saturday was awesome!

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Doberluv

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This thread is a waste of our time and a waste of other members' time who need and want our support and help. This is nothing but attention seeking behavior so this will be my last reply.

No amount of education, no amount of reasoning or logic will impact the OP what so ever, who is not only atrociously ignorant of dog behavior, knows nothing about training whatsoever, knows nothing about wolf behavior, which is irrelevant anyhow, but also obviously lacks empathy. That, my friends is the essence of the whole thing IMO. No one with empathy could do or approve of treating an animal with such abuse. Without empathy, the person can not put themselves in another's shoes. Therefore, information is not processed in a way that most of us understand. If you can not put yourself in another's shoes, how can you judge what effect an action will have on an individual, be it an animal or human? It doesn't matter what the facts are, what PHDs in behavior say, what research and experienced dog owners and trainers say. It has no effect whatsoever on an individual who totally lacks empathy. All the emotions are skewed. In fact, my very harsh words are likely to have no effect on this person. There are no emotions there to receive or process such a tongue lashing.

Bottom line: Logic, reasoning, information from reliable sources, demonstration...none of it is processed normally because you need empathy to make sense of all those things.

That said, this is a waste of time and turning into nothing but attention seeking behavior, a classic sign of narcissism.

People who resort to beating up animals are the lowest of the lows in my book. I don't care how I come off. I've had enough of reading about your flaunting and bragging of mistreatment of dogs. You just might get your face bitten off one day, if not by your dog, by someone who loves dogs and sees you beating yours with a stick. I know, if I saw someone doing that, I'd take their dog away from them and kick their a$$.
 

Boemy

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A subdominant wolf can be identified in the pack through its body language as well. Subdominant wolves will lower its body, tuck its tail, and pull its ears back when confronting a wolf of higher standing. At the bottom of the hierarchy is the omega wolf. This wolf can be either male or female. This wolf is used as an outlet for aggression for the rest of the wolves, especially the alpha. The alpha wolf will decide if and when other wolves are allowed to eat. The omega wolf usually goes last and must pick over what everyone else has taken. The omega also initiates play.
You don't own a wolf. You own a dog, an animal that has been selectively bred for thousands of years to be happy obeying humans and learning their commands. You don't need to BEAT obedience into your dog like you're doing. It is a DOG. It already wants to please you. Stop hitting it--YOU DON'T NEED TO.

Incidentally, people who are raising "tame" wolves and wolf hybrids are told to NEVER HIT THEIR ANIMALS.

Never use prong collars or choke chains. If you are able to properly train your animal these are unnecessary and can cause problems. The only methods I've ever seen work on wolves are positive reinforcement, not punishment. Also, one bad experience on a leash (or anywhere) can ruin the animal for future handling
http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/wantwolf-jm.html
 

doberkim

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I don't know that they're being suckered into believing it. I don't know this guy or what he does, I know a few of his protection pics have me scratching my head about what' hes doing.

But from the words of Ian Dunbar himself, there is a big drop off in reliability in OB performances in the past few years, and it seems more people doing those competitions are "positive only" trainers. But we've (not you and i, but this board) had this discussion a thousand times before.
I believe most of the drop off has been that obedience is a sport of precision - to do well, you need to strive to attain perfection. You can't hope to place or get an OTCH with 180's as scores, even though its qualifying. And there are so many other venues that do NOT require that precision and strict training. In fact, the fact that there are so many other venues PERIOD mean people can not do something else and not even DO obedience - Ob 30 years ago was the only game in town. Specifically AKC ob. Now you have agility, rally, freestyle, you have UKC, you have APDT, you have CDSP, you've got WWKC - so many other venues and orgs that AKC has lost its stronghold on traditional obedience.

He can go on a down-stay with 20 other dogs moving around him and not break the command i gave him. If he saw another dog tonight he would not care. He trusts me that that other dog means nothing and will do nothing.

My dog does not fear me or my stave. He does have the ability to play. He plays with me and mickey all the time. If anything it has made him want to be near me more.
let's not kid ourselves. Your dog is afraid of being hit in the butt again with the stave - that is why his behavior has "changed". All you have done is add stress to the situation.

Dogs are NEVER CURED OF AGGRESSION.
 

doberkim

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I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
Wrong - my dog LOVES obedience. My dog DRIVES me to work. My dog will put himself in heel position and ASK to work. I've got a 90 lb doberman that throws himself at heel and barks until we start heeling. I've got a dog that stares holes into my face with his perfect attention to get what he wants. When I bring out jumps he takes them on his own repeatedly. When I pull out his dumbbell he starts circling, jumping and barking in his excitement for the retrieve.

If that isn't loving what he does, I don't know what is.
 

doberkim

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Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:


It proves a lot to me. Your dog should be able to handle those exercises with no breaks if he's trained the way you say he is. Richling's K-9 can do it. One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

And the down-stay that long is to advance the dog in its training.

Lordy, one training session and you are a walking billboard for this guy. Seems his training worked better on YOU than it did Sly. Has to say a lot - someone falls so quickly for the first thing that works. It's also an easy way out - correcting to get what you want instead of putting in the time and building a relationship.

What my dog SHOULD be able to handle is a variety of things happily and trusting that his human counterpart will lead him in a fair and just manner.
 

DanL

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I'm not going to comment too much on the training methods. I'm of the opinion that there is no one best way to train, and you need to find what works for your dog. What they are doing is not the way to train most dogs, but for working dogs, some of those methods are going to be used. Hershel asked what the point of a 3 hour down was. For a protection dog, it might need to be in one place for 8 hours at a time, alert and focused on it's task. That's the point. A house dog will probably never need to do that, but a dog that is on a job might, and it needs to know what is expected of it. It's all about discipline. At one of Daisy's classes, I had Gunnar with me, I had him in a down for 45 minutes while 16 dogs were walking all around him. What was the point? I didn't want him wandering around the paddock while the class was going on, and it was 90 degrees out- far too hot to leave him in a crate or in the van. My goal for him is I want to be able to give a command, have him obey it, and not break until I tell him he can, no matter how long or what the conditions are.

Whatz wrote "I'd have to say after looking at his site, I do like the agility course, but not much else. It is hard on a dog, its supposed to be, but it serves a purpose to what we do. Problem solving skills for the dog, learning to work thru stress, learning to work with their handler, and building confidence."

That is how I feel about that course. It'd be awesome to take Gunnar on. We don't have to call it an agility course, since that seems to offend those who do "real" agility. Let's call it an obstacle course. If these guys are training working dogs, police/protection dogs, those dogs need to be able to work in any type of environment, and that kind of obstacle course will help them feel confident when they are put into a stressful situation while they are on the job.

To me, the kind of training they are doing isn't for everyone, and isn't for every dog. I wouldn't take anything less than a stable working dog to a place like that. Certainly your normal household pet dog wouldn't need to be subjected to that kind of stress. I'm sure most of you would cringe at the training we started with Gunnar, with handlers firing guns over the dog's head, cracking whips right next to them, smacking the dogs with rattle sticks while they are on a bite, having the dog go after the decoy over a wall or thru a window or over some barrels stacked up. Obviously Gunnar isn't at that point yet, he's months away from being there, but he's being put in stress situations that are based on his training level, and as he progresses the stress levels will increase. If a police dog or protection dog can't hold a bite while the bad guy is hitting them, or if they are scared to jump over a wall to get the bad guy, they are no good for the job. Training the dog to be able to keep focused on it's task with that kind of physical distraction is a basic element for a dog doing that kind of work. No one is hitting the dogs to make them obey commands, that's for sure, but the dogs are subjected to physical and mental stress and are pushed hard while on the field, to condition them to being stable and focused in any situation they might find themselves in. I think that is the background these guys come from, and for them to accept house pets into their program is probably not a good move, but for training a stable working type dog, they are doing what many other trainers are doing, whether you agree or not.
 

Doberluv

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Dan, I believe this is an Aussie, isn't it? How many Aussies are used to take down criminals? This dog isn't being trained for police or military work. This is an amatuer dog owner who is impressed with machine like precision. It's disgusting.

Anyhow....many police departments are turning to positive method training for their dogs. Steve White?

Mistreating an animal, hitting it with a stick to intimidate him, to stop him from going after another dog is not proper training. It's abuse.

I think the human race gets carried away with the means to the end mentality. To enslave another species by way of abuse (and this is abuse) is immoral and disgusting. The ends do not justify the means, no matter what benefits mankind. (the superior species???) It isn't right.

I hope your dog isn't being hit with sticks and made to stay in one position for 3 hours. Nothing wrong with dogs working but IMO, not to the point of making them miserable. There is nothing natural about staying in one place for hours and hours. What earthly reason justifies that? Put a dog behind a fence where it can move, but is secure. Tying him up would even be preferrable. At least he could move. But to make him stay in ONE position for hours and hours? No way is that nice.

You're interested in police dog training. I recommend you look at Steve White. It is also important to keep something in mind. That is, that most dogs on this forum are pets, some show dogs, some agility and other sport dogs. It's important to keep those things separate....not that people get the mistaken idea that it is a proper way to deal with their pet dogs....dogs who may be having aggression problems. Aggression is never treated with aggression by behaviorists who know dog behavior. There are studies up the ying yang about that. Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info. if you like. It's a lot to read, but interesting.
 
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whatszmatter

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Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info.
Really, yours, you found that and put it all together, or you copied and pasted from another poster on another board??

[mod edit: other websites to be advertised in our other websites forum]
 
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DanL

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Dan, I believe this is an Aussie, isn't it? How many Aussies are used to take down criminals? This dog isn't being trained for police or military work. This is an amatuer dog owner who is impressed with machine like precision. It's disgusting.

I hope your dog isn't being hit with sticks and made to stay in one position for 3 hours. Nothing wrong with dogs working but IMO, not to the point of making them miserable. There is nothing natural about staying in one place for hours and hours. What earthly reason justifies that?

You're interested in police dog training. I recommend you look at Steve White. It is also important to keep something in mind. That is, that most dogs on this forum are pets, some show dogs, some agility and other sport dogs. It's important to keep those things separate....not that people get the mistaken idea that it is a proper way to deal with their pet dogs....dogs who may be having aggression problems. Aggression is never treated with aggression by behaviorists who know dog behavior. There are studies up the ying yang about that. Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info. if you like. It's a lot to read, but interesting.
Like I said, I wouldn't recommend that guy and his training methods for a house pet, but his obstacle course is pretty cool! You also have to consider, do they do the same training on every dog? Is every dog required to do 3 hour downs? I hope not, not if they are training dogs for the general public along with police/protection dogs.

Gunnar isn't being hit with a stick for discipline. I'd never allow that. But, if his training advances to the point where he is being hit with a stick to distract him from his target and task, that is part of the training. It's not a discipline thing, it's a major distraction to try and get the dog off his target. The guys I'm working with use all methods of training devices- prong collars, harnesses, agitation collars, tie backs, long lines, etc. when and where applicable, but all of the training is done in small steps with rewards, praise, and positive outcomes for the dog. The dog always wins the game and goes off the field feeling good about what he just did. No dog is pushed past his level of experience. There is no "yank and crank" going on.

There is probably no reason for a house pet to remain in a down for 3 hours. I can clearly see a need for a personal protection dog to remain in one place for hours at a time. Think about the executive who is in an office and has visitors in and out all day. The dog is there, ready to do his job. He can't be wandering around the room or in a cage.

I'll look up Steve White, thanks for that name.
 

Doberluv

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Really, yours, you found that and put it all together, or you copied and pasted from another poster on another board??
Whatsza.....zip it and chill out. My tolerance of your continued disruption of this forum is coming to it's end. Obviously, I meant to look at my thread here on Chaz to read that info. Of course I copy and pasted it from elsewhere. So freakin' what....an oversight that I didn't specify that. Why would I care about taking some kind of imagined credit? It's all someone else's writing. I simply posted it because it's useful information.
 
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whatszmatter

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Whatsza.....shut up and chill out. Obviously, I meant to look at my thread here on Chaz to read that info. Of course I copy and pasted it from elsewhere. So freakin' what.
just saying, you might want to give the person credit, that is a member of that org. That posted the info and edited it, instead of making it seem like it was your own research that uncovered all of this. only seems fair to me.
 

Doberluv

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Do you ever have anything constructive to add to this forum? It is quite apparent to me that your main goal and purpose for being here is to antagonize and bully, not only me, but other members. It's gone on for a very long time. This trollish behavior is going to stop.
 

Charliesmommy

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Do you ever have anything constructive to add to this forum? It is quite apparent to me that your main goal and purpose for being here is to antagonize and bully, not only me, but other members. It's gone on for a very long time. This trollish behavior is going to stop.

Don't know what the big problem is here, and don't really care to get involved, but will interject that Whatszmatter has given me some good advice on this forum, via PMs and I hope he continues to be a member here.
 

Doberluv

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That's good to hear Charliesmommy that you got to be an exception. I'm glad you got the help you needed, truly I am. I guess you haven't been here as long as I have or seen a pretty steady and consistant pattern and complaints from other members.

That said, I think this thread has gotten off topic to the point of uselessness. If anyone wants to start a new thread to discuss whatever, feel free.
 
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