I'd heard of ear pinch, but toe pinch?

WTH???
YouTube - Introduction to Force Fetch from a Stationary Tether

This video is from the 80's, someone please tell me people don't train forced retrieves like this anymore!

In the Service Dog Training world, more trainers train with force retrieve methods than not. The industry's slowly changing - SLOWLY - but it's definately still extremely prevalant.

Of course my organization doesn't do this.

I think a lot of old-school sporting retriever trainers also still use forced retrieves, but there are fewer and fewer sporting retrievers these days. There are also a few big-name trainers who use positive reinforcement for retrievers, and they're becomming more and more influential.

How upsetting.... but yes, this still exists.

Go to any sporting goods store that carries hunting stuff and you are nearly guaranteed to find at least one training video that still cheerfully employs this method. I was in Cabela's one day when one of those were on and the person I was with had to bodily drag me out of that section. I had lost it and was ranting and pointing out everything that was wrong with that video and starting to get some interesting looks from people around.

The lab board I used to frequent is still very heavy on this type of training, which sort of went right along with most of them were very pro-Milan in regular training as well. i got into a number of arguments with hunters about how they could get just as reliable--if not more--and much happier dogs if they would quite associating training with pain.

I have new respect for labs, that's for sure...
My dane boy would have taken exactly 3 of those toe pinches, and on the third he would have done a lovely "hold" on the guy's face.

I only watched teh first 25 seconds, that poor dog looks SO stressed out!

I don't remember where that other thread is but someone needs to post it here if they do. Geez just reading those words makes steam come out of my ears.

What other thread?

I'm trying to think of when "Don't Shoot the Dog" came out - was it in the 80's or 90's?
I get people thinking "its the only way" or simply not knowing any better - sort of...

But even so isn't it possible to teach a forced retrieve through play and natural instinct too?

You gotta wonder why in this day and age, with so many reliably trained dogs using gentler methods, why do people still insist on such barbaric practices?

YouTube - Heritage Kennels - Junior Dogs - Force Fetch
Oh, I get it now.

Of course it is. And even in dogs with no "natural instinct," you can shape the retrieve using clicker training.

I've heard service dog trainers say that the forced retrieve is the only way to let the dog know that he MUST retrieve when we tell him to. And because it can be based on life-and-death situations, you have to use this method to make sure the dog will do it.

FWIW, I think it's really important for us as trainers to be educated in methods other than the ones we use, so that when we discuss these methods, we'll be prepared to discuss the pros and cons of their method versus our method. So I'm happy we're having this discussion, and I hope we all learn something from it.

Because it works, it works quickly, and consistently with just about any dog.

I don't like the forced retrieve as a trainer but I have a hard time arguing with it's results compared to a lot of the motivational retrieve trained dogs I've met. There is a reason it has hung around so long and while those two vids show the worst of the worst there are other vids with a far more consistent message to tell the dog about how they should retrieve, how they should grip, what objects they MUST fetch, and how they must behave once they have that item.

It's less about game and more about the business at hand of doing a job. Most motivational retrieve dogs I've met either have zero control over how they grip their item (yes it matters in retrievers)or dedication to the retrieve in less than appealing conditions.

So please folks who think the forced retrieve is always wrong, show me a better way, with results that are just as good.

Define "results"

Not being snarky - just curious.
'Cause I've had this conversation before about reliability, and a) there is no such thing as 100% reliability, and b) we all apparently define it differently.

Results:
The average hunter is not a dog trainer.
Retrievers are very, very useful hunting tools.
Retrievers are trained either by hunters, who are not usually dog people, or sent off to trainers.


A method that allows non trainers to get a dog that retrieves as close to 100% as possible.

A method that allows a dog to be trained by someone else as quickly as possible.

Plus, it is very difficult to find positive hunting training where as this has been there, since at least this video from the 80s.

The results I'm looking for:
Consistently grabs the dumbbell in the middle no matter what the material covering the thing is. I've never had a dog yet that is leaping for joy at the metal covered bars.

The dog handles game soft mouthed.

The dog doesn't refuse a retrieve. Even if the retrieve is long, the weather sucks, the surf is high, and the dog can't see the duck or bumper.

The dog has a consistent controlled finish.

The dog is trial/hunt ready for a retrieve under distractions.

With the exception of a handful of schutzhund dogs I know about almost every finished dog I know of has been taught using a variation of the forced retrieve. It doesn't mean it can't be done with entirely motivational methods it just is that some dogs just don't get it where nearly every dog I've met with it's marbles in a line and a trainer who knew what the heck they were doing was able to learn what was being asked using the forced retrieve. It was usually a faster learning period as well and imo didn't cause lingering discomfort beyond the initial work.

Like I said, as a trainer I hate it. It's not how I like to teach dogs but until there is a better way with a consistent result I don't think it should be immediately dismissed out of hand.

Perhaps if your retriever isn't very good at retrieving this should be fixed by working on natural talent, vs breeding dogs who aren't terribly into retriveing and causing them pain till they do it reliably.

Luckily with terriers you can't 'make' them do their job. You have to breed dogs who want to work. Perhaps if lab breeders took a good look at their breeding strategies then people wouldn't need to torture their dogs into doing a behaviour the breed is bred for.

Technically, no.
Because that wouldn't be a forced retrieve, just a retrieve.

:hail:

'Course this still doesn't really help service dogs.... They're already being bred for dozens of other traits, that a natural retrieve is kinda low on the list. BUT they're also lucky enough to get trained by professional trainers, who IN THEORY should know a lot more about how to train without force, than the average hunting dog trainer.

I think the problem boiles down to: breeders are spending more time trying to breed dogs that can tolerate forced retrieve training, than they are spending trying to breed dogs that don't need forced retrieve training.

BTW, I don't use forced retrieve training. At my organization, we use our own variation of Shirley Chong's retrieve protocol. It DOES take a long time to train, especially considering we use a lot of non-retriever breeds (we have a collie mix right now that we're having particular difficulties with!), but I'm pretty sure the non-retriever breeds would not make it through the forced retrieve training either.

I would agree with you here.

I would argue that you can get equal results with both methods, but the motivational retrieve training is generally going to take a lot longer.

My problem is that I'm just personally, morally opposed to hurting a dog to get it to do what I as a human want as recreation. I mean yeah, hunting dogs serve a purpose, but most of the hunters who do this training with their dogs don't SURVIVE off the animals the dogs retrieve. And yeah, service dogs surve an EXTREMELY important purpose, but ultimately they're also a luxury.

I'm inclined to agree with Dekka saying that if the retrievers are having problems with willingness to retrieve, the issue probably lies in with breeding and inborn working ability than the training method used.

As an example, there was Charlie. Wirehaired pointing griffon, though the breed is well known for strong retrieving drives.

He'd retrieve ANYTHING through pretty much any terrain, until he dropped from exhaustion. It didn't matter if the ocean was freezing and it was snowing out, it didn't matter if it was 30 feet inside a patch of himalayan blackberries with inch long thorns, it didn't matter if it was a bird or a clam underwater at high tide or a log thrown off a waterfall. He'd bring it back and it would be intact. We honestly didn't do anything with him other than play train. He had a strong drive to bring us birds. Once he found us a dead horned owl which he brought in completely intact and is now mounted on display in the Burke Museum.

If we'd known better how to shape/refine that drive, he would have been awesome at trials. As it was he was more than capable as an around the farm working/hunting buddy. He never balked at a retrieve we asked of him, no matter what it was. Robert even had a throwing tomahawk that he trained Charlie to retrieve so he didn't have to walk to the target each time and get it himself. :rofl1:

I know for a fact that a toe pinch would not work on a dog like him. You could cut his foot off and he'd act oblivious. That dog was the most stoic, impervious to pain sort of creature that has ever walked this earth. The breed club and breed books explicitly state that they do not do well with aversives because of their extremely high pain threshold. Since they have such a high level of natural ability and drive it isn't needed anyway.

The problem with moving beyond a force fetch for retrieving dogs isn't fetching, exactly. Its the whole thing.

Now you have a lack of competing ideology to something that promises to cure hard mouth, soft mouth, negate having to breed for mouth, make sure the dog comes back, and later on keep the dog lining straight.