Training penpal

TheWholePack

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#1
I have 6 dogs, in the country, in northern Mexico. Needless to say, there are no trainers or behavior specialists around here. So, I'm reading, putting into practice what I already know, and using bits and pieces of information I have seen from trainers, in order to work with all 6 dogs.

I'm looking for someone else who is working with positive behavior training that is at a beginners stage with their dog or dogs, that is interested in sharing ideas, tips, progress, setbacks, and generally email back a forth a bit regarding how the training is coming along.

I wouldn't want to bore the forum with weekly details about progress I'm making, so I thought that maybe someone else in my situation must be out there. Two minds are better than one!

My dogs are beginners. They sit, down, come, stay (briefly), and heel (with some pulling occasionally.) Is there anyone else out there that would like to be in touch via email once a week to chat a bit about positive dog training and how things are coming along?

My goals are:

Heel without pulling
Sit when a person approaches
Come
Emergency callback
Stay

Anyone interested?
 

yoko

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#2
hey i would! yoshi'd pretty well trained buuut

Heel without pulling
Sit when a person approaches

are two main things i need to work on. heeling is gettinng waaaay better and being calm when someone approaches is getting better but no luck in sitting.
 
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#4
You'll find that most of us on this forum like being "bored" with regular updates - and you'll find a lot of people very willing to share on the forum - more than would be comfortable sending someone they don't know their e-mail right off the bat.
 

jess2416

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#6
Ditto ^^...

I like hearing about other peoples training adventures, because sometimes what they do is something I havent thought of :)
 

Doberluv

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#7
Yes, that is what a dog forum is all about....to discuss and enjoy talking about dogs, learning new things, sharing knowledge.

So, I'm reading, putting into practice what I already know, and using bits and pieces of information I have seen from trainers, in order to work with all 6 dogs.
Could you share with us what you've already learned and what you do to train your dogs obedience or good manners? Does it vary from dog to dog? Are your dogs similar in how they learn or do they each require a little difference in how you approach their training?

Will be glad to see what you have to share. And if you have any problems, I'm sure lots of people will have some good ideas for you as well.
 

TheWholePack

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#8
Ok, well here goes.

First of all, thanks for taking the time. From what I've seen there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here so any suggestions are welcome.

Five of my dogs have been to training classes. There's been a bit of everything tried with them. I found the best thing to be rewarding positive behavior, so I've read Pamela Dennison's Positive Dog Training, Don't Shoot the Dog, and now I'm onto The Power of Positive Dog Training.

Lucky - Blue Heeler. Heels inconsistently but is getting rewarded with bite size treats when he does well. When he's pulling I stop, turn away, wait about 15 or 20 seconds (he sits usually and waits for me) and then we try again. He's great once he's tired out, after a couple of blocks. It's the beginning that's more difficult. He sits if I have a treat, but is slow on the take if there isn't one visible. He sits to go out, waits until I walk out the door and call him out. Coming in he's more reluctant to sit and wait, probably due to the other dogs milling around the door. I'm having a hard time with the emergency call back, since he won't go more than a couple of feet away from me. His stay is improving since I started NILIF a week or so ago. Although when I'm out of sight he tries to sneak over to see where I am. My biggest problem is dealing with his growling and fighting with my 10 year old mix breed (the only other male who has become incredibly summisive but still gets the aggression). I'm racking my brain over how to deal with this problem and have yet to come up with a solution. Is putting him in his crate an option when he's growling or provoking?

Milla - Italian Greyhound. She hates the lead. She jumps and pulls all over the place. For now I'm putting it on her in the house and rewarding calm behavior. She's not ready to go for a walk outside of the yard just yet. She jumps on me when I come home so I'm coming into the yard and holding treats at her level. If she has all 4 paws on the ground, she gets one. She sits on command. She knows "bed" and "smile" (she pulls her lips back and shows me her teeth in a kind of embarrassed way...). She's the least trained. I hope to get her out for a leashed walk sometime in the next week once she feels comfortable with the lead on. My goal is a week to get used to the lead, and I'm leaving it on her bed so she's not afraid of it. If she lets me put it on without trying to escape she gets several bite size treats. This has only happened a couple of times. I'm thinking I may be putting the cart before the horse and should put the lead on and then give treats if she's calm with it on. What do you think?

Snickers - Boxer. She heels but pushes into me. She's a stong one and almost trips me up at times. She won't take treats while walking so when she heels without pushing my legs she gets verbal reinforcement (Good girl!).
Her come is terrible. She's all over the place with squirrels, falling pecans, leaves, the wind, whatever.... I'm not using come until she's definately on her way back to me (only in the yard), and she's getting rewarded heavily. When she's on the other side of the yard I just call her name and only use come when she's closer. This is a tough one since I have a couple of acres of fenced yard, but my neighbor down the road has 9 dogs that are loose and usually barking somewhere along the fence. Snickers is the last one to come when there are other dogs on the other side of the fence. (By the way, my neighbor is a drunk that feeds his dogs from the garbage and poisons them off when they become too many - I live in the 3rd world so the police and municipal govt won't do anything about this problem.)

Imogen - Mixed breed. She's either excited or worried when we go for a walk. She whines most of the time and is constantly looking at me. She's secure enough in the yard, but is very unsure of herself anywhere else. She heels fine, sits on command, and is the first one to come when called. I'm trying to get her to feel more secure while walking, so she gets treats when she's not constantly looking at me....(opposite to what I've read - which says we need to reinforce eye contact). I stop where there are no distractions and give her a good scratch when she's calm, or brush her a bit since she loves both.

Negra - Mixed breed. She's huge, Imogen's daughter, (looks nothing like her) is very similar to a black lab, but much stockier. She's pulling on the lead. A lot. We don't get more than a couple of feet and I stop, wait (she couldn't care less) and start again. She takes 2 steps and pulls again. She heeled just fine with a choke collar (for lack of a better name) but I'm considering picking up a harness for her the next time I go to the States for dog food. I'm at a loss with her. We don't get far with the walk or training due to the pulling. She sits and stays well. She learned to sit when someone approaches in two days. She knows there's a treat in it for her....

Twist - Mixed breed rescue dog. He's my oldest (10 years) and does everything wonderfully. His treat is the alone time with me. You can tell that he just loves to get away from the rest of the pack. He gets treats but only a couple since he's not very interested in them generally.

By the way, the treats I'm using are from a recipe that my aunt passed on to me. It's made with baby food and a bit of bacon grease and dried milk. They love them, but with 6 dogs it takes me most of a Saturday morning to make enough bite sized cookies to last a week. In Mexico, they don't sell dog treats. The problem is that now they're aware of the treats that are always in my pocket and dance around for them or sit in front of me while walking around the ranch so they'll get one. Has anyone had this problem? It's like a circus sometimes and yesterday I stopped walking since I was laughing so hard. They were all doing something to get a treat. One or two sitting, Milla "smiling", Lucky trying to shake a paw...it was crazy. All I wanted to do was wander around the trees with them all!

Well, if you made it this far you're patient! This is where I'm at right now. Each one of my dogs is at a different place.

My experience with training has been everything from shock collars (that only lasted a day or so and it's now somewhere in the storageroom collecting dust), "training" collars (choke collars) - which (gulp) actually worked on a couple of the dogs, and lots and lots of positive reinforcement. I'm a teacher so I can see the benefits of using positive reinforcement not only with dogs, but with children. Learning is learning as far as I'm concerned, we have to motivate in order to educate. Hopefully I'm on the right track.

Your suggestions, comments, whatever, are welcome. I'll update in a week or so with any progress that I'm able to make. I promise it will be a shorter post!
 

Doberluv

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#10
Ok, well here goes.

First of all, thanks for taking the time. From what I've seen there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here so any suggestions are welcome.

Five of my dogs have been to training classes. There's been a bit of everything tried with them. I found the best thing to be rewarding positive behavior, so I've read Pamela Dennison's Positive Dog Training, Don't Shoot the Dog, and now I'm onto The Power of Positive Dog Training.
Great books! Another you would enjoy and IMO is the most important book of all and my personal favorite is Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. Another good one is For The Love of a Dog, by Patricia McConnell. I also got a lot out of Turid Rugaas's book, On Talking Terms With Dogs, Calming Signals....very good. There are lots more but just to name a few....

Lucky - Blue Heeler. Heels inconsistently but is getting rewarded with bite size treats when he does well. When he's pulling I stop, turn away, wait about 15 or 20 seconds (he sits usually and waits for me) and then we try again. He's great once he's tired out, after a couple of blocks. It's the beginning that's more difficult. He sits if I have a treat, but is slow on the take if there isn't one visible. He sits to go out, waits until I walk out the door and call him out. Coming in he's more reluctant to sit and wait, probably due to the other dogs milling around the door. I'm having a hard time with the emergency call back, since he won't go more than a couple of feet away from me. His stay is improving since I started NILIF a week or so ago. Although when I'm out of sight he tries to sneak over to see where I am. My biggest problem is dealing with his growling and fighting with my 10 year old mix breed (the only other male who has become incredibly summisive but still gets the aggression). I'm racking my brain over how to deal with this problem and have yet to come up with a solution. Is putting him in his crate an option when he's growling or provoking?

As far as the heeling, are you talking about a tight, formal heel or a loose leash walk? Heeling is very precise and IMO shouldn't be carried on for an entire walk....just short stretches or for practice. It takes a lot of concentration. But just keep at what you're doing. Have you ever used a clicker? That's how I tidied up a lot of skills, particularly the heel. It shows the dog just exactly what he is doing which is earning him the treat. It takes a lot of the guessing out of it for the dog since he is doing other behaviors at the same time.......always. So, there are variables that he has to sift through. The clicker gives a clear, concise communication to him. Personally, when you stop, I wouldn't turn around unless you're changing directions and he is to come along. When you stop, just stand there and wait until he gives you a little slack in the leash, then resume walking. Show him that any tension what so ever causes the good thing (the walking forward) to end. Slack causes the good thing to happen. (be consistent) Then you can refine it as you go.

As far as his sitting only if the treat is visable....what's happened is that (he isn't being "stubborn,") is that the treat has become part of the cue. Whenever you use a lure to get a dog started on a skill or behavior, you want to fade it asap. Go back as if you're starting over. Practice indoors in a non-distracting environment. Lure him into the sit 3 or 4 times. Stand and turn around in between to signify starting a new exercise. Then put your treat in your non-luring hand and again lure him into a sit. Give him the treat. Do that about 4 times. By this time he's going to be getting bored so do something fun or different for about 2 or 3 minutes and come back to it. Now put the treats in your pocket and lure him into a sit. Start making your lure more subtle. Now put the treats on the counter a little away from him and you'll have to step over to reward him. When he is sitting reliably, skip a time or two of giving him a treat. Then treat. Then skip 4 times, then 2, then 6, then 3. Keep him guessing as to when he'll get a treat. (like a slot machine works) lol. Keeps 'em trying and trying harder. Only do this when his sit becomes regular and easy for him.

For the sit and wait being difficult with all the dogs milling around, just stand there with your hand on the door handle and wait for all of them to sit. Don't say a word, just wait. When they do, give your release word and open the door. Soon, they'll learn this little trick by default.

You can look for the sticky by Dr2little on the emergency recall. You can use a friend or family member to hold him on a leash and then let him come to you. I don't know what to tell you to get him to go away from you. LOL.

The two males fighting is a problem and they'll need to be supervised constantly. It's a real risk of a serious injury or death when this is happening. Yes, without being stern or punishing, you can give the offending dog a time out for a few minutes. Then try again. Repeat. Don't associate the crate with punishment. If you're calm and matter of fact, it should be fine. Or you can use another room. Isolation from being sociable is often helpful. However, you're not finding out what the deal is. And that is beyond my scope of knowledge, especially when I can't see their day to day life or body language or anything. You might consult with a behaviorist for that. Don't let anyone use aggression to treat aggression. It is more common than you can imagine.
 

Doberluv

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#11
Milla - Italian Greyhound. She hates the lead. She jumps and pulls all over the place. For now I'm putting it on her in the house and rewarding calm behavior. She's not ready to go for a walk outside of the yard just yet. She jumps on me when I come home so I'm coming into the yard and holding treats at her level. If she has all 4 paws on the ground, she gets one. She sits on command. She knows "bed" and "smile" (she pulls her lips back and shows me her teeth in a kind of embarrassed way...). She's the least trained. I hope to get her out for a leashed walk sometime in the next week once she feels comfortable with the lead on. My goal is a week to get used to the lead, and I'm leaving it on her bed so she's not afraid of it. If she lets me put it on without trying to escape she gets several bite size treats. This has only happened a couple of times. I'm thinking I may be putting the cart before the horse and should put the lead on and then give treats if she's calm with it on. What do you think?
Baby steps. You're doing fine. When she jumps on you, turn your back and ignore her completely...When she greets you nicely...how you want, either sitting or standing, then give her attention. She mostly wants your attention when she's jumping so treats are fine, but the real motivation with jumping up is to get your attention....to greet you. Teach her what kind of greeting gets her your attention. You don't have to give her any command. Just ignore her until she sits (if sit is what you want) When you wait and wait, ignoring, the dog will sit since that's what has probably been reinforced for a long time, sit being one of the first things the dog learns. She's learned that sitting works for lots of things and will sit as she's guessing what to do. That's when you greet her and attend to her. It will become automatic if you just wait.

Does she appear to be afraid of the leash? Or is she just hyper and running around trying to avoid it? I would have her come and put it on, give treats but be confident, not tentative. "This is what we're doing and it's all going to be just fine. Now, hold still." Go ahead and associate treats with it and gradually up the ante so that she has to hold still in order to get a treat. Walk around the house with her on it, don't pull, just coax her etc. Make it like a fun game.

Snickers - Boxer. She heels but pushes into me. She's a stong one and almost trips me up at times. She won't take treats while walking so when she heels without pushing my legs she gets verbal reinforcement (Good girl!).
Her come is terrible. She's all over the place with squirrels, falling pecans, leaves, the wind, whatever.... I'm not using come until she's definately on her way back to me (only in the yard), and she's getting rewarded heavily. When she's on the other side of the yard I just call her name and only use come when she's closer. This is a tough one since I have a couple of acres of fenced yard, but my neighbor down the road has 9 dogs that are loose and usually barking somewhere along the fence. Snickers is the last one to come when there are other dogs on the other side of the fence. (By the way, my neighbor is a drunk that feeds his dogs from the garbage and poisons them off when they become too many - I live in the 3rd world so the police and municipal govt won't do anything about this problem.)
That sounds awful. You need to supervise your dog every second that he's free. I'd put a long line on him. It's impossible to train a dog in the midst of all that distraction and that neighbor sounds awful! You're right to not call her when there's no way that she's going to come. You never want to call her when you can't enforce it.

As far as the heeling, again, that clicker is a great help. But if you decide not to use it, find out what she loves, what her motivator is; a rope toy, a long wooden spoon with peanut butter on the end (if they have peanut butter) a squeeky toy and use that for her reward....a few seconds of playtime when she takes a few steps not pushing into you. You can use a target stick to help get her started. Teach her how to touch the end of the stick. You probably read about it in one of those books. Only reward her when she's walking without pushing on you. Don't talk to her otherwise. A lot of people talk too much when training and they're inadvertently reinforcing behavior they don't want. Simply make good things happen when she takes even one or two nice steps. Reinforce very, very frequently so she can eliminate the other behavior variables. (remember that she's guessing)
 

Doberluv

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#12
Imogen - Mixed breed. She's either excited or worried when we go for a walk. She whines most of the time and is constantly looking at me. She's secure enough in the yard, but is very unsure of herself anywhere else. She heels fine, sits on command, and is the first one to come when called. I'm trying to get her to feel more secure while walking, so she gets treats when she's not constantly looking at me....(opposite to what I've read - which says we need to reinforce eye contact). I stop where there are no distractions and give her a good scratch when she's calm, or brush her a bit since she loves both.
She may not have had enough socialization or it's just her temperament...and that's why she's insecure outside of your yard. She'll probably always be a little timid that way, but I expect you can modify some of that. You can try taking her just a little ways, trying to not overwhelm her with outside stimuli all at once....little by little increase it. Baby steps. I think that's fine to give her treats in association with feeling more secure. Don't feed her if you think she's scared at all. Try not to be feeling apprehensive yourself or anticipating her insecurity. She can read you like a book, the slightest body language coming from you, your attitudes, everything. I'd start right outside of your yard and play her favorite game, use her favorite toy and come home WHEN she's having a particularly good time. End it while she's having a secure time. Reward for that=coming back to the yard. Don't bring her back when she's particularly uncomfortable...don't reinforce that. And gradually go further away from your yard. Eye contact is good. She gets information from you and that is what she needs. Let her see how happy and confident you are, how unworried. I wouldn't worry too much about whether she looks at you or not, personally.

Negra - Mixed breed. She's huge, Imogen's daughter, (looks nothing like her) is very similar to a black lab, but much stockier. She's pulling on the lead. A lot. We don't get more than a couple of feet and I stop, wait (she couldn't care less) and start again. She takes 2 steps and pulls again. She heeled just fine with a choke collar (for lack of a better name) but I'm considering picking up a harness for her the next time I go to the States for dog food. I'm at a loss with her. We don't get far with the walk or training due to the pulling. She sits and stays well. She learned to sit when someone approaches in two days. She knows there's a treat in it for her....

If she takes two steps and then pulls again, reinforce her after one step of not pulling. Reinforce for every step she takes which is not pulling. Stop when she pulls, wait for her to give you the slightest bit of slack and resume walking, another treat for one or two steps. You can make lots of turns, turn back and walk the same path you just made. Keep your leash about 3 ft. long. Practice attention training at home. Eye contact = treat every time. After she is looking at you a lot, add a cue, "watch me." Or use her name. Say it simultaneously with her looking at you for a long time, then try it ahead of time. Increase the length of time she gazes at you gradually....before she gets the treat. Try to reinforce her before she looks away. Set her up to succeed. Then use that attention training while walking. Always, always practice anything in low distraction areas first until the dog is very good at it and then add a small distraction, then another gradually.

Twist - Mixed breed rescue dog. He's my oldest (10 years) and does everything wonderfully. His treat is the alone time with me. You can tell that he just loves to get away from the rest of the pack. He gets treats but only a couple since he's not very interested in them generally.
He sounds neat! Be sure and practice each dog separately, just in case you're trying to do this with them all together.

By the way, the treats I'm using are from a recipe that my aunt passed on to me. It's made with baby food and a bit of bacon grease and dried milk. They love them, but with 6 dogs it takes me most of a Saturday morning to make enough bite sized cookies to last a week. In Mexico, they don't sell dog treats. The problem is that now they're aware of the treats that are always in my pocket and dance around for them or sit in front of me while walking around the ranch so they'll get one. Has anyone had this problem? It's like a circus sometimes and yesterday I stopped walking since I was laughing so hard. They were all doing something to get a treat. One or two sitting, Milla "smiling", Lucky trying to shake a paw...it was crazy. All I wanted to do was wander around the trees with them all!
LOL. Yes, they learn how to train us, don't they. My dogs get pretty excited too, but I don't mind. Well, you can teach them that the way to get treats is not what they're doing. LOL. You can do a little exercise. Hold a treat in your closed fist. Let them mouth your hand, sniff, lick but keep it closed. Finally, they'll step back and look at you. When they step away and act calm, perhaps sit, don't open that hand, but get a treat from elsewhere; your other pocket sometimes, a table top another time and feed them. Show them that just because you have treats on you, doesn't mean that's where they come from and certainly they do not get a treat if they're behaving in such a hyper way or way that you don't like. Wait for calm, polite sitting, then reward from a secret, hidden place. LOL. (yeah, right)

Well, if you made it this far you're patient! This is where I'm at right now. Each one of my dogs is at a different place.

My experience with training has been everything from shock collars (that only lasted a day or so and it's now somewhere in the storageroom collecting dust), "training" collars (choke collars) - which (gulp) actually worked on a couple of the dogs, and lots and lots of positive reinforcement. I'm a teacher so I can see the benefits of using positive reinforcement not only with dogs, but with children. Learning is learning as far as I'm concerned, we have to motivate in order to educate. Hopefully I'm on the right track.
I'm glad you gave up the shock collars. They are soooooo nasty and harmful. You're doing a wonderful job and with 6 dogs! I think your teaching background will help you a lot! Yes, positive reinforcement is in line with scientific learning theory and that is shown to be most effective for learning and for being happy while learning. Way to go! I'm sure I probably left something out and hopefully more suggestions will come along.

Your suggestions, comments, whatever, are welcome. I'll update in a week or so with any progress that I'm able to make. I promise it will be a shorter post!
Don't worry about long posts. Please......????? I don't want to be the only one. LOL. Can't wait for an update!
 

TheWholePack

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#13
Doberluv, thanks for such a great reply! You gave me a lot of information to work with and I'll start applying it this afternoon.

I have a clicker, but have yet to use it. (Sometimes it feels like juggling between the lead and the treats so I have yet to try the clicker!) I think I'll practice with Twist, my 10 year old that is a joy to walk with. Once I get the timing down I'll start using it with the others little by little.

You asked about heeling. I only want the dogs to heel for about a block when we walk on a paved road. Although there is very little traffic (and no sidewalk) occasionally a car comes around the corner and speeds by us. This part of the walk is all heel only for the safety of both of us. When we are in the fields or dirt roads or paths it's the "free" prompt and they're able to move about on an 8 foot training lead that I use on our walks. I never take them off the lead while we're walking. Too often we've been startled my those poor dogs that my neighbor leaves out to wreak havock that seem to lurk around.

With 6 each training session is about 20 minutes a day one-on-one. At other times we are all together and training is going on but it's more like group therapy! So it is baby steps!

Thanks for the book tips.....Amazon.com is loving me lately!

The peanut butter idea is great! Only the Blue Heeler (Lucky) plays with toys. The rest are indifferent. But I'll bet the peanut butter reward will be like hitting the jackpot for them!

Thanks for the encouragement!
 

Doberluv

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#14
Instead of the clicker, you can use a marker word, a word that you don't use for anything else. It is only used when followed by a treat. You have to prime it. In other words repeat many times in different contexts the word, treat, word, treat until she looks at you expectently, as if she knows a treat is forthcoming when she hears that word. She must make the association between the conditioned reinforcer (word or clicker) and the primary reinforcer (treat) before you start putting it into practice.
Here's a great link:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

If your dog is pulling at any time, I recommend keeping the leash shorter than 8 ft because he gets too out of focus with that much freedom....just for a while until he learns not to make tension in the leash. It's easier when the dog's attention is on you, at least part way, while he's enjoying the walk too. I usually give a cue "go sniff" when I am giving permission for the dog to go check out a bush or whatever. Otherwise he needs to do "nice walkies." LOL. I'm sort of silly with my dogs. Good luck.
 

Mariana

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#15
Hi!!!! I am Mexican. I live in Mexico city. I just read your other posts and I see you`ve got problems finding a good vet.
I would suggest you go to this site.-www.ammvepe.com
These are the best vets in Mexico.
I can also recommend you an excelent holistic vet....he´s an accupuncturist and he is really great. He lives in Mexico city, but it might be easier than going to Alberta! Let me know if you want his information. I can tell you he is excellent...he has done great thing with my dogs.
I also know about several positive trainers. They live here too, but I am sure they are more than willing to help.
Well...let me know if you need anything,
Mariana
 

TheWholePack

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#17
Mariana thank you for the information. I live in Monterrey, a little far from where you're at but I'll check on the website to see what's there!

It's great to hear about someone else on the forum from Mexico that shares a love of dogs! Muchas gracias!

If you could provide me with contact information for the trainers and vet in Mexico City, perhaps they would know like-minded people here in Monterrey that I can contact.
 

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