Cropping and docking illegal in New York
- Thread starter YodelDogs
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Lets face it . . . when it comes to this issue . . . just about everyone is baised. Its to a large extent a question of values. Which is one good reason why the law should not step in in the absence of compelling and scientifically valid evidence that the practice is extremely harmful. Which, um, doesn't appear to exist, since the practice is very old and the dogs seem fine. I don't really support cropping or docking, and hope the practices die out . . . but I have enough sense to realize that people see it differently, and those people are not stupid, evil, or crazy.
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I agree that people are not stupid or evil or crazy. I wanted to say that although I firmly oppose docking and support these laws I appreciate being able to have this debate in such a civil manner. It has made me much more dispassionate and objective on the subject to be able to discuss it like this. I feel it is a very positive thing to be able to carry on a discourse about controversial issues in such a way that allows one to gain understanding and insight into the opposing viewpoint.
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lol...I am biased which is why I have not stated my personal experiences as evidence against docking. I have been reading quite a bit of literature on the subject and formed an opinion. I have read quite a bit of the opposing viewpoint too, and have not found anything yet to substantially change my position on the subject. My point was in regards to research studies done on the subject. I am not putting anyone down for being biased-we all are.
So have you found any GOOD studies. I am not strongly pro.. except in working dogs (where it can be a matter of life and death) I am moderately pro with dewclaws... I see dewclaws ripped out on a semi regular basis.
But if you have any studies that actually show anything conclusive (I did find the tail wagging study interesting but really not that useful for anything other than the very very basis of a direction to go into)
I would find a survey study very interesting. Ask trainers and behaviourists how many dogs have dog dog interaction issues (out of how many they see) and then for them to describe various aspects of the dogs.... just to see if there is any real world issue going on.
But if you have any studies that actually show anything conclusive (I did find the tail wagging study interesting but really not that useful for anything other than the very very basis of a direction to go into)
I would find a survey study very interesting. Ask trainers and behaviourists how many dogs have dog dog interaction issues (out of how many they see) and then for them to describe various aspects of the dogs.... just to see if there is any real world issue going on.
Actually, I would too. Out of the two dogs I see Jack interacting with the greatest variety of dogs. He is *extremely* expressive with both his tail and ears and I often wonder if he would be hindered in communication if he did not have them (or they were not in their original shape).
Before anyone gets all bothered I'm not saying that dogs with crops and docks don't communicate well or anything like that. I just think that certainly Jack can't be the only dog that uses these parts for communication, so I wonder how dogs that are cropped or docked get around that.
Before anyone gets all bothered I'm not saying that dogs with crops and docks don't communicate well or anything like that. I just think that certainly Jack can't be the only dog that uses these parts for communication, so I wonder how dogs that are cropped or docked get around that.
Well how to wild canines get along with stiff pricked ears? I don't see cropped dogs (except for the crazy remove all the ear type of cropping) having much of an issue.
Now I WILL say I have met more labs that have communication problems.. and they have full tails. (though it could be solid black issues). I think it was Ian Dunbar who found that black dogs 'nose licked' more often when communicating with other dogs.. as that was still very noticable.
I can tell you JRT tails and cocker tails are very expressive... And what a tail is 'saying' can be different depending on what the rest of the dog is saying. A wagging tail does not always mean happy/friendly. If the rest of the dog is stiff, head erect, on the toes, ears foward.. that is not a dog to approach. If the dog is wagging its tail and its ears are back, the posture is loose, lips are relaxed the dog is happy. If the dog is wagging its tail and its head is down, ears are flat and back is hunched its fearful/appeasing...
In all those senarios the dogs tail can be doing a slow easy looking wag... but they are all very different 'moods'. I haven't come across any canine professional that states that the tail is the primary means of canine communication. It is like saying humans communicate with their eyes so people who wear glasses are hindered. Yes humans use eyes to communicate.. but we use so much more..
Now I WILL say I have met more labs that have communication problems.. and they have full tails. (though it could be solid black issues). I think it was Ian Dunbar who found that black dogs 'nose licked' more often when communicating with other dogs.. as that was still very noticable.
I can tell you JRT tails and cocker tails are very expressive... And what a tail is 'saying' can be different depending on what the rest of the dog is saying. A wagging tail does not always mean happy/friendly. If the rest of the dog is stiff, head erect, on the toes, ears foward.. that is not a dog to approach. If the dog is wagging its tail and its ears are back, the posture is loose, lips are relaxed the dog is happy. If the dog is wagging its tail and its head is down, ears are flat and back is hunched its fearful/appeasing...
In all those senarios the dogs tail can be doing a slow easy looking wag... but they are all very different 'moods'. I haven't come across any canine professional that states that the tail is the primary means of canine communication. It is like saying humans communicate with their eyes so people who wear glasses are hindered. Yes humans use eyes to communicate.. but we use so much more..
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Tail docking... not completely against. Until they ban circumcision, however, it is ridiculous to ban tail docking.
Cropping... done at much older age. I don't like it. At all. I always feel sad to see a cropped dog. Natural ears are so much more expressive, cuter, and no painful *cosmetic* surgery to go through as a pup.
I'm not sure I'd really mind all that much if it were made illegal, though I could understand the concerns about the motives behind it and those pushing these bills.
Cropping... done at much older age. I don't like it. At all. I always feel sad to see a cropped dog. Natural ears are so much more expressive, cuter, and no painful *cosmetic* surgery to go through as a pup.
I'm not sure I'd really mind all that much if it were made illegal, though I could understand the concerns about the motives behind it and those pushing these bills.
I'm really not against banning either...however, that being said, I very much dislike cropping and find it to be a useless practice now-a-days. And yes, I have owned a cropped breed (a dobe) and it was a horrible process, though we followed step-by-step ear taping, with help from the breeder, cleaned, disinfected daily and were very dilligent about the whole process, my dog was in pain...from the sutures, and the ear infections that followed with posting. Hell, I've had stitches, and they **** well hurt even a week later - they throb and are uncomfortable. You (not directed at anyone specific) can't tell me that a pup with cropped ears is feeling nothing. I find it a bit of a barbaric procedure, with no good reason for it but for looks (show ring is all it's done for in this day and age). And the crop on my dobe was done by a very well-know cropping vet in our area - he'd done hundreds of them, so was not inexperienced.
I will admit, the dobes look very distinguished when cropped, but I'm just not a fan, and wouldn't want to have to go through it again.
Docking, well, I've had three docked dogs, and one undocked. I really don't have issues with docking as it is a completely different procedure.
However, I can say, with fist hand observations, that some dogs (especially cropped/docked together) do have difficulties communicating. Yes, they can compensate for that with other body parts as well as the feelings that they are radiating at that moment, however, the tail and ears do play an important role in communication and no one can tell me otherwise.
Dews, I've had three with dews, one without. Never an issue - and I have one dog that charges through underbrush like a chicken with his head cut off (a large drooling chicken) and he has never encountered a problem. However, all my dogs had very tight dew-claws, and I can see removing those with loose dews that just flop around - those are just waiting for disaster to happen.
I believe both sides here are valid in their points of view, and I don't think either side is crazy. I wouldn't support a ban but, some breeders don't give personal choice to those looking for a "natural" cropped or docked breed, so to say just don't do it isn't fair nor is it fair to say don't get that breed .... people may like everything about that breed, but for the cosmetic changes, so in essence, what is being said is that they need to look elsewhere for a different breed because they can't have their "natural" breed of choice? Not fair.
For most, it is just the show ring that requires the procedures, and it's silly to me that dobes, danes, boxers etc. who have natural ears are rarely put up. All just my own opinions
thought I'd jump on board
I will admit, the dobes look very distinguished when cropped, but I'm just not a fan, and wouldn't want to have to go through it again.
Docking, well, I've had three docked dogs, and one undocked. I really don't have issues with docking as it is a completely different procedure.
However, I can say, with fist hand observations, that some dogs (especially cropped/docked together) do have difficulties communicating. Yes, they can compensate for that with other body parts as well as the feelings that they are radiating at that moment, however, the tail and ears do play an important role in communication and no one can tell me otherwise.
Dews, I've had three with dews, one without. Never an issue - and I have one dog that charges through underbrush like a chicken with his head cut off (a large drooling chicken) and he has never encountered a problem. However, all my dogs had very tight dew-claws, and I can see removing those with loose dews that just flop around - those are just waiting for disaster to happen.
I believe both sides here are valid in their points of view, and I don't think either side is crazy. I wouldn't support a ban but, some breeders don't give personal choice to those looking for a "natural" cropped or docked breed, so to say just don't do it isn't fair nor is it fair to say don't get that breed .... people may like everything about that breed, but for the cosmetic changes, so in essence, what is being said is that they need to look elsewhere for a different breed because they can't have their "natural" breed of choice? Not fair.
For most, it is just the show ring that requires the procedures, and it's silly to me that dobes, danes, boxers etc. who have natural ears are rarely put up. All just my own opinions
thought I'd jump on board Ah yes, Kerri, I realize that docking is done very early, just pointing out that the statement is an unfair one to make (not that you made it) to say don't get the breed you love because you want it natural.
I will point out, however, that a good, well I'll be generous and say 80-90% of pups from most breeders are going to pet homes, where the procedures of cropping and docking seem to be completely unnecessary. But hey, I'm not against docking (and I wouldn't ban cropping, I just don't agree with it) - I've had three different "tailless" dogs, so I really can't be against it, and if my bulldogge had a tail I think three quarters of my house would be destroyed
I will point out, however, that a good, well I'll be generous and say 80-90% of pups from most breeders are going to pet homes, where the procedures of cropping and docking seem to be completely unnecessary. But hey, I'm not against docking (and I wouldn't ban cropping, I just don't agree with it) - I've had three different "tailless" dogs, so I really can't be against it, and if my bulldogge had a tail I think three quarters of my house would be destroyed
oh i agree... but at 3 days how do you know which 80% are going to be pets... I have had people ask me about getting a non docked JRT from me. I have no ethical issue with selling a tailed JRT. But I can't tell at 3 days which pup is going to be right for which buyer. (Hence all the dekklets got done.. even if one is going to Bill and is going to be strictly a pet..I had no idea at 3 days which ones were pet quality and which ones aren't)
I guess I'll chime in on this now that it's turned.
I've seen Rotti pups tails docked at 3 days old, done by the vet I worked for. Dewclaws at the same time. As soon as it was over, they didn't seem a bit worse for the wear and since I knew the people whose dogs they were, I got to see them grow up, no issues with the healing or anything.
Lily has natural ears, and still has dewclaws...Lacey has no dewclaws and obviously natural ears and tail. Now, I don't see that Lacey, with prick ears cannot communicate any less effectively than Lily can with her natural floppy ears. Same goes for my friends Dobe, who has many ear expressions and tail expressions even though he's docked and cropped.
I have qualms with making docking and cropping illegal. If it's made illegal, it will still be done in garages with box cutters/scissors/whatever...and that's CRUEL. Let it stay legal and be in the hands of professionals, especially the ear cropping. Nothing looks worse than a bad cropping job done by a dumbass with a box-cutter.
I've seen Rotti pups tails docked at 3 days old, done by the vet I worked for. Dewclaws at the same time. As soon as it was over, they didn't seem a bit worse for the wear and since I knew the people whose dogs they were, I got to see them grow up, no issues with the healing or anything.
Lily has natural ears, and still has dewclaws...Lacey has no dewclaws and obviously natural ears and tail. Now, I don't see that Lacey, with prick ears cannot communicate any less effectively than Lily can with her natural floppy ears. Same goes for my friends Dobe, who has many ear expressions and tail expressions even though he's docked and cropped.
I have qualms with making docking and cropping illegal. If it's made illegal, it will still be done in garages with box cutters/scissors/whatever...and that's CRUEL. Let it stay legal and be in the hands of professionals, especially the ear cropping. Nothing looks worse than a bad cropping job done by a dumbass with a box-cutter.