot of dogs. I for one made the decision, not to ignore it, but realize that dogs can and do learn very well from both ends of the spectrum. I prefer to have a full bag of tools when I go into a training situation.

 

[Doberluv]

You just said yourself you'd push a full grown dobe off you it was jumping on you. Thank you, I was starting to feel like maybe you did actually live in a perfect world where nothing but love and treats could be found.

I think I've said something to cause people to miss my point. Training should not be based on force IMO. I think an animal learns better by other means.

If a dog were attacking me viciously and I had my .38 on me, I'd shoot it. If a dog jumps up in greeting and he's claws are hurting me, I have to protect myself. It wouldn't take a severe punishment, but I'd have to stop his nails from gouging me by pushing or lifting his paws off of me.

Other training methods as I described would be employed to teach him his manners so that in the very near future, I wouldn't have a dog jumping on me anymore.

My bag of tricks for training would not include much in the way of force. My way of protecting myself from being hurt or knocked down would have to include some type of force, not necessarily in a punishing, harsh way, but to get the dog off of me.

I think there must be some "purposeful" misunderstanding me here. (?)

 

[Doberluv]

I know how big those paws and forearms are- I have some here, they are like hams attached to a baseball bat.

ROFLOL! What an apt metaphor.

 

[Dobiegurl]

There was no before the jumping. It was more like as soon as you come in you were on the floor.

Now once we passed the door phase, I anticipated his moves and what he was *plotting*. He doesn't jump anymore and that saved me frustatration along with him.

 

[Dobiegurl]

I think I've said something to cause people to miss my point. Training should not be based on force IMO. I think an animal learns better by other means.

If a dog were attacking me viciously and I had my .38 on me, I'd shoot it. If a dog jumps up in greeting and he's claws are hurting me, I have to protect myself. It wouldn't take a severe punishment, but I'd have to stop his nails from gouging me by pushing or lifting his paws off of me.

Other training methods as I described would be employed to teach him his manners so that in the very near future, I wouldn't have a dog jumping on me anymore.

My bag of tricks for training would not include much in the way of force. My way of protecting myself from being hurt or knocked down would have to include some type of force, not necessarily in a punishing, harsh way, but to get the dog off of me.

I think there must be some "purposeful" misunderstanding me here. (?)

Oh, I understand you know. No,training should not be the founded by forced or based on it. I totally agree that dogs learn better through motivation rather than force and a dog should NEVER be corrected for something it does not know or understand.

I just believe in certain situations force can and should be used. There is no way I would let my dog jump on me and hurt me, just because I didn't use a little force. I think motivation is a great way to train but some things cannot be avoided. Right now my 8 week old puppy is on treats and praise ONLY and he has learned so much in the little time that I've had him. Now, I'm not going to lie, I propably will use a prong when doing drive work, depending on how high his drive is. But I will not use the prong to *teach* him new things.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

No jumping is very important to me, because when my niece and nephew are here, I don't want 65 pounds of dog on a 30 pound little boy. All I had to do was a "NO!" and my dogs realized, "Hey, I wasn't supposed to do that." they got attention once they were calm.

And before I say this, I'd like everyone to know I am NOT picking sides. This is NOT directed at ANYONE in particular...it seems to me that if someone does not do things the way you think they should, you start mounting your high horse, and soon, you're prancing around. I think people need to respect other people's opinions. If I thought someone was abusing their dog, I don't think I would have a problem prancing around a bit. If someone were attacking my dogs, I would prance around a bit. It's wrong to judge, it's stupid to judge. Especially stupid when you don't even KNOW the people you're talking to, you've only "met" them on a message board.

 

[whatszmatter]

Oh, I understand you know. No,training should not be the founded by forced or based on it. I totally agree that dogs learn better through motivation rather than force and a dog should NEVER be corrected for something it does not know or understand.

I just believe in certain situations force can and should be used. There is no way I would let my dog jump on me and hurt me, just because I didn't use a little force. I think motivation is a great way to train but some things cannot be avoided. Right now my 8 week old puppy is on treats and praise ONLY and he has learned so much in the little time that I've had him. Now, I'm not going to lie, I propably will use a prong when doing drive work, depending on how high his drive is. But I will not use the prong to *teach* him new things.

prey drive work, i wouldn't use a prong on most dogs, some dogs really don't even notice its there but for the most part I wouldn't use it. Defensive work, when the dogs much older, yes its a great tool to get them to switch between prey and defense.

 

[Dobiegurl]

prey drive work, i wouldn't use a prong on most dogs, some dogs really don't even notice its there but for the most part I wouldn't use it. Defensive work, when the dogs much older, yes its a great tool to get them to switch between prey and defense.

Yeah, I plan on using it (if necessary) when I bring in the helper and once he is old enough to transition to defense drive.

 

[Doberluv]

Here's a book review from "Bark" Magazine of Ceasar's book:

"Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding & Correcting Common Dog Problems
By Cesar Millan, with Melissa Jo Peltier Harmony Books, 320 pp.,2006; $24.95 Reviewed by Pat Miller

Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the discerning reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The book's strength is as an autobiography of National Geographic's TV dog-trainer star, Cesar Millan. If you're curious about how Millan got where he is today, this book will tell you. If you're looking for significant help training your dog, however, look elsewhere.

Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-and consequences of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr. Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."

Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information, offering instead broad generalizations about projecting "calm- assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling "calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8, he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His "Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his . condition him to get quietly off the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."

Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy.

Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment building.

In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his "dominance ritual"; this technique-forcibly rolling a dog on his side or back and holding him there-is considered by many to be a dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on the science of behavior and learning.

Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and complex approach than simply asserting dominance.

Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.

Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his
pack of dogs every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern
California, followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at a time, on the streets around his training center. One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six hours a day exercising their dogs? How many can project "calm-assertive energy"? The danger of Cesar's Way is that it assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy.

In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life, where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are solidly built on a sturdy foundation and an understanding of how behavior really works."

 

[Saje]

I have two dogs that love to jump all over me. Both the girls. And the sit method really works. My pup will now come running up and sit in front of me and stare longingly at me. Nanook will do it too but she still forgets herself. Probably because she's higher strung and I got her as an adult. But if I'm consistent she won't jump up for weeks and weeks. I just can't let it slide with her. But that method really does work.

 

[RD]

Honestly, my biggest problem with positive methods before I switched to them was that I thought "positive" equals "permissive". I am not a permissive person - quite the opposite, really. However, even being a bit of a control freak, I can effectively use positive, reward-based training and avoid physical correction. Training using positive methods does not mean letting your dog walk all over you, or never telling them to stop bad behavior. All dog owners use some force with their animals, the difference is that most positive trainers don't do it in training.

If a fully grown, large dog jumps on me, you bet I'm going to shove him down. I think anyone would do that. It's what you do afterwards that makes a difference. Once all 4 feet are on the floor, I give a command and THEN share affection (that's what the dog wanted in the first place). Some people correct the dog once all 4 feet are on the floor - what's that teaching the dog?

Eh I'm rambling now. Sorry if I repeated what someone else said, I just skimmed this thread.

 

[Adrienne]

All I gotta say is Whoa, 20 pages! Lots of passionate people out there!

 

[Dobiegurl]

While I am not a fan of forced training I understand it. Unfortunately in my career I have used forced training and I now regret doing so. Maybe in some small way this article is written as an apology to my past dogs that deserved better than I gave them.

This is a direct quote from one of Ed Frawley's articles. Sounds to me like he knew in the past he did wrong and is no longer forcing dogs to do things. He explains how a correction and a forced comply are seperate things. Sounds like he does care about his dogs. But of course someone will find something wrong with that quote. Its a shame when someone tries to change, their rep will always be with them. But I for one am glad that he stepped up and realized that he could have treated his past dogs better and is changing his ways. Good for him.

While this article will explain the various methods used to force a dog to comply, I am only doing this with the hope that readers will recognize these methods if they see them in a local obedience class or if a professional trainer that’s hired to solve a problem uses too much force. I hope new trainers will be willing to walk away from these environments because they know there is a better way.

Continuation of the previous quote. If he was all for force then why would he want people to walk away from it. Why would he discredit his technique. Maybe because he's changed. Just like many of you older trainers.

Melanie, you have said many times that you learned through Koehler ways but you changed, right? And now you are a "good" trainer. But why can't Ed have a changing point in his life. Why does he have to be labeled "bad" for the rest of his training years. No, he propably is never going to be all postive but he is changing his forceful techniques. He will still correct but will not force a dog to comply.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

Okay, I have not thoroughly searched Ed Frawley's entire site, but he does still have some very aggressive methods on his site. And I don't agree with that. For example, choking a dog until it goes unconcious. For that he should get in BIG trouble. That IS animal abuse.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Hitting, Beating or Spanking

There is no place in dog training for hitting or spanking a dog with your hand, or a rolled up newspaper or fly swatter etc etc. Hitting a dog is going to make a dog hand shy. With some handler aggressive dogs hitting could trigger an attack.

A comment I need to make in this section is that there can be times when a dog is doing something inappropraite and not paying attention to the handler a tap on the back to redirect the dog back to the handler is appropriate. This tap is not used as a correction it's used to redirect attention - it's kind of like saying "Hey knock it off and look at me."

After writing this article I had a web board member post the following in a thread on having multiple dogs in one home - "This is very simple for them, behave, or get beaten." Needless to say there is no reason to ever beat a dog.There are always more effective ways to deal with problems.

Hmm, another quote from Ed. I don't know where you guys are getting the "he said spank your dog, or beat your dog" stuff from, but if that were true he would be a living contradiction. IF all the stuff people are saying about Ed are true, then he must have a split personality or something. That is too weird that he would suggest something, and then frown upon the same thing.

Just remember ALOT of his articles are old, look at the newer ones and you would see a big improvement in his training phylosophy.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Okay, I have not thoroughly searched Ed Frawley's entire site, but he does still have some very aggressive methods on his site. And I don't agree with that. For example, choking a dog until it goes unconcious. For that he should get in BIG trouble. That IS animal abuse.

Hmm, if my dog attacked me just for the hell of it, I would kill my dog. Is that animal abuse?? oh well.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm

I don't frigging care if you have an aggressive dog. You don't make it go unconcious. There are plenty of other ways to deter an aggressive dog. You DON'T have to abuse it, and IMO, from what I have read, Ed Frawley IS an evil man.

 

[Zoom]

I'm glad he's had a change of heart, but it must have been pretty darn recent, becase I only found his site about 2 years ago, and so far everytime I've checked it since then (admittedly not in the past 8 months) it's held the same type of heavy-handed advice.

If he has truely changed his methodology, then bravo to him! But you are right about one thing: reps do have a nasty habit of sticking around, especially when you've spent 30-odd years building it.

 

[Renee750il]

Remember what CreatureTeacher always said?

Never pay someone to do something to your dog that you'd prosecute them for doing to your children!

 

[Dobiegurl]

http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm

I don't frigging care if you have an aggressive dog. You don't make it go unconcious. There are plenty of other ways to deter an aggressive dog. You DON'T have to abuse it, and IMO, from what I have read, Ed Frawley IS an evil man.

First of all, he is talking about intense working dogs, not PETS. These are dogs who have been bred for dominance and confidence and BITE WORK. A dog bred for those things needs a clear understanding of what is unaccpetable. Hanging your dog is NOT a first resort and usually never have to do it, so long as you assert yourself as leader from the beginining. But there are dogs who will NOT submit to its handler and it is a danger for both the dog and the handler if the dog tries to *challenge* the handler. These dogs know there capabilities and know that they CAN take out the handler, therefore making them the leader of the pack. These dogs (not all working dogs, just those with REAL dominant issues) are thinking it in their head to kill or injure the handler, so the handler must act first. You must let them know that YOU are in charge and if thats what it takes, then so be it.

** I am talking about those dogs who, under no circumstances, respects the handler. Alot has to do with the upbringings of these puppies to adults but the problem must be fixed. Its either that or they get pts**