I'd heard of ear pinch, but toe pinch?

*blackrose

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I had just typed up a big long reply and then my session timed out and I lost it. %*&$%$ $(#$*^.

So, nevermind. I don't feel like writing it out again. lol
 

smkie

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I have seen the ear pinch used by so many. I know why it is, it is fast and effective, seriously if someone caused you pain to open your mouth...just reading the title to this thread makes my blood boil. It's not necessary. WE trained field competitive labs and goldens, my boss did so from 1935 to 1990 something so imho it is a repulsive.

So is the way I have seen it used by one man who if life would let me I would go at him with a cattle prod and his **** pliers. I ran my year old dog as a test dog in an open all age stake and he did it so well they scratched the test. I coudln't have been prouder and I would never betray his trust in me by teaching him in such a barbaric manner. Victor certainly learned hold it without. He too does it out of love and trust in my leadership.
 

Danefied

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I have seen the ear pinch used by so many. I know why it is, it is fast and effective, seriously if someone caused you pain to open your mouth...just reading the title to this thread makes my blood boil. It's not necessary. WE trained field competitive labs and goldens, my boss did so from 1935 to 1990 something so imho it is a repulsive.

So is the way I have seen it used by one man who if life would let me I would go at him with a cattle prod and his **** pliers. I ran my year old dog as a test dog in an open all age stake and he did it so well they scratched the test. I coudln't have been prouder and I would never betray his trust in me by teaching him in such a barbaric manner. Victor certainly learned hold it without. He too does it out of love and trust in my leadership.
Read an interesting article and your post reminded me of it:
http://www.fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php
The Hidden Danger in Force Fetch Training
The hidden danger in force fetch training is that it compensates for behaviors that should be developed by selective breeding. This idea occurred to after a few years of working with many puppies of American Field Trial breeding and many puppies of British Field Trial breeding. There is a glaring behavioral difference between the two genetic pools of puppies. A much higher percentage of British puppies automatically deliver to hand, than do American puppies of field trial breeding.

You don't have to look far to find the reason. The British very seldom force fetch train their dogs. This training practice is not widely accepted or practiced in England. Therefore, in that breeding population, soft mouth and delivery to hand is developed by selective breeding. Dogs that are not soft mouthed or that don't deliver to hand, are not successful field dogs and thus tend not to be hunted or campaigned in field trials. Thus they also tend not to be bred to for good working stock. In England, selective breeding is still operating to produce soft mouthed retrievers.

In the US working retriever population, training is operating to produce soft mouthed retrievers. Selective breeding for soft mouth and delivery to hand has been replaced by training to develop these traits.

Since fetch training has become a general and nearly universal practice in the training of field trial dogs, we are camouflaging one of the major traits that molded the retrieving breeds through selective breeding of hundreds of generations. When you cover up a primary trait with training, then it no longer has value for selective breeding. Today when you look at a prospective sire for breeding, you can't tell whether his soft mouth and delivery to hand came from his ancestors or from his trainer.

One of the primary traits for which retrievers have been selectively bred since entering into a partnership with the sportsman has been delivering to gently to hand an undamaged bird. With the widespread practice of force fetch training we have effectively reversed years and years of breeding selection for soft mouth retrievers.
Just more to think about...
 

lizzybeth727

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The hidden danger in force fetch training is that it compensates for behaviors that should be developed by selective breeding. This idea occurred to after a few years of working with many puppies of American Field Trial breeding and many puppies of British Field Trial breeding. There is a glaring behavioral difference between the two genetic pools of puppies. A much higher percentage of British puppies automatically deliver to hand, than do American puppies of field trial breeding.
Interesting.....

And also pretty much the same point I made about two pages back:
In that case, one wonders why, after thousands of years of breeding for specific jobs, one needs to use aversive methods (or any methods at all) to get the dog to do what he's been "made" to do.
 

Danefied

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Interesting.....

And also pretty much the same point I made about two pages back:
Yes, I thought of you and what you had said when I read that :) It makes a lot of sense to me! As much as I believe in the power of training, at some point you have to concede that there's only so far you can pound a square peg in to a round hole :D

Though granted, I should probably have just started a new thread....
 

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