Awww, crap. I have the opportunity to buy a puppy...
- Thread starter GlassOnion
- Start date
No, it's NOT suddenly ok, And the SAME ones that are here right now "roasting" are the very same that would be attempting to do so to a newbie, they are just going about it in a nicer manner because GO IS a long time member.
GO must decide if this person is a BYB, not you, not me, and not the rest of the forum. This idea that many of you seem to have that if a dog doesn't have titles then it isn't worthy to breed is BS IMO, but it's just that, MY opinion. GO is going to be taking care of this pup, he is going to be paying for any care the dog needs, and he will be training the dog as well. The ultimate decision is GO's.
I don't like the nasty turn this thread is heading, some things that are being said seem to be getting off track. Please keep the thread on track, and try to refrain from repeating the same old things that has already filled so many pages please............GO will never be able to read it all if we don't
GO must decide if this person is a BYB, not you, not me, and not the rest of the forum. This idea that many of you seem to have that if a dog doesn't have titles then it isn't worthy to breed is BS IMO, but it's just that, MY opinion. GO is going to be taking care of this pup, he is going to be paying for any care the dog needs, and he will be training the dog as well. The ultimate decision is GO's.
I don't like the nasty turn this thread is heading, some things that are being said seem to be getting off track. Please keep the thread on track, and try to refrain from repeating the same old things that has already filled so many pages please............GO will never be able to read it all if we don't
You know I never said they NEED titles. But if there is minimal health testing and no titles of anykind and no guarantees... what makes these pups any better than those dying in shelters?
Now IF these dogs really are used for police work.. that is better than many a title. Real work trumps games. But with so many dogs who are very similar on deaths door, how can we support the breeding of more mediocre dogs?
This is just my opinion. But then that is why I only breed ever few years and foster as work with rescue as much as I can. I will never breed dogs that are the same as those who are lounging in shelters or waiting as fosters.
Now IF these dogs really are used for police work.. that is better than many a title. Real work trumps games. But with so many dogs who are very similar on deaths door, how can we support the breeding of more mediocre dogs?
This is just my opinion. But then that is why I only breed ever few years and foster as work with rescue as much as I can. I will never breed dogs that are the same as those who are lounging in shelters or waiting as fosters.
Edit: Didn't mean to hit the Submit button, still going through the pages:
The puppies are raised in doors. For one, it's entirely too hot outside for the puppies and they would drown in the pool he has in the kennel for the adults.
Parents. Doesn't do much good to x-ray a puppy for HD (not to my knowledge, at least, but I don't know all the ins and outs of the process). And the x-ray shouldn't be too much I wouldn't think. My vet charges $70 for two views, which is all you'd need I'd imagine (lateral and ventral).
Like I said it was an accidental breeding, he wasn't planning to have 6 puppies hanging around at the moment. Guy just went through a divorce too so that's one more thing he has to deal with (or doesn't want to deal with).
Uh, no I wouldn't buy them if they're not health tested (thus me asking about the health records and HD). Yes I would buy them if the dogs don't 'do' anything. My dogs don't 'do' anything in the way of agility or show and they're perfectly fine and, to my knowledge, happy as a clam.
No, they are not. The puppies are inside. They were outside playing with the family when I went by, they aren't in the kennel. I've walked by and looked and they're no where out there, just the parents.
This is not an impulse buy. I have the means and the ability to acquire them and have been wanting a GSD for quite some time now. It's an opportunity, not an impulse.
That's what I'm looking for with this thread but all I'm getting is flak.
My definition of a BYB I suppose would be one that has two good dogs to their knowledge and breeds them. Kind of like this guy did. A puppy mill is where they do it purely for profit.
I've no idea if he's X-rayed before or not. The vet I go to is a pretty good one and I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't recommended it to him in the past. Though I'm not sure at what age HD disposition shows up (the mother is 1.5, the father is 5). Again, I'm going to ask (probably going to walk over there soon as I get done replying to all this stuff).
Sometimes it's just poor genetics coming out. Or physical damage. You can have stellar parents but the dog still have problems. I'm only 22 and have to wear hearing aids and I think I come from pretty good stock...and deafness in a dog isn't the end of the world. They can rely heavily on smell. Same for blindness. Lay down a 'trail' of lavender or something, and get the dog to associate that with where they need to go (positive reinforcement of the smell) and the dog will do just fine.
Yes. No. And I didn't plan to have anyone here stop me from buying the dog, I just came for advice on what I should ask/check into.
Yes, I know BYB is a problem and I see the results of it pretty much every day that I'm at work, or helping out at the shelter. BUT to my current knowledge this is not your typical BYB, but actually a genuine accidental breeding of two good dogs. You can paint BYBs all in one color if you'd like but to me, there's degrees of it.
This. I would never choose to breed either of my current dogs (though Leo is a full blooded labrador) but that's just because I've no interest in it. I think Leo would make a good sire in someone else's hands but he's missing a few crucial parts, so the point is nil. Anyhow, he doesn't have his titles, nor do any 'work' aside from playing with us when we go outside/for walks/etc.
Does have severe separation anxiety but I don't know that that's genetic, unless it's a psychological trait that's caused from a genetic defect/hormonal imbalance (which could be the result of the neuter).
The puppies are raised in doors. For one, it's entirely too hot outside for the puppies and they would drown in the pool he has in the kennel for the adults.
Parents. Doesn't do much good to x-ray a puppy for HD (not to my knowledge, at least, but I don't know all the ins and outs of the process). And the x-ray shouldn't be too much I wouldn't think. My vet charges $70 for two views, which is all you'd need I'd imagine (lateral and ventral).
Like I said it was an accidental breeding, he wasn't planning to have 6 puppies hanging around at the moment. Guy just went through a divorce too so that's one more thing he has to deal with (or doesn't want to deal with).
Uh, no I wouldn't buy them if they're not health tested (thus me asking about the health records and HD). Yes I would buy them if the dogs don't 'do' anything. My dogs don't 'do' anything in the way of agility or show and they're perfectly fine and, to my knowledge, happy as a clam.
No, they are not. The puppies are inside. They were outside playing with the family when I went by, they aren't in the kennel. I've walked by and looked and they're no where out there, just the parents.
This is not an impulse buy. I have the means and the ability to acquire them and have been wanting a GSD for quite some time now. It's an opportunity, not an impulse.
That's what I'm looking for with this thread but all I'm getting is flak.
My definition of a BYB I suppose would be one that has two good dogs to their knowledge and breeds them. Kind of like this guy did. A puppy mill is where they do it purely for profit.
I've no idea if he's X-rayed before or not. The vet I go to is a pretty good one and I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't recommended it to him in the past. Though I'm not sure at what age HD disposition shows up (the mother is 1.5, the father is 5). Again, I'm going to ask (probably going to walk over there soon as I get done replying to all this stuff).
Sometimes it's just poor genetics coming out. Or physical damage. You can have stellar parents but the dog still have problems. I'm only 22 and have to wear hearing aids and I think I come from pretty good stock...and deafness in a dog isn't the end of the world. They can rely heavily on smell. Same for blindness. Lay down a 'trail' of lavender or something, and get the dog to associate that with where they need to go (positive reinforcement of the smell) and the dog will do just fine.
Yes. No. And I didn't plan to have anyone here stop me from buying the dog, I just came for advice on what I should ask/check into.
Yes, I know BYB is a problem and I see the results of it pretty much every day that I'm at work, or helping out at the shelter. BUT to my current knowledge this is not your typical BYB, but actually a genuine accidental breeding of two good dogs. You can paint BYBs all in one color if you'd like but to me, there's degrees of it.
This. I would never choose to breed either of my current dogs (though Leo is a full blooded labrador) but that's just because I've no interest in it. I think Leo would make a good sire in someone else's hands but he's missing a few crucial parts, so the point is nil. Anyhow, he doesn't have his titles, nor do any 'work' aside from playing with us when we go outside/for walks/etc.
Does have severe separation anxiety but I don't know that that's genetic, unless it's a psychological trait that's caused from a genetic defect/hormonal imbalance (which could be the result of the neuter).
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Hey look, she was freaking agreeing that it shouldn't matter what we care about. Its about what GO is willing to do/live with.
I agree with Coop. There was no need for Kenya to be dragged into this thread, and everyone is suddenly on their high horse because GO is going to be a vet. How many people here know FOR 100% certain where their vet got their dogs/pets??? Hmmm??? I'm betting the number of people is LOW.
I agree with Coop. There was no need for Kenya to be dragged into this thread, and everyone is suddenly on their high horse because GO is going to be a vet. How many people here know FOR 100% certain where their vet got their dogs/pets??? Hmmm??? I'm betting the number of people is LOW.
So.. its ok if the number is low? I know where my vet techs and vets got their dogs. Its not always pretty, and makes me sad. Do you know how many times I was asked what Dekka was bred too????
As I said IF the guy isn't on the up and up...... There is the possibility he could be.. more research needs to be done.
IMO YES it matters that he is going to be someone people take advice from.
As I said IF the guy isn't on the up and up...... There is the possibility he could be.. more research needs to be done.
IMO YES it matters that he is going to be someone people take advice from.
T
Sorry, GO, I thought I read somewhere that the dogs aren't allowed indoors.
That said.. well, the decision is yours, I just hope it is a responsible one. IF they are a BYB that has breed or will breed in the future without health testing, I agree with others - educate them and then get far, far away. If the dog's lines are what they say they are and they've been health tested, or plan on health testing for any future litter.. well, then it is just up to you and who you feel comfortable supporting. You just have to remember, being in the veterinary community, albeit maybe only a student, people will and do fairly hold you to a higher standard in your practices of dog ownership, including where and how you obtain them from.
Best wishes to you.
That said.. well, the decision is yours, I just hope it is a responsible one. IF they are a BYB that has breed or will breed in the future without health testing, I agree with others - educate them and then get far, far away. If the dog's lines are what they say they are and they've been health tested, or plan on health testing for any future litter.. well, then it is just up to you and who you feel comfortable supporting. You just have to remember, being in the veterinary community, albeit maybe only a student, people will and do fairly hold you to a higher standard in your practices of dog ownership, including where and how you obtain them from.
Best wishes to you.
Nothing, not one thing makes them better than the ones dying in shelters. But then, I don't think YOUR new puppies are better, MY dogs are better, or ANYONE'S dogs here are better.
They ALL need love, they ALL need homes, they ALL need a family of their own.
I know that you probably meant "better" in the sense of probable health and genetics, but that isn't always the case either.
I have been around the net and back. I have seen so many cry out about their "well bred" dog (with a pedigree to prove it) that cost them hundreds into the thousands dying of cancer, DCM, seizures, the list goes on and on. You may or may not believe that I used to believe that only "well bred" dogs were the way to go, I have since changed my mind. It might be worse with Dobes, IDK, but I have definitely changed my mind. I do still support health testing, I think it's important, but all the rest of it you can keep, JMO.
They ALL need love, they ALL need homes, they ALL need a family of their own.
I know that you probably meant "better" in the sense of probable health and genetics, but that isn't always the case either.
I have been around the net and back. I have seen so many cry out about their "well bred" dog (with a pedigree to prove it) that cost them hundreds into the thousands dying of cancer, DCM, seizures, the list goes on and on. You may or may not believe that I used to believe that only "well bred" dogs were the way to go, I have since changed my mind. It might be worse with Dobes, IDK, but I have definitely changed my mind. I do still support health testing, I think it's important, but all the rest of it you can keep, JMO.
F
I think the biggest thing for me is, accidental or not, this guy planned to breed these dogs anyways, according to your first post:
Considering my vet devotes his life to rescue? I do know. He has 2 standard poodles that came from a breeder. It's a reputable breeder, full health testing, champion show-dogs, along with agility and obedience. And my vet does the same with the poodles, as they have mutliple agility, obedience and rally titles on them. The rest, are rescues.
Guess I'm the odd one out, knowing where my vet's dogs came from. No idea what my vet has to do with supporting a BYB though.
Considering my vet devotes his life to rescue? I do know. He has 2 standard poodles that came from a breeder. It's a reputable breeder, full health testing, champion show-dogs, along with agility and obedience. And my vet does the same with the poodles, as they have mutliple agility, obedience and rally titles on them. The rest, are rescues.
Guess I'm the odd one out, knowing where my vet's dogs came from. No idea what my vet has to do with supporting a BYB though.
What I meant by better (at least in my own breed) is all over better. Not just a better or healthier pet. The dogs I have fostered that have been placed have turned out to be fabulous and much loved pets. (with the exception of one.. who is less than fabulous.. but still much loved) JRTs are a pretty healthy breed, so even the badly bred ones seem a pretty healthy bunch. But they wouldn't excel in working, aren't structurally build to stay sound with much exercise etc etc. You can have well bred JRTs who are still fantastic pets.. but who also are built to last. Why breed more dogs who are merely good pets? There are tonnes of dogs dying every day that would make good pets. Do they need to be passing on their genes? No. I feel that if I was to breed 'just good pets' I would in essence be killing those dogs waiting for homes.
As I said before to me its more significant if the guy is willing to take the dogs back he breeds for life than health guarantees. If everyone could step up and be responsible then we wouldn't be in this crisis.
As I said before to me its more significant if the guy is willing to take the dogs back he breeds for life than health guarantees. If everyone could step up and be responsible then we wouldn't be in this crisis.
Ahem, Since you asked.
I do .. After a long discussion about how much we both despise bybs/mills, we both got into the discussion of her dog.
She adopted him from a shelter. He is a 10 YO JRT, who has no eyes (his eyes were sewn shut) , and cannot hear. She takes him to work eveyday and he LOVES everybody (Despite the fact he was dumped at a shelter by past humans who mistreated him, and now he has no eye sight because of them, they didnt even KNOW the dog was deaf).. She adopted him, because she has a soft spot for dogs on death row, that otherwise, would be euthed if she didnt take them, because they are considered "unadoptable".. Did i mention I LOVE my vet? And Murphy!
I do
.. After a long discussion about how much we both despise bybs/mills, we both got into the discussion of her dog. She adopted him from a shelter. He is a 10 YO JRT, who has no eyes (his eyes were sewn shut) , and cannot hear. She takes him to work eveyday and he LOVES everybody (Despite the fact he was dumped at a shelter by past humans who mistreated him, and now he has no eye sight because of them, they didnt even KNOW the dog was deaf).. She adopted him, because she has a soft spot for dogs on death row, that otherwise, would be euthed if she didnt take them, because they are considered "unadoptable".. Did i mention I LOVE my vet?
And Murphy!
I'm saying, good lord people, that the average joe blow off the street isn't going to know where his vet is getting his dogs from, unless his vet chooses to share that information.
Breeders like you, Dekka, and rescuers who spend a lot of time with/around the vet are going to know. But I don't know where my vet got his dogs, and frankly, its not my business.
Now, if a vet is asked where joe blow can get a good dog, I'd hope, no matter where the vet got his/her dogs from the vet takes the time to educate about shelters/bybs/petstores/puppymills and reputable breeders.
Breeders like you, Dekka, and rescuers who spend a lot of time with/around the vet are going to know. But I don't know where my vet got his dogs, and frankly, its not my business.
Now, if a vet is asked where joe blow can get a good dog, I'd hope, no matter where the vet got his/her dogs from the vet takes the time to educate about shelters/bybs/petstores/puppymills and reputable breeders.
Well Charlie, I know that my Vet has border collies...........one is Brown and white, LOL, he's a pretty nice looking dog. Couldn't tell you where he came from though
As for the Vets, I mentioned WAY back in the thread that EVEN at my Vet there are flyers for BYB puppies. Obviously the Vet lets them hang the flyers. And yes, I call most of those flyers BYB because I am fairly certain they don't health test, they probably think a yearly physical is health testing. The SAME dogs/people have listing nearly every year, that's a bad sign as well.
As for the Vets, I mentioned WAY back in the thread that EVEN at my Vet there are flyers for BYB puppies. Obviously the Vet lets them hang the flyers. And yes, I call most of those flyers BYB because I am fairly certain they don't health test, they probably think a yearly physical is health testing. The SAME dogs/people have listing nearly every year, that's a bad sign as well.
I don't listen to my Vet about food choices. I don't listen to my Vet about jacking the dogs up with too many vaccines. I don't listen to my Vet about wanting them on HW 12 months a year. I don't listen to my Vet about flea preventative poisons either.
I am pretty well confident I am not going to listen to them if they recommend a breeder, LOL
I am pretty well confident I am not going to listen to them if they recommend a breeder, LOL