Only a mutt

[GoingNowhere]

Hybrid vigour does exist. But crossing to breeds is not a hybrid. So unless you are crossing dogs and coyotes it is kind of a myth when it comes to breeding dogs. (if one wants to be technical)

It's possible that my professors were incorrect, but as far as I know, in cattle and sheep breeding, crossing two or more breeds is performed to achieve heterosis (hybrid vigor is defined as "heterosis" on dictionary.com). There are two and three breed rotations as well as a roto-terminal rotation with regard to cattle breeding, but nothing that involves crossing two or more species. I see no reason why it should be any different with dogs if properly applied. Granted, it doesn't seem to have been properly applied with dogs (that I know of anyway) as of yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[Bailey08]

I actually just got back from an AKC agility trial. The breeder who invited me (and who knows I have B) mentioned a couple of times that mixes could enter now, and that she didn't look down on mixes at all and thought they were great. I actually thought it was quite nice of her -- but I don't care what anyone thinks, lol. My mutt is perfect. And, frankly, I dare someone to look down on him.

(Incidentally, it was so fun! I loved seeing all of the different breeds I'd only seen in pics before, too.)

 

[Dekka]

It's possible that my professors were incorrect, but as far as I know, in cattle and sheep breeding, crossing two or more breeds is performed to achieve heterosis (hybrid vigor is defined as "heterosis" on dictionary.com). There are two and three breed rotations as well as a roto-terminal rotation with regard to cattle breeding, but nothing that involves crossing two or more species. I see no reason why it should be any different with dogs if properly applied. Granted, it doesn't seem to have been properly applied with dogs (that I know of anyway) as of yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

The heterosis, is another way of discussing heterozygosity. So the terms are fairly interchangeable. Most scientist (there is always arguments lol) use the term hybrid to refer to species vs sub populations (and defining a species can be tricky, but no one would say a lab is a different species than a golden...)

And it can help, and it can hurt. If the population is fairly healthy with few deleterious genes its good. If one wants to cleans the gene pool then homozygosity is good because it gets rid of deleterious genes.

Adding genetic material that is healthy is awesome. But its not very applicable to mutts. There isn't going to be any greater saftey or health benefits on a genetic level.

As an example of how extreme inbreeding can work. The province of NFL has a thriving population of moose. There are ~150 000 moose taking over the island. They are a huge nuisance lol. The thing is they all stem from 5 (maybe 4 as one died shortly after being introduced and they are not sure if he bred before he died) individuals that were introduced just over a hundred years ago... This is a very healthy population that has a tiny genetic base...

Don't get me wrong I am all for increasing the genetic diversity of breeds. But I don't think it should be done by random, or even casual crossing. Its just as likely to back fire as it is to benefit.

 

[GoingNowhere]

Don't get me wrong I am all for increasing the genetic diversity of breeds. But I don't think it should be done by random, or even casual crossing. Its just as likely to back fire as it is to benefit.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I would never claim that a mix is healthier than a purebred just by the sole fact that it is a mix. But I would be interested to see if something like what the original labradoodle breeders were attempting to do might actually be possible if properly approached. It doesn't sound too far off from what livestock breeders do every day.

I'm still learning about genetics, but I think it's pretty fascinating to see what can be accomplished.

 

[Brattina88]

I love "mutts" I hope one day I will own one <3
But, to be honest, the thought of getting a puppy with unknown heritage scares me a little :rofl1: You just never know how big they are going to get, or ''what" they'll turn into... That appeals to some people, but that's why I'd get a purebred puppy, if I ever get a puppy again. Because I like to do research, and know what I'm getting myself into

But I'd loooove to adopt a X adult in the future

 

[Lilavati]

My understanding is that statistically, as a group, mutts (real mutts as opposed to designer mixes) are healthier than purebreds, as a group. That actually makes sense, because some of the breeds are genetic disasters, and because so many purebreds (and crossbreds) are milled . . . so both the really screwed-up breeds and the mill puppies drag down the average. But that in no way means that any given mutt will outlive any given purebred . . . if you are really looking for health above all, your best bet is to get a purebred from someone who has bred for just that.

Again, from my understanding, its not that mixes are healthy and purebreds screwed up . . . its that purebreds, collectively, are slightly more likely to be screwed up and to be screwed up in predictable ways. Mutts are slightly less likely to have serious problems, but its a complete crapshoot what those problems will be if they do have them. So I know to keep an eye on Docket's vision, his hips, his back, and getting weak behind. Sarama . . . errr . . . I have no idea what I should look for. Asian spitz problems I guess . . . but since we only vaguely guess the other half was possibly from the herding group . . . hmm . . . yeah. If she has an inborn problem . . . it could be anything. I tend to keep an eye on her back because she's ever so slightly swaybacked.

Dekka . . . about those moose . . .wouldn't they be especially vulnerable to an introduced disease?

 

[Dekka]

they don't seem to be.

But there is no data that shows that they are healthier. There are no databases to track mutts and very few mutts have CERF tests or hips done... So if you look at statistics sure. But that is cause they only have one set of data...

(its like Mad cow in the US, just cause you don't test for it doesn't mean you don't have it)

 

[*blackrose]

For the record, I know hybrid vigor exists...I just don't feel it is applicable in the average case when it comes to dogs. The people who spout "hybrid vigor" with their mutts (most designer breed people) think that merely crossing two different breeds creates a superior animal. Which is so not true in that case. It can be true, of course - which is why cross working dogs are often bred; they fill a niche that none of the other purebreds can. But those dogs have responsible breeding backing them, too.

There isn't really anything "better" about purebreds or mutts, health included. Extremely mixed breed dogs might be healthier genetically, but that is just because the extremes aren't there and there is enough variation to keep those problems down. Breeding a structurally sound, health tested purebred would get you the same result.

 

[Dekka]

Hybrid vigour does exist. But that doesn't mean that hybrids ARE more 'vigorous' In some cases they are far weaker than the parent types.

The problem is people assume that hybrid vigour means that hybrids are better. Sometimes they are sometimes they aren't.

If you do pop gen you will probably get into that (at least that is where we did) Where they give all sorts of examples where hybrids are fitter, but usually they are less fit.

 

[*blackrose]

Hybrid vigour does exist. But that doesn't mean that hybrids ARE more 'vigorous' In some cases they are far weaker than the parent types.

The problem is people assume that hybrid vigour means that hybrids are better. Sometimes they are sometimes they aren't.

If you do pop gen you will probably get into that (at least that is where we did) Where they give all sorts of examples where hybrids are fitter, but usually they are less fit.

Yes, exactly.