Why would a positive dog trainer leash pop?

[skittledoo]

Without saying the dog trainer's name I'm curious about something. A dog trainer I know lists on her website that she is CPDT certified and is a positive dog trainer. Upon observation of her with one dog I noticed her leash pop a dog that she was training not to pull. I personally don't think leash popping really teaches a dog where you want them to be when walking and can create fear and anxiety issues when on leash. Is it common for a dog trainer to say they train with positive reinforcement but then turn around and also use some methods that aren't positive reinforcement on a dog that she is training?

 

[Maxy24]

All trainers have different opinions on what constitutes "positive". Some trainers call themselves positive if they use treats at all, even if they use choke chains, scruff shakes, and alpha rolls.


But it's also possible the trainer just happened to loose her temper while training this dog and gave a leash pop. Who knows.

That's why if you are going to use a trainer you should try to watch them train and question them about how they feel about different methods.

 

[kady05]

A leash pop is that big of a deal?? Really?? Wow.

As Maxy said, everyone has different views on what is positive and what isn't. I personally have no issue giving my dogs a pop on the lead if they get too far in front of me or just aren't paying attention. I don't find that to be extremely negative. Jerking the crap out of them and yanking them around? Yeah that'd be more negative, but a little "Hey, pay attention!" pop, no.

 

[SaraB]

This is why we want the trainer field to be more regulated. *Most* positive trainers would consider a leash correction to harsh. There are much better alternatives to teaching a dog to walk nicely on a leash than that and it seems a shame to jump to punishments.

 

[SaraB]

A leash pop is that big of a deal?? Really?? Wow.

I think it's a big deal because the trainer calls herself PR, where a leash pop is a punishment.

 

[release the hounds]

the best dog trainers communicate with their dogs in the means most effective. Some use a leash, some use electric, some use crates, some withold food, some give food, some toys, treats, playtime, swimming etc.

If you're causing leash issues from a leash pop, you are woefully incompetent as a dog trainer.

and if you think it is possible to train a dog without punishment, i think you're absolutely crazy, OR have a pretty big misunderstanding on how dogs learn and what is and isn't punishment.

 

[SaraB]

and if you think it is possible to train a dog without punishment, i think you're absolutely crazy, OR have a pretty big misunderstanding on how dogs learn and what is and isn't punishment.

I agree with this 100%. Life is full of punishment.

 

[Taqroy]

What exactly is a leash pop? Like a hard yank on the leash or like Kady described, just a little tug?

 

[Danefied]

Is the leash pop part of the process of teaching a dog to walk nicely on a leash? Then no, I do not consider that a "positive trainer" in MY definition of what a PR trainer is. That's not to say I think PR trainers should not use punishment BTW, but I don't consider a trainer who uses P+ as part of the learning process a PR trainer.

And that's just my personal opinion. The field is completely unregulated, so trainers can call themselves whatever they want.

 

[SaraB]

That's not to say I think PR trainers should not use punishment BTW, but I don't consider a trainer who uses P+ as part of the learning process a PR trainer.

This! Nicely put.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Let’s talk about timing. Consequences must occur within 1-2 seconds of a dog doing a behavior in order for the dog to connect the two. This basic training principle is true for the timing of rewards and punishments. But humans are notorious for sloppy timing and inconsistency when delivering consequences. Rarely are humans skilled at popping the leash at just right the moment and in time for the dog to understand what behavior is being punished. Given humans’ inconsistency and poor timing, as far as Rover is concerned, sometimes he’s punished for pulling on leash, sometimes he isn’t punished for that, and sometimes he’s punished for walking quite nicely on leash. Confusing and unfair, don’t you think?

Leash pops are good way to build frustration, fear and anxiety in a dog. Wearing the leash becomes a predictor of nasty things for the dog. Depending on when the leash pops occur, the pain may become associated with whatever’s in the vicinity at that moment.

Let’s say Fred jerks the leash whenever Fluffy pulls towards others dogs. The sight of other dogs when Fluffy’s on leash would easily become a predictor of pain for her. Soon Fred may find himself walking a dog who turns into a snarling, lunging, barking mess whenever she sees another dog.

Thankfully, there is a humane effective alternative. Instead of leash popping or giving Rover other forceful, painful and unkind corrections, your time is far better spent training him to do what you want him to do using positive reward-based methods. If you want Rover to maintain a heel position on leash walks, train him to do that and reward him for doing so. If you want Rover to sit at every street corner, train him to do that and reward him for doing so. Behaviors trained in this way become stronger and more frequent, and a lovely side effect of positive training will result. Rover will want to do the things you’ve rewarded him for! I suspect if he could talk, he’d thank you for taking the time to teach him those things.

If your dog’s an ardent leash puller, enroll him in a positive training basic manners class, a leash manners workshop or consult with a qualified positive trainer. No doubt, training leash manners takes lots of time, practice and patience, but in this trainer’s humble opinion, that’s infinitely better than inflicting pain and confusing a dog every time he goes for a walk.

We do allow and use "positive" attention gaining, light, leash pops at my training facility. However these are used while in a heel position and timing is everything. If a dog is wandering in front and pulls we stop, wait, when the dog looks we praise and continue. We have other methods here but as per the policy of the facility I work at we do not crank and yank dogs in some arbitrary method of control.

I'd call and ask the trainer about what you saw, possibly they have a reason, possibly they just need a reminder.

Possibly they're a schmuck who lies about their methodology to benefit from the PP theory that appeals to owners emotions.

 

[kady05]

What exactly is a leash pop? Like a hard yank on the leash or like Kady described, just a little tug?

For me, it's a little tug, just to get their attention. Usually it's combined with and "Ahht" or something like that.. I use it when my dogs get too far ahead of me for my liking.

 

[skittledoo]

Ya Kady this lady didn't do a light tug. It was a big yank to the point the dog almost fell over and the dog looked really confused afterward. I am going to talk to the trainer about it. Not in an accusatory way though. I'm just curious to know her reasons behind it. I've given my dogs a little tug before though i usually prefer to focus more on stopping and rewarding the dog by continuing to move forward when the dog releases the leash tension and comes back into heel or loose lead position depending on what we are working on at the time. I've only seen this trainer do this with one dog so far but I haven't seen her work with any other dogs. I don't disagree that there are times when punishment might be an appropriate response depending on the situation, dog and the timing of the punishment... but since I'm interested in earning my CPDT as well I'm just curious if what this trainer is doing is common practice or what. The fact that different trainers view positive reinforcement training a little different from each other makes it frustrating for me when I try to pin point exactly what positive reinforcement training is if that makes sense.

 

[Taqroy]

For me, it's a little tug, just to get their attention. Usually it's combined with and "Ahht" or something like that.. I use it when my dogs get too far ahead of me for my liking.

Ah, see that's what I was thinking. I use that occasionally on Tipper when she gets too stressed out and "can't" hear me. It just reminds her that I'm there and then she'll come back so we can do some calming stuff. But I try to use it rarely cause (in our case) I don't want it to contribute to her stressed out-ness.

ETA: I have a really clear memory of watching a lady "walk" her two dogs in Buena Vista one day. She had a little tiny dog that she was literally swinging around at the end of the leash and a big giant dog that she was yanking on. Then she had the nerve to yell at me for staring at her (I was in a parked car and hell yeah I was staring) until I threatened to call animal control. I suppose she considered that nothing more than leash pops too. I hate that the English language is so subjective.

 

[Red.Apricot]

I was actually tricked into going to a class like that. Over email, the woman told me that it was a positive clicker training class, and I said great, and signed up. The first lesson went okay, although she kept telling me to jerk the leash (which I didn't) and at the second lesson told me that I needed to buy a pinch collar. I didn't go back. I don't so much object to her using pinch collars in her class as I do being misled into thinking it was the right class for me when it wasn't. It was frustrating to be told that it was a clicker training class when in reality it was just a correction based class where clickers were used occasionally--the trainer also didn't want clicking to be done to shape behaviors, only when the behavior was perfect, which was not how we'd been doing things at home. She also wanted me to fade the treats and just click for good behavior, which again, went against everything that I'd read, and everything that had been working for me so far. The other problem was, Elsie doesn't need a pinch collar--the worst she needs is a sharp tone and a touch to her ear (like, poking her ear gently with a finger) to bring her back to earth and get her to focus. There's no reason, in my opinion, to put a pinch collar on a 6 month old puppy who doesn't need one.

 

[Dekka]

I know of a person who trains in a very kohler type way. NO food, NO toys, only praise and choke chains. She calls her classes 'positive' and is certified in all sorts of postive preferred organizations. People can call them what ever they want.

As a side note. I had nothing against light leash pops. But I ditched them for good when I found that Kaiden's heeling got MUCH better when I told him what I did want vs telling him what not to do. I was having issues with lagging, leash popping wasn't making it better (I was rewarding him when he was in heel, a little leash pop when he fell back..) I ditched the leash popping and in 2 sessions he stopped lagging.

 

[release the hounds]

Why figure out what something is based on how other people tell you it should be? Dog training is widely varied, for good or bad, it is. The type of people and dogs you will be training are all very different.

There are very good principles that will do you well in every dog you meet and there will be slight variations in every dog as well, depending on how far you are going to take that dog in training.

Find what works for you, find what works in the situations you like to train in, and do what makes you happy and comfortable when you're training.

If you find someday you never need a leash, good, if you never want to use a leash, then don't. if you find that a dog needs to be cranked on and spun around by that leash, then do it. If you realize later your emotions got the best of you, then learn from it.

you don't have to be all things to everybody, in dog training, or in anything. Find what you do and what you want to do. I'm not saying you can't learn from others, you will learn 95% of what you do from others, but you'll also make it your own someday. But what i'm saying is, don't do it or don't do it, based on someone's definition of you.

Do what makes you comfortable. There are many ways to communicate with a dog, learn them and use them. Your relationship and how your dog is trained is what is important. Not what someone says on the interent because they say you leash pop your dog

 

[NicoleLJ]

Why figure out what something is based on how other people tell you it should be? Dog training is widely varied, for good or bad, it is. The type of people and dogs you will be training are all very different.

There are very good principles that will do you well in every dog you meet and there will be slight variations in every dog as well, depending on how far you are going to take that dog in training.

Find what works for you, find what works in the situations you like to train in, and do what makes you happy and comfortable when you're training.

If you find someday you never need a leash, good, if you never want to use a leash, then don't. if you find that a dog needs to be cranked on and spun around by that leash, then do it. If you realize later your emotions got the best of you, then learn from it.

you don't have to be all things to everybody, in dog training, or in anything. Find what you do and what you want to do. I'm not saying you can't learn from others, you will learn 95% of what you do from others, but you'll also make it your own someday. But what i'm saying is, don't do it or don't do it, based on someone's definition of you.

Do what makes you comfortable. There are many ways to communicate with a dog, learn them and use them. Your relationship and how your dog is trained is what is important. Not what someone says on the interent because they say you leash pop your dog

:hail::hail::hail:

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

As a side note. I had nothing against light leash pops. But I ditched them for good when I found that Kaiden's heeling got MUCH better when I told him what I did want vs telling him what not to do. I was having issues with lagging, leash popping wasn't making it better (I was rewarding him when he was in heel, a little leash pop when he fell back..) I ditched the leash popping and in 2 sessions he stopped lagging.

That's great!

We've had trouble with focus in crowds with Backup since he's started maturing so lately instead of correcting I ditched the lead entirely. Rewarding for falling into place and silently running away (asking my "helper crowd" not to react is vital) when he starts looking away. I'm only on the second real session but already seeing improvements. He's started to actually watch me, not just lift his eyes for eye contact. I feel this will also improve our turns because he'll be more aware of my body movements with time.

It's truly amazing what dogs can accomplish (and how danged good they look) when you ask them to think, not just act like robots.

 

[Southpaw]

I don't have a problem with leash pops, but in a class environment I'd expect to train without them if they're claiming to be positive.