Politics, Religion and Dog Training
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As a Christian I feel like I need to add something to the topic in terms of the Old Testament, New Testament etc. It isn't that I think that I know better than anyone else it's that I want to share my understanding and why I follow the path of Christ.
I'm not a Bible literalist. I believe that the books of the Bible were written by people and (especially the OT) should be read as a reflection of the times. The laws in the OT books were not laws for Christians they were laws for everyone. Over the centuries there have been hundreds of recorded laws that guide civilization and more than a few of them claim that they came from God. When the authors of the OT were discussing the path to heaven they were trying to find a way to reach God and make themselves acceptable. We all know our own hearts and minds. We all have thoughts that go through our heads that aren't necessarily nice or acceptable. For some people who wanted to be worthy of God those thoughts made them feel ashamed and as a shamed, flawed human God couldn't possibly want us. They were reaching out and attempting to win eternal salvation in the only way they knew how.
I can tell that many of our members are familiar with the Bible, and have given matters of faith a great deal of thought so I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone when I say that the simplest proof, without a doubt that the Old Testament was not handed down from God comes from the fact that Jesus had to read the scriptures. Why would God made flesh need to read these Scriptures if they were from heaven? Many times Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy and impossibility of the OT laws and used quite a bit of sarcasm towards people who were too obsessed with them. I pointed out a bit of scripture in the other thread that I think is appropriate here too.
Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Paul summed up everything that Jesus died to give us. We no longer have to be slaves to sin, which is what the people in the OT were. They were so legalistic that any small break in the law was considered an infraction against God. They were slaves to the heaps of laws and rules that were all but impossible for people to follow. He also gives us a very important warning in that passage. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
If what we want is to live according to the Old Testament laws then in our judgment we will be accountable for every one of them. We aren't saved both by Grace and by the OT, we have to pick one or he other. If we wish to live according to those old laws then we surrender the Salvation that was given to us by Christ.
In recent years Christianity has become something hideous and terrible and I'm sorry to see the damage that has been done to society in the name of christianity. I would, however, like to share a passage from the book of Revelation too. I'll just link it though, as this message is already starting to become terribly long. I hope that people who really are interested in this discussion will read it and I pray that it will be understood as I see it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=18&version=47
I'm not a Bible literalist. I believe that the books of the Bible were written by people and (especially the OT) should be read as a reflection of the times. The laws in the OT books were not laws for Christians they were laws for everyone. Over the centuries there have been hundreds of recorded laws that guide civilization and more than a few of them claim that they came from God. When the authors of the OT were discussing the path to heaven they were trying to find a way to reach God and make themselves acceptable. We all know our own hearts and minds. We all have thoughts that go through our heads that aren't necessarily nice or acceptable. For some people who wanted to be worthy of God those thoughts made them feel ashamed and as a shamed, flawed human God couldn't possibly want us. They were reaching out and attempting to win eternal salvation in the only way they knew how.
I can tell that many of our members are familiar with the Bible, and have given matters of faith a great deal of thought so I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone when I say that the simplest proof, without a doubt that the Old Testament was not handed down from God comes from the fact that Jesus had to read the scriptures. Why would God made flesh need to read these Scriptures if they were from heaven? Many times Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy and impossibility of the OT laws and used quite a bit of sarcasm towards people who were too obsessed with them. I pointed out a bit of scripture in the other thread that I think is appropriate here too.
Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Paul summed up everything that Jesus died to give us. We no longer have to be slaves to sin, which is what the people in the OT were. They were so legalistic that any small break in the law was considered an infraction against God. They were slaves to the heaps of laws and rules that were all but impossible for people to follow. He also gives us a very important warning in that passage. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
If what we want is to live according to the Old Testament laws then in our judgment we will be accountable for every one of them. We aren't saved both by Grace and by the OT, we have to pick one or he other. If we wish to live according to those old laws then we surrender the Salvation that was given to us by Christ.
In recent years Christianity has become something hideous and terrible and I'm sorry to see the damage that has been done to society in the name of christianity. I would, however, like to share a passage from the book of Revelation too. I'll just link it though, as this message is already starting to become terribly long. I hope that people who really are interested in this discussion will read it and I pray that it will be understood as I see it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=18&version=47
I have not participated in this discussion. Too busy, no matter how engrossing this is. Copi is well versed in the Bible, at least compared to me. My memory doesn't stand to remembering which verse to use where, Copi had my back in the other thread when they all ganged up on me- much appreciated.
I find it deeply painful to see people do horrible things in the name of Christianity. Someone complained we were taking the Lord's name in vain here- using the Bible to justify causing pain to others- now that's using the Lord's name in vain.
On another front, we live in a heavily Jewish community. My husband, who like me, isn't jewish, says taking in homeless and hurting animals and making them part of your family is a Mitzvah in God's eyes- whether you're Jewish or not. I like that.
I find it deeply painful to see people do horrible things in the name of Christianity. Someone complained we were taking the Lord's name in vain here- using the Bible to justify causing pain to others- now that's using the Lord's name in vain.
On another front, we live in a heavily Jewish community. My husband, who like me, isn't jewish, says taking in homeless and hurting animals and making them part of your family is a Mitzvah in God's eyes- whether you're Jewish or not. I like that.
Revelation is definitely a funky book. It's actually not intended to be prophetic . . . It's talking about things that already happened when it was written, not things that would happen in the future. The "great beast of the devil" is Nero. At the time it was written, the apocalypic style of writing was popular. Kind of like rap for Biblical times. 
That's beautiful, Dr. Mom.
That's beautiful, Dr. Mom.
Yes there is some very good reading out there on this subject. It's done. But people just love to use it to instill fear of the wrath of God. I just don't buy it's value at all today, and even if the places and people it refers to from the past can be clearly identified, I still see it as somebody's hallucination or something *someone* decided to stick into the end of the bible to keep the masses good and scared.
- He heals people on the Sabbath (which was breaking one of the Ten Commandments, even.)
- He and his disciples eat without washing their hands in the prescribed manner.
- He stops the men from stoning the adulterous woman to death, which was what Moses' law said to do with adulterous women.
- He says not to take an eye for an eye, which was also an Old Testament law.
This right here is enough to **** me off. This is why I care not to follow organized religion and any woman that follows the bible and the preaching of these bible thumper s I think is nutty JMO
where is anything ever done to the man that commits adultery ?
Am I wrong because I do no longer own a bible but it seems to me that ( depending on who's version you read) God said you must never eat from the tree of knowledge or wisdom he did not say you must not pick. Eve picked Adam ate. Eve and females there after suffered.
In Genesis it is deplorable how the women are treated. But considering that the Bible and all that went on took place in that part of the world and seeing it today why am I not surprised.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith too and had to suffer countless hours weekly of seeing and being abused by the Franciscan nuns. I also was taught that Birth control is a sin so regardless of the fact I had to deliver by C section getting fixed made me unholy. I also was told by these monsters that once God has sanctified a union between man and woman you live with him until death regardless of the fact he does not support you or beats you. Things have changed I see but not much.
What has religion taught me ? That their are a bunch of hypocrites that go to church on Sunday and then sin Monday thru Saturday and try to make everyone else look like they are doomed to hell.
It taught me that if you don't really believe in the faith keep your mouth shut and do as your family wants you to do IE be a good practicing Catholic girl or get to be an outcast.
Through out my studies of the Bible and God I was told he was all loving and forgiving yet he turned people into pillars of salt, wiped them out in a flood, asked Abraham to kill his only son Isaac, Let Job suffer as he did, wiped out the first born sons of the Egyptians, and the list goes on. What I have to say to that is this I hope my children never have to prove their love to me then.
I hope that if there is a God and this I and no one living 100% know as fact only through faith I hope he has time for me at my death because I have a whole bunch of questions to ask before he sends my happy ass to hell.
- He and his disciples eat without washing their hands in the prescribed manner.
- He stops the men from stoning the adulterous woman to death, which was what Moses' law said to do with adulterous women.
- He says not to take an eye for an eye, which was also an Old Testament law.
This right here is enough to **** me off. This is why I care not to follow organized religion and any woman that follows the bible and the preaching of these bible thumper s I think is nutty JMO
where is anything ever done to the man that commits adultery ?
Am I wrong because I do no longer own a bible but it seems to me that ( depending on who's version you read) God said you must never eat from the tree of knowledge or wisdom he did not say you must not pick. Eve picked Adam ate. Eve and females there after suffered.
In Genesis it is deplorable how the women are treated. But considering that the Bible and all that went on took place in that part of the world and seeing it today why am I not surprised.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith too and had to suffer countless hours weekly of seeing and being abused by the Franciscan nuns. I also was taught that Birth control is a sin so regardless of the fact I had to deliver by C section getting fixed made me unholy. I also was told by these monsters that once God has sanctified a union between man and woman you live with him until death regardless of the fact he does not support you or beats you. Things have changed I see but not much.
What has religion taught me ? That their are a bunch of hypocrites that go to church on Sunday and then sin Monday thru Saturday and try to make everyone else look like they are doomed to hell.
It taught me that if you don't really believe in the faith keep your mouth shut and do as your family wants you to do IE be a good practicing Catholic girl or get to be an outcast.
Through out my studies of the Bible and God I was told he was all loving and forgiving yet he turned people into pillars of salt, wiped them out in a flood, asked Abraham to kill his only son Isaac, Let Job suffer as he did, wiped out the first born sons of the Egyptians, and the list goes on. What I have to say to that is this I hope my children never have to prove their love to me then.
I hope that if there is a God and this I and no one living 100% know as fact only through faith I hope he has time for me at my death because I have a whole bunch of questions to ask before he sends my happy ass to hell.
You are correct. I worded that very poorly. I was hoping that people would understand why I posted it without an explanation. I was taking the lazy way out because I was afraid that my message was getting too long.
The point in posting it was to point out the similarities between that passage and the political/social movement that has hijacked Christianity in recent years. I do believe that was understood but I don't want the point of it to be lost.
There has been a lot of Christian debate over that particular verse and it's almost accepted that it's talking about the Church of Rome, or the Catholic Church (even by many Catholics). What's been in the making for the last several years is something so totally bizarre and unexpected that I think that no matter how we view Relelation it's something to think about.
The point in posting it was to point out the similarities between that passage and the political/social movement that has hijacked Christianity in recent years. I do believe that was understood but I don't want the point of it to be lost.
There has been a lot of Christian debate over that particular verse and it's almost accepted that it's talking about the Church of Rome, or the Catholic Church (even by many Catholics). What's been in the making for the last several years is something so totally bizarre and unexpected that I think that no matter how we view Relelation it's something to think about.
Revelation is definitely a funky book. It's actually not intended to be prophetic . . . It's talking about things that already happened when it was written, not things that would happen in the future. The "great beast of the devil" is Nero. At the time it was written, the apocalypic style of writing was popular. Kind of like rap for Biblical times.
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.