Whoopie Goldberg defends Vick

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#41
Now, in some parts of the world they worship rats and cows and here we are feeding them to snakes (rats) and slaughtering them for our own food consumption (cows). In Korea when you walk into a meat market you see cages full of puppies and dogs ready to be slaughtered for someones dinner plate.
I see what you're saying, but it's also considered the norm and acceptable in their countries. They aren't breaking any laws.

Vick, despite of his "culture" or "upbringing" knew what was right and wrong. He knows what laws are, and that he broke them. The fact that he tried to cover it up and denied it plainly proves that.

I grew up in an abusive home. Doesn't mean I slap people around. I know what is acceptable, what is right and what is wrong. I know what the laws are.
 

Amstaffer

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#42
Ditto. I think everyone here should watch the video in its entirety.
One side of her mouth is saying "It doesn't excuse him" but then the other side implies an excuse when she says it is part of his culture....and I did watch the video twice...in its entirety.
 

Lilavati

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#43
True to form, another long post:

There is a school of thought in Holocaust studies that claims that no effort should be made to understand why Hitler and the Nazis engaged in genocide. The logic is that "to explain is to excuse" or "to understand is to forgive." I have always found this point of view foolish . . . knowing WHY is often the first step to figuring out prevention. And by demanding the only answer be 'they were wrong and evil,' we fail to understand how otherwise decent people can do horrific things and how to battle this kind of evil.

I've watched the video, and I don't think Whoopi is trying to excuse Vick's behavior. She's trying to explain it . . . trying to answer the question of 'why did he do it?' or 'how could a wealthy, successful man have been involved in this?'. One answer is, of course, callous bloodlust and I'm certain that's part of the answer. But it is also quite possible that exposure to a sub-set of Southern culture where dogfighting is not condemned as totally unacceptable behavior had a lot of to do with it. Coming from the rural South myself, I can say that there are numerous Southern subcultures, not one "Southern culture". And some of those subcultures are not pleasant: dog-fighting, church-burning, etc.

Also, to say something is cultural does not excuse it, but it may help understand how to fight it. Female gentital mutilation in Africa is horrible: misogynistic, dangerous, and cruel. But it is a long-standing tradition, not an act performed by perverted weirdos, as it would be if an American suburban family took the practice up out of the blue. Its cultural standing does not make it any more justifiable, or give a reason to prevent its abolishion (at least not in my mind) but it does change how you might approach the problem of stopping the practice.

Whoopi perhaps could have spoken better, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. Understanding why people, especially otherwise seemingly respectable people, engage in dogfighting is important. Not only does it answer to our innate curiousity--how could he have done such a thing?--but gives us potential tools to fight it. If the problem is that this behavior is acceptable in certain subcultures (and until recently ignored by law enforcement) then perhaps the solution is to make it vividly clear just how unacceptable it is to the rest of society . . . by punishing the perpetrators, and by publicly skewering them not only for criminal activity, but for disguisting cruelty.
 

Red_ACD_for_me

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#45
True to form, another long post:

There is a school of thought in Holocaust studies that claims that no effort should be made to understand why Hitler and the Nazis engaged in genocide. The logic is that "to explain is to excuse" or "to understand is to forgive." I have always found this point of view foolish . . . knowing WHY is often the first step to figuring out prevention. And by demanding the only answer be 'they were wrong and evil,' we fail to understand how otherwise decent people can do horrific things and how to battle this kind of evil.

I've watched the video, and I don't think Whoopi is trying to excuse Vick's behavior. She's trying to explain it . . . trying to answer the question of 'why did he do it?' or 'how could a wealthy, successful man have been involved in this?'. One answer is, of course, callous bloodlust and I'm certain that's part of the answer. But it is also quite possible that exposure to a sub-set of Southern culture where dogfighting is not condemned as totally unacceptable behavior had a lot of to do with it. Coming from the rural South myself, I can say that there are numerous Southern subcultures, not one "Southern culture". And some of those subcultures are not pleasant: dog-fighting, church-burning, etc.

Also, to say something is cultural does not excuse it, but it may help understand how to fight it. Female gentital mutilation in Africa is horrible: misogynistic, dangerous, and cruel. But it is a long-standing tradition, not an act performed by perverted weirdos, as it would be if an American suburban family took the practice up out of the blue. Its cultural standing does not make it any more justifiable, or give a reason to prevent its abolishion (at least not in my mind) but it does change how you might approach the problem of stopping the practice.

Whoopi perhaps could have spoken better, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. Understanding why people, especially otherwise seemingly respectable people, engage in dogfighting is important. Not only does it answer to our innate curiousity--how could he have done such a thing?--but gives us potential tools to fight it. If the problem is that this behavior is acceptable in certain subcultures (and until recently ignored by law enforcement) then perhaps the solution is to make it vividly clear just how unacceptable it is to the rest of society . . . by punishing the perpetrators, and by publicly skewering them not only for criminal activity, but for disguisting cruelty.
WOW! very well put! :hail:
 

Amstaffer

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#46
Lilavati....very well put and that would be great if Whoopi was actually on the same page as you.

From her tone, presentation I really got the impression that yes her main goal was to explain but she was in her motherly way, trying to use that explanation to remove some culpability for Vick and others from his "Culture"

By the way....I have known young black men (Some in my family) from the south that don't fight dogs. Dog fighting and Burning churches are not sub cultures...they are criminal actions and are Counter cultures at best not subcultures.
 

Rubylove

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#47
Did anyone see Dr Phil on Leno the other night? And what he had to say about Michael Vick? It was the most unabashed, honest and true account of Vick's actions I have heard so far from the mouth of any other celebrity on this case - a pure and unadulterated criticism, not an ounce of an excuse about race, culture or any of the other rubbish that has been spouted by so many - Whoopi, Jamie Foxx and so forth.

I have always been ambivalent about Dr Phil, but after that, I will always respect him. He said it like it IS, no sugar coating or treading carefully from one famous person about another. It made me cry - because it's the first time I've felt that someone had the guts to come out and just say straight out how wrong and unacceptable this whole situation is, regardless of where Vick came from or how he was raised.

I am looking for a link so I can quote him, or better still, so people can watch for themselves. Whilst I agree that Whoopi was not trying to find excuses, but more explanations, I still think that there can be no justification for this man and his crimes, under any circumstances, any time.
 

ToscasMom

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#48
You know, Ruby, I have to give you this one and concede. Because you are right. This man is a blotch upon society. he is hardly a step away from pedophiles and killers. It's like when serial killers get caught and we have to listen to the horsh!t about how awful their childhood was. There is no excuse. Criminals for the most part, unless they are wildly insane, know right from wrong. Using their past doesn't negate what they did. While it may be true that he was "raised" doing this kind of thing to dogs, and I truly would like to know what godforsaken place in the USA deems this as a good thing, I am more than certain he *knew* this is against the law and not acceptable to society in any way, shape or form. If he can read at all, he has read about the busting of dog fighting rings. if he can hear, he heard it on the radio. And if he can see, he saw it on TV.

Most normal people instinctively know what is right and what is wrong, and most normal people know that inflicting pain on another living thing for fun and games and profit is wrong. While it might have been "right" in his circle or during his upbringing, what ever mysterious ditch that had to be in, he still had to know this was wrong both legally and morally.

I wish him everything he deserves in life just so long as it isn't good. While I think Whoopie's intentions were good, nobody should stick up for this vile piece of crap.
 

Lilavati

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#49
First thing, Amstaffer, I in NO WAY meant to imply that the culture of young black men, or people of any ethnicity are responsible. I used the word subculture in a very generic sense, to mean a subset of a larger culture. I avoid the phrase Counter Culture cause it means something different to everyone and is highly politically charged. It is deeply, deeply unfortunate that this has become a racial issue in the press and in the minds of the public. It isn't a racial issue, it's an animal cruelty issue. And there are people of all races involved.

I can see your point, there's a very fine line between explaining someone's behavior and justifying it. Whoopi came close to that line, but the problem for anyone walking it is that different people will take what you say in different ways. I have no idea what Whoopi meant to say, but I am still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. As far as I can tell, she always uses that motherly tone of voice.

Concurring with Tosca, Michael Vick is blot on soceity, and the condemnation of him is completely justified. But I don't think trying to explain his behavior is a mistake. Whether its bloodlust, or culture, or just plain stupidity, knowing why people do these things is important to fighting it. Even more important is educating those who are not involved but aware of it to report it and ostracize those who engage in it.

As for the culture issue and whether he was 'raised' to these things, I want to discuss an uncomfortable truth. Namely, that the days when this sort of thing was widespread was not so long ago. And the days when less horrific, but still appalling treatment of animals was acceptable is very much within living memory.

I grew up in a rural area. it was known that cock-fighting went on, though not, to my knowledge, dog fighting. And I knew many people, who were othereise good people and upstanding citizens, who treated animals in a way that I do not approve of. I don't mean they were delibrately cruel or abusive, but they viewed animals as a means to an end. Not just livestock but dogs and cats and other pets. They had a very unsentimental attitude towards animals . . . the dog doesn't hunt? Shoot it. Cat doesn't catch mice? Dump it at a shelter or hit in the head with a hatchet. Horse foundered and will be heathly but un-ridable? Take it to the glue factory. I know people here will find this horrifying, but it was a fact of life. I never liked it, I still don't like it, and thank god my parents had a more generous attitude. Of course, they could afford to . . . their livlihood did not depend on their animals and they could afford to feed and care for a 'useless' animal. Now, these folks would not condone what Michael Vick was doing. They'd say it was cruel, and there is far too much evidence that he got a kick out of killing his dogs, not to mention them tearing each other apart. But they might well say, that they are his dogs, that's what they are bred to do, and its not really any of their business what he does with them . . . though they'd tell their kids to stay the hell away from him. These aren't bad people, at least, not in balence . . . they love their kids, pay their taxes, and many of them are deeply fond of animals . . . they just have no use for one that doesn't serve its purpose. They are also deeply independent and don't like anyone telling them what to do. I do not mean to defend how they, and certainly not Michael Vick, treat animals. But its real, and we should face up to it.

On a more personal, and more painful note, I visited my grandmother recently. She used to raise Dalmations for show. Very, very good Dalmations, not only winners, but suitable for work, and with good temperments and no deafness. She loves animals, and has always been surrounded by them. Too old now to raise her own dogs, she has a rescue Dalmation who she adores. But while I was visiting, the topic of her breeding days came up and she told me, in a perfectly matter of fact away that she tested the puppies at 6 weeks for temperment and deafness. If they didn't pass, they were knocked in the head and disposed of. Lemon marked Dalmations suffered the same fate unless she had a pet home lined up. She was even rather proud of it . . . it was part of being a responsible breeder to her that no flawed animal would be allowed to live, let alone allowed to breed. It was quick, she said, and better for everyone. When I remembered to say something in response, I pointed out that behavior training can help with temperment and that deaf dogs can be trained. She would have none of it 'We didn't do it that way, and I never sold a bad dog.' was what she said. I am certain she honestly believes that she was doing the best thing for the breed (which in terms of not allowing such animals to reproduce is certainly true) and for the puppies themselves. I was none-the-less appalled, I still am. But I don't love her less for it. She's right. That WAS how it was done then, expecially in the area of the country she lived in. She's very old, and I can't expect her to appologize for it because we know a better way now. (Notably, she did have some very choice things to say about Michael Vick)

I do expect Michael Vick to appologize, and sincerely, and not with attestations of religious conversion. I also know better than to hope that this will happen. I suspect the only thing he feels sorry about is that he got caught.

But we would do well to remember that a good part of the reaction to this should not only be condemnation, but education. Education not only that dog fighting is wrong and still very much present in our nation, but that animals are entitled, by law and morality, to a minimum of humane treatment and that there are other ways to do things. Further that society at large no longer approves of these practices, not because they are bleading hearts, or because they want to interfere with your way of life, but because our understanding of animals has grown, because our empathy has grown, and because our investment as a society to the welfare of animals has grown. Moreover, that indifference and tolaerance are what feed this sort of cruelty, what allow it to exist in the shadows, to suddenly burst onto our television screens, turn our stomaches, and shock our consciences.
 
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