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Ok, so you cant "blame" a sin you have committed on your genes, but even so, WHY would god knowingly create a man to have gay tendencies?? I guess god made a mistake? I thought that was impossible.
I know its going to be argued that there is no REAL proof that being gay is influenced by your genes, but what if? There IS a possibility that being gay is influenced or caused by genes.
I think a lot of people believe that being gay is something that you choose to do as apposed to something you are BORN with. Imagine that you are absolutely unattracted to the opposite sex like how you feel about the same sex right now (hope that makes sense, lol). Would you force yourself to engage in a heterosexual relationship even though you are not even attracted to the person you are with? Just because its the "right" thing to do according to the bible. It would be just as hard to force yourself to be with the same sex if you are straight. To me, that is NOT a happy or good way to live your life, in fact... you would be living a lie. And thats exactly what we are telling gay people to do, otherwise they are going to hell. I believe in god, but I do not believe he is the way Christians say he is. Sorry folks, just my opinion. Not trying to offend anyone!
I know its going to be argued that there is no REAL proof that being gay is influenced by your genes, but what if? There IS a possibility that being gay is influenced or caused by genes.
I think a lot of people believe that being gay is something that you choose to do as apposed to something you are BORN with. Imagine that you are absolutely unattracted to the opposite sex like how you feel about the same sex right now (hope that makes sense, lol). Would you force yourself to engage in a heterosexual relationship even though you are not even attracted to the person you are with? Just because its the "right" thing to do according to the bible. It would be just as hard to force yourself to be with the same sex if you are straight. To me, that is NOT a happy or good way to live your life, in fact... you would be living a lie. And thats exactly what we are telling gay people to do, otherwise they are going to hell. I believe in god, but I do not believe he is the way Christians say he is. Sorry folks, just my opinion. Not trying to offend anyone!
I often wonder if in fact there are more gay people in the world or whether because of times changing we just hear about it more.. I remember there were always "Bachelors and spinsters" and my parents saying.. "Watch out for Miss "Blah" on the way to school because she's a bit funny"
Just because it's been emitted from the bible doesn't make it untrue, I believe that there have always been gay people. I can see why the whole male, female relationship thing is so well documented, especially from a procreation point of view, and in times when infant mortality was virillent then of course people would be encouraged to procreate to expand the population.
Propaganda leaning towards procreation?? An interesting thought.
Just because it's been emitted from the bible doesn't make it untrue, I believe that there have always been gay people. I can see why the whole male, female relationship thing is so well documented, especially from a procreation point of view, and in times when infant mortality was virillent then of course people would be encouraged to procreate to expand the population.
Propaganda leaning towards procreation?? An interesting thought.
I can't see what the problem is....... Seriously, what difference does it make?
It's 2 adults making decisions about how they lead their life, they are harming NOBODY. NOONE.... they might hurt your eyes, but crikey...... I'd rather see 2 gay couples than 2 straight couples who are living a lie and unhappy because they feel pressured to fit into society.
Why deny them the choice to fall in love? To feel sexually, mentally, physically fulfilled?
How does it affect anyone else?
It's 2 adults making decisions about how they lead their life, they are harming NOBODY. NOONE.... they might hurt your eyes, but crikey...... I'd rather see 2 gay couples than 2 straight couples who are living a lie and unhappy because they feel pressured to fit into society.
Why deny them the choice to fall in love? To feel sexually, mentally, physically fulfilled?
How does it affect anyone else?
This will answer several of your posts... And I have replied to this kind of arguement many times already in this thread.
First, I do not disagree that science may have found "proof" there is a "gay" gene. If there is, please refer me to your source material. Nobody else has yet done that.
Second... God made man PERFECT. MAN then altered His perfection by sinning.
Third... God has made all males with urges to have sex with as many women as possible. He has made all males with the urges to fight and kill and do whatever. Does that urge make it OK to do so? JUST because you have a itch, does not mean you have to scratch it.
To further point 3... God also made sugar. So if God made it, why is it bad to eat it so much?
God never promised us life would be easy. We ALL struggle with things that are sinful.
Do you believe in your TV? I bet you do not fully understand how your TV works, yet I bet you believe in that.
First, I do not disagree that science may have found "proof" there is a "gay" gene. If there is, please refer me to your source material. Nobody else has yet done that.
Second... God made man PERFECT. MAN then altered His perfection by sinning.
Third... God has made all males with urges to have sex with as many women as possible. He has made all males with the urges to fight and kill and do whatever. Does that urge make it OK to do so? JUST because you have a itch, does not mean you have to scratch it.
To further point 3... God also made sugar. So if God made it, why is it bad to eat it so much?
God never promised us life would be easy. We ALL struggle with things that are sinful.
Do you believe in your TV? I bet you do not fully understand how your TV works, yet I bet you believe in that.
"What if" arguements... Are you out of REAL arguements? LOL
IF God REALLY commanded us to do so and it was the way he wanted it, sure. But that is not the way it is. Notice I said if GOD commanded me to, not "a book". That is where people like you fail. You just keep proving, over and over and over again you have no idea what it means to have faith.
It is about WAY more than what is said in a book.
How does it effect anyone else?
My sisters relationship effects my entire family. Whenever we get together, it has to be on HER terms. In effect, she blackmails my mother with their child. "Either see things my way, or you are not welcome here."
How is that fair to my mother? How is it fair that my sister says, "see things my way or else"? Is that not what people of your thought process say about people like ME?
Dizzy... It tears my mother apart and that hurts. How shocking that you could not possibly see things from the other sides point of view. Ye of "open mind".
My sisters relationship effects my entire family. Whenever we get together, it has to be on HER terms. In effect, she blackmails my mother with their child. "Either see things my way, or you are not welcome here."
How is that fair to my mother? How is it fair that my sister says, "see things my way or else"? Is that not what people of your thought process say about people like ME?
Dizzy... It tears my mother apart and that hurts. How shocking that you could not possibly see things from the other sides point of view. Ye of "open mind".
Puckstop- You, of course, have a right to your opinion. I just hope you realize it IS an opinion. You are interpreting the scriptures one way. I interpret them another. You do not choose to obey every single word in the Bible, you choose which parts are relevant to modern life. I do too. I happen to firmly believe that my viewpoint is the correct one, and that life the way I try to live it is what God wants from me. I assume you feel the same. Therefore there will never be agreement on this issue, other than that I hope you will agree that we are both doing the best we can to live a good Christian life.
I think acceptance of other's goodwill on this issue is about the best we can hope for.
I think acceptance of other's goodwill on this issue is about the best we can hope for.
Puck, it was a question, not an argument. Thank you for answering it. It is amazing to me that your faith runs so deep that you would willingly do what would more then likely disgust you. I find that very interesting.
I really honestly asked a question so you did not have to throw in the whole "people like you" thing. Also, I have not failed at anything in my opinion. You are judging me for not believing what you believe and that is not fair. I asked out of pure interest, no malice.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-8424(19950606)92:12<5525:MOTW(G>2.0.CO;2-Q
Puckstop, you want proof that genes can contribute to homosexuality- come and get it!
Sure, to compare humans to fruitflies is like comparing apples to oranges. However, the fruitfly has been studied extensively because of its small DNA strain and genes. The human gene pool study is relatively new and understanding different gene markers etc, are daily coming to light. If genes can be found in one species that alters sexual orientation would it be crazy to beleive that it can be found in another?
Puckstop, I can't possibly come up with an arguement that would sway you from your belief system that stems from your faith. So I won't bother, but I am interested in hearing why God would make genetic markers for homosexuality when it is such a sin. Is it just another test? If God says that He will not give us more burden than we can carry, why make it every being of ones fibre?
Puckstop, you want proof that genes can contribute to homosexuality- come and get it!
Sure, to compare humans to fruitflies is like comparing apples to oranges. However, the fruitfly has been studied extensively because of its small DNA strain and genes. The human gene pool study is relatively new and understanding different gene markers etc, are daily coming to light. If genes can be found in one species that alters sexual orientation would it be crazy to beleive that it can be found in another?
Puckstop, I can't possibly come up with an arguement that would sway you from your belief system that stems from your faith. So I won't bother, but I am interested in hearing why God would make genetic markers for homosexuality when it is such a sin. Is it just another test? If God says that He will not give us more burden than we can carry, why make it every being of ones fibre?
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Your mothers choice is to be disgusted by her daughters natural feelings. Whatever happened to unconditional love for your child?
I am sorry, but if MY parents were disgusted if I was gay, then I would probably cut them out of my life too.
Are you suggesting she ruins her life to make you happy?
Or do her feelings not matter? And I HAVE seen the effect one persons life can have on a family, we are not without "drama" and "bad life choices" ourselves... and I have seen how this affected my gran... but fact is this - in both scenarios people are choosing to judge someone on who they share their bed with and who they fell in love with.
So if they want to be disgusted by it and make themselves and their own flesh and blood feel BAD for feeling emotions which they cannot and should not supress, then so be it.
I am sorry, but if MY parents were disgusted if I was gay, then I would probably cut them out of my life too.
Are you suggesting she ruins her life to make you happy?
Or do her feelings not matter? And I HAVE seen the effect one persons life can have on a family, we are not without "drama" and "bad life choices" ourselves... and I have seen how this affected my gran... but fact is this - in both scenarios people are choosing to judge someone on who they share their bed with and who they fell in love with.
So if they want to be disgusted by it and make themselves and their own flesh and blood feel BAD for feeling emotions which they cannot and should not supress, then so be it.
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Aha, but it does affect others.
To have a gay relative most certainly affects a family. What if that family does not believe in homosexuality? The relative *wants* them to accept their sin, but the family refuses. They do not abandon the person, they simply say they will not support the gay lifestyle. The gay relative then threatens to abandon *them* by not sharing in on family holiday gatherings and such, because the family doesn’t not accept homosexuality as correct?
All these gay pride parades *do* affect others. Men in thongs dancing around (including old men; something I really, really, *really* do NOT need to see), drag queens and kings (too much makeup, honey), etcetera. Do you think people really want their children to see men dancing around like strippers? I highly doubt it.
Those who disagree with homosexuality are often labeled “homophobesâ€. This is something that really makes me giggle, but at the same time gets on my nerves. The definition of “phobia†in Webster’s dictionary is as follows….
Phobia (n.) an irrational, excessive, and persistent fear of some particular thing or situation. Fear, dread, hatred. –phobic adj.
I am not scared of gay people. It’s not like when I meet a gay man I scream and run away yelling, “Don’t touch me!†Just because I have a different opinion, means I am a homophobe? What makes this even funnier is pretty much every gay person or gay supporter I’ve ever seen or met considers themselves to be very open-minded. But the minute someone simply says they do not agree with homosexuality (not that they hate gay people, or anything like that), an opinion much different than a gay person’s, they are labeled a homophobe.
Besides that, because I do not support homosexuality, I do not want to see it spread. I don’t want to see any sin spread, whether it be homosexuality, murder, adultery… The more society accepts it as being “perfectly okay,†and “normal,†the more it will spread.
First of all, great post Puckstop
Second…
As I’ve already said, I firmly believe homosexuality is a sin. But, I don’t necessarily think every gay person out there makes a conscious decision to be gay. I think there are a lot of stereotypes out there. Men are supposed to be tall, dark, handsome, toned, into sports…what you stereotypically think of when you think of a man. Women are supposed to be small, petite, dainty, always kind and loving to everyone they meet, and looking for the “perfect manâ€. Unfortunately, many people do not fit into these stereotypes, and become outcasts, only to be picked on. What if a man is quiet, gentle, and into art? He’s more “feminineâ€? He’s bound to be picked on and labeled a queer, simply because he’s different. People are very impressionable. They easily believe what others tell them. The more people tell a man he must be gay, just because he’s soft-spoken, the more he’s going to believe it, and think maybe he is gay. Instead of maybe he’s just not your stereotypical male. Same goes for a woman; if she’s not your stereotypical female, but more of a “tom boy,†enjoys sports, has a blunt sense of humor, etc., she will most likely be labeled a butch.
I think we need to break down these stereotypes. Webster’s dictionary describes masculine….
Masculine (adj.) 1 male; of men or boys. 2 having qualities regarded as characteristic of men and characteristic of a man 4 mannish: said of a woman
(n.) 1 the masculine gender 2 a word or for in this gender
Notice how is says, “having qualities regarded as characteristic.â€
Feminine (adj.) 1 female; of women or girls 2 having qualities regarded as characteristic of women and girls, as gentleness, weakness, delicacy, modesty, etc.; womanly 3 suitable to the characteristics of a woman
(n.) 1 the feminine gender 2 a word or form in this gender.
Spot “regarded as characteristic†again?
Who is to say what masculinity, or femininity, really, truly is? If a man is soft-spoken and gentle, okay. If a woman is loud and blunt, okay. Just because they do not fit into the stereotypes of their gender does not mean they are gay.
Many gay people also say they “discovered†their sexual orientation as a teenager. Being a teenager is confusing. You question anything and everything you’ve ever known, you try to find who you really are, what you want to do with the rest of your life, who is really there for you and who is just using you. You try to be different, and unique, but fit in at the same time… Personally, I do not believe many of these people who “discover†their orientation as a teen are actually gay. They were confused, as every teenage has been, is, and will be.
I also think many people are confused about what’s attraction and what’s brotherly love. I love my friends, whether they be of the opposite gender, or the same gender. There are certain friends who I’ve known for a long while, and have close friendships or have had close friendships with, and I have a stronger love for them, because we know each other better. I think people are often confused about whether they truly just love someone as a pal, or love someone as a potential partner. Besides that, I think people really are confused about what attraction is. I see girls who I’ll think are really pretty, or tell, “wow, you’re gorgeous.†I am not attracted to them in any way, I simply think they’re pretty. It’s not the same as when I look at a good-looking man and am actually attracted to him.
Something else I've noticed is that the gay pride movement wants to give off an image of total happiness; gay people could not be any happier. But many times, you'll find that they are or were depressed and/or self-destructive. They go to therapy. They had broken childhoods. A gay man didn't have a good strong male role model, but a mother who shunned men, and gave him the impression being a man is a bad thing. A gay woman didn't have a good female role model, but a father who shunned women. Or a gay man was molested as a child by a male. That would most definitely give someone a bad impression, and strong fear, of men.
Sorry for going on so long! Now!
I do not believe that “gay†people should live a gay lifestyle. Just like I do not think adulterers should continue to cheat on their spouses. Both are sins. I do not encourage anyone to live in sin, I think everyone should try their best to move away from sin. Just because cheating makes an adulterer happy, does that mean they should do it? Or should they move away from sin and find something else, something not sinful, to please them?
To have a gay relative most certainly affects a family. What if that family does not believe in homosexuality? The relative *wants* them to accept their sin, but the family refuses. They do not abandon the person, they simply say they will not support the gay lifestyle. The gay relative then threatens to abandon *them* by not sharing in on family holiday gatherings and such, because the family doesn’t not accept homosexuality as correct?
All these gay pride parades *do* affect others. Men in thongs dancing around (including old men; something I really, really, *really* do NOT need to see), drag queens and kings (too much makeup, honey), etcetera. Do you think people really want their children to see men dancing around like strippers? I highly doubt it.
Those who disagree with homosexuality are often labeled “homophobesâ€. This is something that really makes me giggle, but at the same time gets on my nerves. The definition of “phobia†in Webster’s dictionary is as follows….
Phobia (n.) an irrational, excessive, and persistent fear of some particular thing or situation. Fear, dread, hatred. –phobic adj.
I am not scared of gay people. It’s not like when I meet a gay man I scream and run away yelling, “Don’t touch me!†Just because I have a different opinion, means I am a homophobe? What makes this even funnier is pretty much every gay person or gay supporter I’ve ever seen or met considers themselves to be very open-minded. But the minute someone simply says they do not agree with homosexuality (not that they hate gay people, or anything like that), an opinion much different than a gay person’s, they are labeled a homophobe.
Besides that, because I do not support homosexuality, I do not want to see it spread. I don’t want to see any sin spread, whether it be homosexuality, murder, adultery… The more society accepts it as being “perfectly okay,†and “normal,†the more it will spread.
First of all, great post Puckstop
Second…
As I’ve already said, I firmly believe homosexuality is a sin. But, I don’t necessarily think every gay person out there makes a conscious decision to be gay. I think there are a lot of stereotypes out there. Men are supposed to be tall, dark, handsome, toned, into sports…what you stereotypically think of when you think of a man. Women are supposed to be small, petite, dainty, always kind and loving to everyone they meet, and looking for the “perfect manâ€. Unfortunately, many people do not fit into these stereotypes, and become outcasts, only to be picked on. What if a man is quiet, gentle, and into art? He’s more “feminineâ€? He’s bound to be picked on and labeled a queer, simply because he’s different. People are very impressionable. They easily believe what others tell them. The more people tell a man he must be gay, just because he’s soft-spoken, the more he’s going to believe it, and think maybe he is gay. Instead of maybe he’s just not your stereotypical male. Same goes for a woman; if she’s not your stereotypical female, but more of a “tom boy,†enjoys sports, has a blunt sense of humor, etc., she will most likely be labeled a butch.
I think we need to break down these stereotypes. Webster’s dictionary describes masculine….
Masculine (adj.) 1 male; of men or boys. 2 having qualities regarded as characteristic of men and characteristic of a man 4 mannish: said of a woman
(n.) 1 the masculine gender 2 a word or for in this gender
Notice how is says, “having qualities regarded as characteristic.â€
Feminine (adj.) 1 female; of women or girls 2 having qualities regarded as characteristic of women and girls, as gentleness, weakness, delicacy, modesty, etc.; womanly 3 suitable to the characteristics of a woman
(n.) 1 the feminine gender 2 a word or form in this gender.
Spot “regarded as characteristic†again?
Who is to say what masculinity, or femininity, really, truly is? If a man is soft-spoken and gentle, okay. If a woman is loud and blunt, okay. Just because they do not fit into the stereotypes of their gender does not mean they are gay.
Many gay people also say they “discovered†their sexual orientation as a teenager. Being a teenager is confusing. You question anything and everything you’ve ever known, you try to find who you really are, what you want to do with the rest of your life, who is really there for you and who is just using you. You try to be different, and unique, but fit in at the same time… Personally, I do not believe many of these people who “discover†their orientation as a teen are actually gay. They were confused, as every teenage has been, is, and will be.
I also think many people are confused about what’s attraction and what’s brotherly love. I love my friends, whether they be of the opposite gender, or the same gender. There are certain friends who I’ve known for a long while, and have close friendships or have had close friendships with, and I have a stronger love for them, because we know each other better. I think people are often confused about whether they truly just love someone as a pal, or love someone as a potential partner. Besides that, I think people really are confused about what attraction is. I see girls who I’ll think are really pretty, or tell, “wow, you’re gorgeous.†I am not attracted to them in any way, I simply think they’re pretty. It’s not the same as when I look at a good-looking man and am actually attracted to him.
Something else I've noticed is that the gay pride movement wants to give off an image of total happiness; gay people could not be any happier. But many times, you'll find that they are or were depressed and/or self-destructive. They go to therapy. They had broken childhoods. A gay man didn't have a good strong male role model, but a mother who shunned men, and gave him the impression being a man is a bad thing. A gay woman didn't have a good female role model, but a father who shunned women. Or a gay man was molested as a child by a male. That would most definitely give someone a bad impression, and strong fear, of men.
Sorry for going on so long! Now!
I do not believe that “gay†people should live a gay lifestyle. Just like I do not think adulterers should continue to cheat on their spouses. Both are sins. I do not encourage anyone to live in sin, I think everyone should try their best to move away from sin. Just because cheating makes an adulterer happy, does that mean they should do it? Or should they move away from sin and find something else, something not sinful, to please them?
but GOD didnt tell YOU personally being gay was a sin...insteady the only word of god you have is in that book...so based on that argument, if the book was switched still same bible, same god same religion but instead of man and wife it said man and man (or woman and woman) but YOUR sexuality didnt change, would you be celebate for life simply because THE BOOK told you being straight was a sin?! cause lets face it, unless you have gods tel number (or are hearing "his voice" he has never personall screamed out from above in his own personal voice being gay is bad...were currently all going off what is said in the bibel...so if the bible switched...would you be able to be celebate your entire life simply because you were very not only sexually but emotionally attratched to someone of the opposit sex even though thats a sin in this alternate reality...or worse force yourself into a same sex relationship just because gods book tells you anythign else is a sin?!
if so that crosses the line to me into BLIND faith, doing something simply because the bible tells you to do so...
i think like everybook things are open for interpritation...
but my opinion falls mostly on the idea that what kind of justice is it when the sin of being and acting on your gayness is just as bad as the sin of murdering, raping, molestation?! i personally just cant grasp that concept...
and again this is MY opion NOT based on religious belife but on personal morals and inner feelings, ive read the bible...
and what about the other people...
god made adam and eve, eve had kid, kid leaves the garden and ends up being wit someone and having kids...id assume if there were offspring it would have to be a human woman...but god only created adam and eve...whered his gf come from?! and if there were people outside of the garden NOT created by god (cause the only other mention of god creating a human was lilith) are THEY not goverend by gods laws since they were not created by him?!
if so that crosses the line to me into BLIND faith, doing something simply because the bible tells you to do so...
i think like everybook things are open for interpritation...
but my opinion falls mostly on the idea that what kind of justice is it when the sin of being and acting on your gayness is just as bad as the sin of murdering, raping, molestation?! i personally just cant grasp that concept...
and again this is MY opion NOT based on religious belife but on personal morals and inner feelings, ive read the bible...
and what about the other people...
god made adam and eve, eve had kid, kid leaves the garden and ends up being wit someone and having kids...id assume if there were offspring it would have to be a human woman...but god only created adam and eve...whered his gf come from?! and if there were people outside of the garden NOT created by god (cause the only other mention of god creating a human was lilith) are THEY not goverend by gods laws since they were not created by him?!
Puckstop, is this what you mean when you said that you have answered my question 500 times? Because this does not really answer my question. My question was simply why would God create genes that allow for homosexuality (maybe they haven't been found in humans, but most certainly in other species) when it is an abominable sin? I am simply curious to see from a religious perspective. Maybe there is no answer, maybe your answer is just because that is what He did. I can except this from a religious stand, but I was wondering if there was more to it or not.