Why would a positive dog trainer leash pop?

[Saeleofu]

For me, it's a little tug, just to get their attention. Usually it's combined with and "Ahht" or something like that.. I use it when my dogs get too far ahead of me for my liking.

That's what a leash pop is to me.

As far as being a positive trainer and using a leash pop, I think it's probably the lack of regulation and inconsistent usage. One could argue that a leash pop is "positive" since it's IS positive punishment. Obviously that's not what the vast majority of people mean when they say positive trainer. But if you have someone hung up on a technicality, it's possible.

I'm a "balanced" trainer myself (more ambiguous terminology lol). I use a lot of shaping, I use the clicker a lot, but I'm not above a "NO." or a leash pop.

Watching someone train is definitely much more valuable to know their methods than reading their description of how they train. I would ask about it, and if the trainer doesn't suit you, look elsewhere.

 

[Greenmagick]

See balanced trainer is a term that bugs me lol. Proper pr is balanced

 

[Danefied]

if you find that a dog needs to be cranked on and spun around by that leash, then do it.

While there may be trainers out there who need to apply this treatment, I would argue that no dog needs to be cranked on and spun around. It may be necessary because of the human's skills (or lack there of) but not because of the dog. Just because I don't have the skills to get through to a dog otherwise, doesn't mean there is not someone out there who can.

So if leash pops are part of your repetoire, fine, but don't say its because of the dog.

 

[Greenmagick]

While there may be trainers out there who need to apply this treatment, I would argue that no dog needs to be cranked on and spun around. It may be necessary because of the human's skills (or lack there of) but not because of the dog. Just because I don't have the skills to get through to a dog otherwise, doesn't mean there is not someone out there who can.

So if leash pops are part of your repetoire, fine, but don't say its because of the dog.

^^^This...

and to add...where is the line?

Some trainers claim the dog "needs" to be strung up (sometimes to the point of passing out) or corrected to the point of losing bowel control? Is this ok?

I am really big on not just if something works...but how and why it works. There are many ways to get to the same point but the journey is often just as important.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

^^^This...

and to add...where is the line?

Some trainers claim the dog "needs" to be strung up (sometimes to the point of passing out) or corrected to the point of losing bowel control? Is this ok?

I am really big on not just if something works...but how and why it works. There are many ways to get to the same point but the journey is often just as important.

Bingo, I like my dogs to be individuals, to be comfortable, to be happy, to be themselves. I want my dogs to want to play and work with me.

 

[smeagle]

So if leash pops are part of your repetoire, fine, but don't say its because of the dog.

I think it's important to recognise that training methods have to be suitable for the handler as well as the dog.

No point giving a handler a tool or asking them to use a method that is beyond their capabilities.

My trainer/behaviourist for example could teach 99% of dogs loose leash walking very quickly with a flat collar only but not all of the clients he would see would have the same skill or timing to do the same effectively. That's when they might use a tool to give the owner leverage.

I personally don't use any physical corrections in training heel work, I've never found it necessary and I train it all without a leash. Though I think training HW and training LLW are two very different things.

IMO if a trainer can get good results who am I to argue their methods are wrong? Take HW for example - there are a million different ways to train it. I think my way is awesome and it works really well but if someone can get nice up HW in their dog using a different method how can I justify rubbishing it?

 

[release the hounds]

Be careful not to take an edited portion of one post and make that the conversation.

maybe read the entire post, you'll find the "line". It's not what you tell me it is, it's not where I tell you it is, it's not where anybody says it is, except YOU.

You'll also notice, I said your relationship and how well your dog is trained is what is important.

if you can maintain those, I don't really care how you got there, I suspect you shouldn't really care how i did either.

I don't really care to take extremes and make them the conversation, but since you want to. IF there was a situation you found things so aggregious where you found it necessary to "string your dog up" to the point of passing out, as you say and you could effectively communicate your intentions with the dog and maintain your relationship, go for it.

 

[Greenmagick]

Geez...its a general conversation. I didnt say what your line was...for ME thats why I am not ok with the whatever works idea...didnt say you were.

And yes, I do think there is a LINE. I dont care if others disagree, I can say someone has crossed a line even if they think its still ok.

 

[Danefied]

I think it's important to recognise that training methods have to be suitable for the handler as well as the dog.

Again, that's fine, but lets be real about why the method is being used or why the tool is on the dog.

If the great dane is wearing a prong so that the 80 year old arthritic owner can walk him without incident, say its because of who the owner is, not because what the dog is or is not capable of.

If someone tries to clicker train a dog to heel and fails, then finds success with collar pops, its not because the dog could not learn with clicker training, it was because for whatever reason, that owner was more effective with the other method.

I'm no Dr. Doolittle, but I would wager to bet that pretty much all dogs would rather learn with clickers than collar pops. Unfortunately, its not always their choice is it?

 

[Fran101]

I don't have an issue with leash pops and don't think they are that big of a deal under the right circumstances

AKA: My dog is dragging me over to go eat the nastiest grossest piece of garbage on the sidewalk
I'm not going to take out a toy and try to convince him to leave the garbage alone lol I'm going to pull him away from it or pop his collar to get him to stop.

It's not something meant to hurt the dog. It's just something meant to say "Hey! come on now pay attention .. you know better than that. leave it alone. Remember your manners"

I'm all for positive training. I love clickers and treats and all of it.. but that doesn't mean I train my dogs in a plastic bubble of positivity and butterflies. lol they know what "NO!" is and "HEY!" and "STOP THAT!" and they know that a leash pop means to knock off what they are doing.

I would NEVER use a leash or any other tool to hurt my dog. but to me, it's just a way of communicating. He feels the sudden movement and knows that I'm trying to tell him to pay attention or stop what he is doing.

I know my dogs, I know their issues.. and I know what works for them.

I don't equate the occasional leash pop with beating your dog or alpha rolling lol

 

[Dekka]

I don't have an issue with leash pops and don't think they are that big of a deal under the right circumstances

AKA: My dog is dragging me over to go eat the nastiest grossest piece of garbage on the sidewalk
I'm not going to take out a toy and try to convince him to leave the garbage alone lol I'm going to pull him away from it or pop his collar to get him to stop.

See to me that is management. If your dog was already trained to 'leave' things. You can do that it a happy positive way. And it can stick. Dekka brought me a bag full of treats (whilst I was in the bathroom no less) because she has been taught to trade things.

I have done some VERY not positive things when I am in 'management' mode. But that is not training that is "oh crap I haven't trained for this".

 

[Danefied]

See to me that is management. If your dog was already trained to 'leave' things. You can do that it a happy positive way. And it can stick.

Yup.

Management = dragging the dog away from the turd on the street. Management means I need to go home and better proof that command.
Training = presenting the dog with said turd and leash popping the dog when he shows interest. Repeat same procedure until the dog knows to stay away from turds when mom says "leave it".

You don't need to leash pop a dog to teach "leave it" and someone billing themselves as a "positive" trainer should know that.

I love the rally figure 8 around distractions exercise, because you can really see how the leash pop (escape avoidance) training breaks down here. Either the dog slows way down and loses focus, or the dog "tests" the command now that the leash is off. If you've never relied on a leash for a leave it to begin with, you end up with a much more solid leave it.