I know using the ecollar at low levels has made him nearly a perfect walker - he does not pull - stays in step with me and anticipates my turns. I don't have to nick him any more or rarely to keep in heel and walking beside me during are strolls.
Yes, fear of consequences is a powerful motivator for containment of behaviors. Any trainer who has used pain in order to stop behaviors knows how well it works. But pain does not build a trusting relationship with your dog - of course, that's YOUR choice and one you evidently are stepping into willingly. You're teaching your dog that if he shows signs of being uncomfortable in the presence of another dog, or steps out of heel position, he will be zapped. That's not a recipe for trust. It's a recipe for fear, even if you don't see huge fearful reactions toward you at this point. You'll never have the same kind of relationship with your dog that using positive methods (which, in the long run, are MORE effective than pain/discomfort based methods) would get you. But since you won't ever see the difference, you'll never know what you could have had.
This trainer has a lot of success stories and well-known in the area. He often gets cases from the positive only trainers because they can't handle dogs with obedience problems. His strong personal opinions against the positive methods are based on experience - do I always agree, no.
And who is it telling you that he "often gets cases from the positive only trainers because they can't handle dogs with obedience problems"? Could it be - possibly - this "shock'em 'til they behave" trainer you've got? Of COURSE he's going to tell you that, and of COURSE his buddies are going to tell you that, and of COURSE people who don't have any other knowledge than what this trainer tells them are going to tell you that. His strong personal opinions against positive methods are based on inexperience - because if he used the methods correctly, he would have found that they produce a wonderfully behaved, wonderfully trusting dog that is every bit as reliable as a dog that is shocked into compliance. I've trained both with a high level of correction and a high level of positive reinforcement and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the positive reinforcement is a better way to go. Does that mean a person has to be "positive only"? No, of course not. In fact I know very few trainers who ARE positive only. There's a balance of positive reinforcement and correction that is very effective, but it's swayed largely to the side of +R (roughly 95% +R to 5% correction). The method you're being taught is primarily based on making the dog fearful of "misbehaving" (a human term, not something the dog understands) by creating pain/discomfort whenever he doesn't conform to what you and your trainer think he should be doing.
You know, there are a lot of trainers out there who use pain to train and they have a high success rating as far as quick results and even titles on their dogs. These trainers do things like sharpen prong collars and use heavy pieces of dowling to smack their dog's toes. They have dogs that appear to be well-behaved and responsive, and prove it with lists of titles. But does the end justify the means? I just can't justify use of pain in training for general obedience when there are other methods that are ABSOLUTELY more effective and are kind too.
Since I've been spending alot of my energy getting my dog obediently sound, I've become more attuned to my dog. I realize I have a long way to go. Like I said there are several good owners in my neighborhhod who have used the e-collar on their dogs with good results. All you have to do is observe.
Has your "attunement" to your dog made you realize yet that shocking a dog in order to make it walk calmly by your side is teaching your dog that you are willing to use whatever it takes - pain, obviously, and who knows what else - to "train" your dog? Have you realized yet, in observing your dog, that there's no way you can build a true level of trust when the dog has learned fear in order to be all that you want him to be? I'm sorry, but good owners do NOT depend on an e-collar for general training. Good owners learn about dog behavior and how to isolate and reinforce behaviors while keeping punishment to a minimum in order to provide and encourage the best possible trusting relationship they can with a dog. It doesn't mean there's never a correction - it means that corrections are minimal and praise/reward/reinforcement makes up the basis for teaching.
There are few more sessions with this trainer - and unfortunately other positive only trainers I contacted never got back to me or were slow to respond unlike the current trainer. If anyone has some good names of positive only trainers in/near Baltimore I'd be happy to consult them. Until then I'll keep looking.
Hmmm, maybe the positive trainers are busy with people who really want to understand their dogs, and couldn't get right back to you. Or maybe you just looked around your neighborhood, saw other dogs walking listlessly beside their owners with a shock collar strapped tightly to their necks and the owners clutching a remote control, and decided "wow, I like that these dogs are robots, let's just go with THAT guy". There just isn't much in your posts that makes me think you've considered your dog's state of mind. You ask for advice and then you make excuses for why you want to continue to use shock for subduing behaviors in your dog - without working through the fear issues in any way! That's just sad.
The second dog park we went to there were no dogs or major distraction except for a few geese. Of course he eyed them and I attempted to do watch me commands, clicking when his eyes met mine. I wish I really worked on this command with him as younger pup. Anyway. I felt it safe enough to attach my 25 foot lead/rope. We went through some heels, down stay sits etc with fairly good success. The I pulled out my tennis ball and he started to jump up and down like wild indian. He was pretty darn obedient with commands. I even did a stay/sit from over 30 yards and I was able to circle walk around him with his eyes on me several times. When he completed the command I'd throw the ball which he would wildly chase.
I can't tell if you add in this stuff in order to try to make it sound like you're attempting positive reinforcement training, or if you're really putting some effort into it. Does he wear his shock collar all the time while you're doing these things? Is the threat/possibility of a shock always there for him? Do you USE the shock at all during this time? Do you understand the concept of using a clicker - the click is ALWAYS to be followed by a reward, but you mention clicking and no reward? Do you understand marking a behavior? Do you have "keep going" words that you can use when a click/mark is not appropriate or wanted?
I know that I come across as being pretty unfriendly in this post, and I don't mean it that way so much as just being frustrated by reading things about a dog that has a fear behavior that is being "controlled" by a shock collar - and someone defending a trainer who so obviously is not concerned in the least bit about what's right for the dog. As I mentioned before, I'm familiar (and have used) a shock collar. It was only for specific extreme behaviors - NOT fear based behaviors - on a dog that was tough and confident and had been trained extensively using positive methods. I studied the concept of low level stimulation and understood fully how it worked as a negative reinforcement more than a positive punishment (in behavioral terms). I paired the use of the -R (shock) with a high level of +R (praise, treats, etc.) in order to optimize the behavioral uses of the collar as it pertains to operant conditioning. I read all of Lou Castle's information. It was never used for regular obedience training or for competition purposes, and this dog (a chow) has earned three rally obedience titles and her first regular obedience title - all before the age of 3 - with training based on positive motivation. She's a little spitfire and has a typical independent chow nature, but her behaviors have been nicely shaped into obedience through understanding of dog behavior and proper use of reinforcement techniques. I've used these techniques successfully on hundreds of breeds and mixes of breeds, as well as cats, horses and even a full wolf. The techniques are tremendously successful. I only find that those who don't have a real knowledge of behavior and behavioral concepts go around saying "positive training doesn't work". For the type of behaviors you've mentioned, there is no reason why your dog couldn't have learned well, and with a high level of confidence and trust, how to be just as reliable without having to be shocked.
Several people in this thread have said to get rid of your trainer, yet you continue to make excuses for him. I don't think there's much more we can tell you unless you're willing to really look at what's good for your dog, and not be blinded by the apparent "success" of someone who is willing to use shock on a fearful dog. You don't come across as someone who cares about what's happening to their dog when you defend a trainer like that. You may feel I'm bashing you but I feel for your dog - and hope that you can move past this need for instant compliance and this need for a trainer with little or no actual knowledge of dog behavior (takes no knowledge to push a button on the remote control of a shock collar, unfortunately).
Melanie and the gang
