The American Vet Society of Animal Behavior Speaks out against Milan type trainers

[Dekka]

The American Vet Society of Animal Behavior Speaks out against Milan type trainers and the dominance myth.

A really good article. The AVAB speaks out against the dominance myth and recommends vets to NOT refer clients to trainers who use force/coercion or Milan type methods.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

AVSAB is concerned with the recent
re-emergence of dominance theory and
forcing dogs and other animals into
submission as a means of preventing and
correcting behavior problems.

opcorn:

 

[Doberluv]

That's very good. And it's good that such a large body (AVSAB) has written this. Now....if only National Geographic would have a little respect and get Milan off the air. It all boils down to money for them. Sick, really. They could still have a good viewer population by putting someone who knows dog behavior on their channel.

 

[Dekka]

Ah but I think with more and more respected professionals coming forward, CM will loose much of his fan base.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

Ah but I think with more and more respected professionals coming forward, CM will loose much of his fan base.

Then how about yet another?

The following link contains an article written by Andrew Luescher, he is a veterinarian (DVM) as well as an animal behaviorist. He runs the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue University. National Geographic sent him a few tapes of Milan's show to review. He was not at all happy with what he saw. A couple excerpts:

"Milan's techniques are outdated and unacceptable not only to the veterinary community, but also to dog trainers."

"The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: People will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets."

Here's the link to the full article, also in PDF form:
http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

IMO CM techniques and devotees hasve set dog training back DECADES with the general public.

Almost every single time I am out with my dogs someone mentions this guy's name to me.

 

[release the hounds]

Personally I don't think they guy has done much of anything other than make some money. Most people think all you should have to do is snap your fingers or shhh at a dog to make it do what you want anyway, with or without CM. If its not that easy they get rid of it, they don't care to, nor have they ever cared to really learn about anything which is why it seems most Americans have a throw a way attitude towards everything from homes and cars to dogs and spouses.

 

[Doberluv]

I get that too Red. Someone actually said to me, "You must watch the dog whisperer" when I was walking with my dogs and they were walking nicely. Gawd! I hope it isn't true, but it seems people think, if they see a dog that is relatively well behaved that we must all be watching the dog whisperer. Please say it isn't so. The general public can't distinguish between a dog happy to comply and lively with a dog that does something right or else. Then of course, I felt compelled to go off on an explanation or another way to put it, a rant. LOL. But the good news is, whenever I get into one of these kinds of conversations, most people say, "Oh really? Well, that makes sense." So, if the word gets out more, maybe more people will not fall for the schmooze and learn something about how to get behavior they want in a more effective and kinder way.

I totally agree Released.

Ah but I think with more and more respected professionals coming forward, CM will loose much of his fan base.

I sure hope more trainers who understand the way dogs really are do come forward. Victoria Stilwell is a start even though I think she's wrong about involving the hierarchy/pack thing with domestic dogs. She does use the basic techniques which are relevant to learning behavior.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

They could still have a good viewer population by putting someone who knows dog behavior on their channel.

NGC, among others, had the chance for a training show with Ian Dunbar as host. Nobody thought his face and image would be "marketable".

But hope springs eternal. There is Victoria Stilwell's show.

Yes, she does talk about dominance/pack theory ... but perhaps that's actually a wise thing because the public is not likely to easily give up on that idea. Especially with the likes of CM stilll on the air and his getting so much publicity beyond just from NGC. But as you said Carrie, VS's training techniques are right. She does not use flooding and punishment like CM.

 

[drmom777]

Anyone who thinks CM has had no effect should visit my dog park. At least once a day someone alpha rolls a dog. A really stupid maneuver anyway--but idiocy in a dog park. What do you think happens? Six other dogsd seize the opposrtunity to come sniff and mess with the dog being held down. And the same people do this over and over again. some of these dogs have the patience of saints putting up with this stuff.

 

[release the hounds]

I'm sure people reference him all the time, but has he really changed a whole lot? All I ever see is people jerking yelling swatting, and giving up dogs anyway, CM or not. Except for those of us rare enough that actually give a **** and take time to learn.

 

[release the hounds]

Yes, she does talk about dominance/pack theory ... but perhaps that's actually a wise thing because the public is not likely to easily give up on that idea. .

Lots of people haven't given up on dominance/pack theory. I happen to believe there is a lot there that some people today don't want to see. Either because they just don't want to, or because of how it's been applied in the past and to get people to break free from that train of thought they shun it.

With me, I think it has been the application of the theory in regards to training, and its absolute reliance on such "dominance" in all aspects is where it really is wrong. I don't think dominance and pack theory is all a bunch of hooey though, not by a long shot.

 

[Maxy24]

It's a shame how the relationship people have with their dog is being ruined, it's a though people are seeing their dog as constantly threatening them. Every behavior they don't like their dog to do is supposed to be their dog trying to control the human and be better than the human, what an awful way to view your pet.

I was going to do an internship with a pet store dog trainer. The first (and I must say the last) day i went he talked to me and talked about how they like to start using as little compulsion training as possible and move up to more as the dog's need it. And added, "once we needed a training collar on a 12 month old puppy, you just could not get control of him otherwise". I didn't know the situation so i didn't let that bother me too much.

Then the trainer taught the class how to alpha role their puppies and to do it whenever they need to show him who's boss, when he's not listening or misbehaving etc. and added that when he lets his dogs outside his female shepherd goes out and shows her dominance to all the dogs and then he goes up to her and flips her onto her back so she remembers that just because she's in charge of them, I'M still in charge of her, so she does not get too full of herself" and then I wanted to puke and felt like crying the whole time as i watched two little girls learn to flip their pup onto his back and hold him down as he struggled to get free of their grasp.
Then the elderly, sweet man (bless his heart) who spoke up and said to the trainer "What, did you have some big brother picking on you all the time?" which the trainer did not like much at all. the trainer spent the rest of the class ragging on everything that man did.
I seriously wanted to give the old guy a big hug then drag him out and tell him never to come back, heck I'd train his dog, it's just the basics.
He had one man grab his pup by the scruff lift his front paws off the ground and shake him every time he made any noise.

He then concluded by telling everyone that if they have any trouble with their dog not listening that they can come and talk to him about getting a training collar put on them.

I never came back, I really hope the older guy didn't either.

 

[Dekka]

With me, I think it has been the application of the theory in regards to training, and its absolute reliance on such "dominance" in all aspects is where it really is wrong. I don't think dominance and pack theory is all a bunch of hooey though, not by a long shot.

How do you apply pack theory to an animal that in its wild state doesn't live in packs? Or is it you apply a humanized version of it cause we force some of them to live in packs?

 

[ma-vie-en-vert]

Ugh, Milan drives me crazy. My friend just got a pyrenees and her parents watch The Dog Whisperer ALL THE TIME and I'm scared how they're gonna train puppy. My friend is pretty smart though and I've educated her on how his methods are not great at all, so hopefully it'll be okay.

 

[Maxy24]

My hope is that with a dog like a Pyr who will IMO NOT respond to harsh methods they will find themselves looking into alternate methods and find something like clicker training. Pyrs are one of those "I do what's in MY best interest always, and don't care what you want me to do" type breeds because they were bred to work very independently from people. My friend has one, def. not my kind of dog, he's just so unresponsive, does not seem to get excited, I like spazy dogs lol. They have trouble getting him to listen without showing food, I told them they should do clicker training, they haven't so far but after he failed his CGC yesterday (he's just a pup though, very good but he would not listen to the sit command) and my friend wants me to help with their training (so we can set up the meeting another person without the dog going to say high, walking calmly by other dogs/meeting someone with a dog without rushing to meet dog etc.) and I might throw some clicking in there

 

[ma-vie-en-vert]

Yeah me and my friend have already started training her, she knows how to sit quite well. I know what you mean about them being unresponsive though. She's kind of frustrating. Not my type of dog either.

 

[Maxy24]

Yeah for some reason I'd rather have the type of dog who leaps all over me and is in my face than the type that seems indifferent to me, I'm not an aloof dog person.
That said I downright like annoying animals, I have Siamese cats and encourage them to meow, paw at me, bump me and for Willie, leap into my arms (though we did have to retrain him not to jump from behind because we cannot catch him that way and then it ends badly for everyone). they are constantly by me, they have figured out how to not trip me (or I've simply become better able to avoid frolicking kitties since they still trip the rest of the house).

Don't get me wrong, Pyrs and other aloof dogs are great dogs for many people and you can even tell that the dog enjoys the attention but there is just less reaction. He simply stands/sits and lets you pet, no leaning or looking up at you if you stop to shove their face into your hand and stare longingly into your eyes (I nearly melted when the Cane Corso I met at a rally-O competition did this to me when I stopped petting him, i was in love! lol) just not my type.

 

[release the hounds]

I've seen dogs pack up, in the wild. People can try and convince that it doesn't happen, but I've got some pretty strong stuff that says they wrong. I've seen dogs pack up and hunt. Then of course you can use the humanized version because that is the environment my dogs are forced to live in. Right or wrong, Labratory studies or not, it doesn't really matter, but reality is my dogs live with me not in a theory, and they have a very clear pack structure and heirarchy. I am not heavy handed at all with my dogs an they do look to me when necessary for leadership.

besides do we really know what dogs would live like in a "wild state"? I mean i've read the coppingers and others and they've studied a couple populations of wild dogs that have filled a particular niche and drew the conclusions they wanted to from that. I'm not trying to discredit them or say they haven't added a lot the debate as people try to unravel the history of dogs and humans. Not by any means, but their theory and latest book do make some big jumps and leave out many plausible explanations in order to make things fit their model.

Just by simple observations of dogs I can also say that if they parameters were changed and these dogs couldn't survive with such loose relationships with each other, they most certainly would pack up if that meant surival, and have the tools in which to survive and make that transition to that of a "pack" animal very seemlessly.

How about the wild dogs in Africa? Dogs yes? Pack animals yes? My animals great me and each other like any pack animal would. They protect members of their pack from non pack memebers. I guess you could call us a clan, family, band of brothers, conglomerate, symbiotic species living in cohabitation, it doesn't really matter. We have to live together and get along no matter what people want to lable us as. Pack seems to fit for me.

I apply it much like you do probably. I"m fair, consistent, interact and engage with my dogs so they learn how we can communicate, I let them do what they want, I make them do stuff for food or free time, I make them walk, I let them run free, I make them wait to go out the door, I let them run me over to get out the door, I let them be dogs, but when something aboslutely NEEDS to be done they all look to me for direction and obey commands. I guess that makes me their pack leader.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I think that if you believe in pack theory with pet dogs and feel like it is a very important part of training and living with dogs, than you will see evidence of that in your interractions with the dogs. Personally, I believe that IF dogs lived in packs at one time, it's not really relevant as far as my relationship with my dogs today.

My roommate's dog won't walk through the hallway if my cat is in the hallway. Proponents of pack theory might say that the cat is the Alpha, and the dog is simply being submissive to the cat and giving her her space. Personally, I think the cat's just a bully - when he walks by her, most of the time she jumps out and paws at him. Guess I'm just too much a proponent of operant conditioning.

My dogs also look to me for direction and commands. Does that make me their "pack leader"? No, I don't think so. I do see myself as a leader, but more like a parent. I'm not part of their pack - they know I'm not a dog - I'm above their pack. Just like how a parent is the leader over the kids because she's the parent, not because she's "top kid."

But again, that's just how I see the relationship. I'm not saying this is the "right" way, It's just another way of explaining the same situation.

 

[corgipower]

My roommate's dog won't walk through the hallway if my cat is in the hallway. Proponents of pack theory might say that the cat is the Alpha, and the dog is simply being submissive to the cat and giving her her space. Personally, I think the cat's just a bully - when he walks by her, most of the time she jumps out and paws at him. Guess I'm just too much a proponent of operant conditioning.

LOL...Ares likes to get to the top of the steps first and then turn and watch and when he turns and faces the stairs at the top, Morgan quits going up them. Some would say Ares is being alpha and guarding the staircase :yikes:

Ares has longer legs and takes the stairs two at a time. he then looks at Morgan, probably thinking, "come on, slow poke!" and Morgan probably thinks, "I can't get to the top of the stairs because there's you're in my way, and I don't want to have to turn around, so I'll just wait at the bottom until you move." It's actually quite comical.

As for packs, yea, I've seen wild dog packs. And while I haven't spent huge amounts of time studying them, I would say they are very loosely formed. I'm pretty sure that if my four dogs were in the wild, they wouldn't all be happy to hang around with each other.

But applying pack theory to dog training is usually counter-productive. I'm not a dog, I can't behave like a dog, my dogs don't view me as a dog. My opinion is that dogs and humans have a long history of working together. They each gained from the other. Dogs received shelter and food, humans received protection and help with hunting and pest control. Both received companionship. With selective breeding, we've developed dogs into a species that does certain things. Dogs that don't respond to human leadership are usually removed from the gene pool.

I'm not sure that I'm always the leader. If my dog wants to play, he comes over and sits or lies down, seeking a reward. Yes, I've taught him to offer specific behaviors, but he's controlling the situation at that time by doing what he knows will get him a game of tug.