On-leash aggression on walks

jjwoodee · Dec 13, 2007

I'm currently in the process of seriously training my poodle mix named Picaso. About a month a half ago, my wife was walking Picaso and he got away from her and proceeded to confront a neighborhood husky. The larger husky had our dogâ€™s neck in its mouth and my got in the middle of this debacle suffering bite wounds to her hand. Luckily the dog was up to date with the shots and my wife is fine.

We hired a trainer. My long-term goal is to go into agility utilizing my dogs seemingly vasts amount energy and athletic ability. The main problem currently is on-leash aggression toward strange dogs, particularly husky types within our neighborhood. Off leash my dog is fine, however.

The trainer I'm working with now is using the e-collar and applying the pack leader philosophy. I have used positive treat reinforcement and clicker training with some success. However the trainer feels this is bribing your dog in some fashion. I don't necessarily believe this, but with the e-collar I have seen dramatic improvement in walking behavior and obedience. However the on-leash aggression is still present. We've been working on technique that trains the owner to recognize the dogs precursor actions (like heavier huff and puffs and excessive excitability), then go into an immediate heel drills applying the e-collar stimulations when he doesn't heel properly. Is this a good approach? I do know that to get him to calm down or comply when in this state and we have to turn up the remote collar quite a bit and sometimes hit him with a continuous zap or nick. This will get his attention, not treats ever will.

I read through a site and this description of behavior generalized dog aggression fits. The website stated:

"Our experience has been that this aggression will eventually fade over time as the dog is prevented
from escalating any aggression."

Itâ€™s been a few weeks of using this ecollar, so I guess I should be patient and continue. I was hoping
for perhaps some reassurance in my approach or any information or suggested products that might be the
best approach in solving this problem.

Thanks for any advice.

Here's a pic of this future agilty athlete. (hopefully)

Maxy24 · Dec 13, 2007

I can't say I agree with using the E-collar especially since this aggression probably stems from fear and having him be on edge about a correction might heighten his nervousness making him more likely to show aggression. I personally would drop the trainer I can't stand the "alpha of pack" dominance people, if you want help finding a good one I might be able to help you find one in your area with the help of someone else.

Now what i would do is desensitize the dog to being around other dogs on leash. will he react to others if he's ragging the leash or does someone have to be on the other end? Basically desensitization would be starting by walking the dog at a distance from another dog that would not cause him to react and working to get closer to the dog making him comfortable at the new distance each time until he no longer fears being on leash near other dogs. You also said he reacts more to Husky looking dogs, does he react with small dogs too? If not I would start with smaller dogs (if you can) and work up to larger sized dogs. Now instead of shocking him when he starts to show signs of distress see if you can play with him or have him go through basic commands to get his mind off the other dog. if he won't pay attention then you will simply need to go further back since that means you've gone to fast for the dog.

The reason I prefer getting the dog used to others on leash as opposed to the e-collar is that with the method your using now the dog is still scared. The e-collar does not make the dog less scared of other dogs or make him not want to be aggressive he is just to afraid to act on his fear, he is a bundle of nerves. With the desensitization you are actually reducing the dog's fear of other dogs until he no longer feels like getting aggressive, he is not holding anything back when he meets others on leash because he has learned they are safe. Someone else might be able to give you other ideas though.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, you wanted to know you were doing things right but I don't like to punish fear and suppress it I prefer to make the fear go away (as much as possible).

On another note your dog is beautiful and I think it's great you want to go into agility, it's a great sport. But yeah if you want to see if there is another trainer near you I'll ask someone if they know.

Saintgirl · Dec 13, 2007

First I want to say what a beautiful dog!

Second, FIRE YOUR TRAINER!!!!!! Using an e-collar is generally discouraged in the professional dog training world. ESPECIALLY for treating aggression problems. Sure, you are seeing an improvement, because your dog is learning to fear the shock that comes along with meeting other dogs. This will not treat the aggression problem, infact it can increase aggression. Your trainer will tell you that I am full of it and have no idea what I am talking about because what I am about to tell you will go against everything that they are selling you.

Dog aggression (DA) can be managed through behavior modification. Positive reinforcement works the best, however it takes more work. In the end however, you have a dog who will be reliable on and off their lead. First you have to understand why your dog is displaying this type of behavior. Typically dogs on lead who display aggression are fear reacting. They feel threatened and confined by their lead and react immediatley in their own defence- even if they are facing no threats.

I find teaching an alternate behavior that does not allow for the unwanted behavior to occur works the best. For example, your dog can not be jumping up and down if you give them the command to lie down. You have to choose a conflicting alternate behavior that you want your dog to exhibit opposed to the maladaptive behaviors. When you have decided on a command that you would like practise it until it is rock solid. Praise the desired behavior heavily. Using your clicker will work well here. Rewarding with a high motivator like food is ok too. The point here is that you want your dog to know that listening to your command is good and POSITIVE. Slowly start implementing this new command in your daily routine. If you are in the garage taking out the garbage, stop and give the command. Use it everywhere and make sure that your dog obeys it. Make sure that your wife is involved and that she understands how important it is to be consistent EVERYTIME the desired behavior occurs.

Teaching alternate behaviors work wonders. I know because I have a 190lb Saint Bernard who is reactive around other intact males. We have taught him to go into a down stay when he starts to react towards other dogs. He can't react when he is in a down stay.

If you are unsure of teaching your dog these techniques on your own, find a trainer who uses positive methods. This will be beneficial for the immediate problem and also for in the future when you are doing agility. You want your dog to enjoy listening to you, not fearing you like the end result will be if you continue to use the e-collar.

Herschel · Dec 13, 2007

jjwoodee said:

Incompatible.

Cessena · Dec 13, 2007

My dog (A husky, coinicentally enough) displays similar leash agression. He gets very excited, but when we get to close he will lash out and bite. I went to an obedience class with him (which we had to leave because he was trying to bite the other dogs and genearlly shutting down) but they gave us a great article that recommended teaching an alternative behavior. (Something about Shadow? I looked online but can't find it)

So far this has actually worked REALLY well for me. I use sit and very high value treats. It took a while, and I think we really made the most progress when we worked near a chow who was in a fenced back yard, I walked him around the block near this (barkign like crazy) dog and I would keep making him sit and then treat every time he started to react. I think this has really helped both him and me because I stop seeing other dogs on our walks as an obstacle, and more of a training opportunity and so he doesn't pick up on that. (He picks up on CHEESE YAY.)

We backtracked a little bit the other week when I got blindsided by a bernese mountain dog I Didn't see coming, and I didn't have any treats on dme. But he really seems to be getting better, it is probably slower than it would be with an e-collar, and I know that I am bribing him a lot of the time but he's so stubborn to begin with I would hate how much I would have to shock him to get him to listen. At least with the bribes being around other dogs on leash is a positive experience.

Anyway, I totally agree with everyone else, fire your trainer, teach alternate behaviors. THey work! They just take longer.

adojrts · Dec 13, 2007

I agree, fire the trainer and get rid of the e collar.
When your dog got away from you wife and ran up to the other dog what did he/she do? Did it engage the other dog and grab it? Got the first bite in? If so that is DA.
If your dog didn't start the fight, then I now strongly suspect your dog has fear aggression.
I have a fear aggressive dog and it all started by getting jumped on and almost attacked by another dog when he was very young. He is not dog aggressive, he barks, snarls, snaps and lunges at other dogs when they get to close and within his comfort zone. He however does not engage them and bite if he has the opportunity, all he wants is for them to back off and stay away. He also doesn't care if that other dog is friendly or not, at least not in the beginning. Once he determines that they are not a threat and within his time (which really isn't that long, usually just a few minutes or so, depending on the size, colour and the body language of that dog) He will often then play with them or ignore them. But this was not what he was like at dog shows or agility trials or in lessons, because all of the episodes had happened in those situations. There he was very fear aggressive and reactive.
But for many years I just managed him and his surroundings. I compete a lot in agility, so I often carried him when there were lots of strange dogs around etc. But I really wasn't helping my dog, I then got smart and decided to train him, teach him to manage his own fears and to not react.
I trained him completely with a clicker and positive reinforcements including food/treats. He will now down OFF LEASH while strange large dogs, walk past him, stop/sit/down etc beside him and they can even step OVER him.
He can also do this at a great distance (hundreds of feet) from me.
Because he was already clicker trained, he was already pre conditioned to it and how he should respond. He already knew 'watch me'. I started at an outdoor agility trial, I started with him on leash and about 20 ft away from a big scary dog, when Petie started to look at the other dog, I said Watch Me, he then focused on me, C/R. We quickly progressed until he could walk past other dogs, with complete focus on me, C/R. Within the same weekend he had progressed to walking calmly through the in gate area without reacting!! Other big dogs playing tug, walking past him from any angle and from behind (his biggest fear which always made him react the worst). A month later at another trial, I was in the ring building courses, I looked over to my E-Z Up to check on Petie. He was sitting there looking at me, trying to make eye contact from all the distance, while this very large Trev with leash trailing and its hackes up paced around Petie's X-pen. He never reacted, I called YES!! and ran over and by the time I got there the other dog had been caught and was gone, Petie recieve LOTS of rewards, he deserved them. The progression that he made in 6 months was amazing, he no longer lunged forward snarling and snapping, even when people let their dogs stick their noses into his x-pen while he was in it (That something that would have had him going ape***t in the past). and he would remain calm while other strange dogs came up to him and even touched him.

And you can tell your trainer for me, that if he/she believes that clicker training and PR is briding a dog, then they have no clue as to how it works. Because with clicker training we don't have treats on us all the time and the rewards are never in our hands or often not even near us, that with clicker training you can chain together muliple behaviours and then reward when the tasks are completed, not during and not before. Like doing 22 + obstacles at speed, in complete control, with distractions while off leash. When we compete in agility, how do the Clicker trained dogs do it then? When we can't have clickers with us, we can't have food and we can't have toys/tugs in the ring? To do otherwise is called Luring or Lure Training and the two should not be confused with clicker training which is a conditioned response.

Good luck and I hope something in this helps
Lynn

lizzybeth727 · Dec 13, 2007

Cessena said:

"Bringing Light to Shadow - A Dog Trainer's Diary" by Pamela Dennison. Everything I've heard about this is that it's amazing, although I haven't read it myself (it's on my christmas list). You can also check out "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons, one of my favorite (and most used) training books.

I agree with the above, treating aggression with aggression (e-collar) will only make more aggression.

And as an amateur agility person, I know that e-collar training WILL hurt your agility training. That's what I like about agility - no matter what your dog does, you still have to stay upbeat, because he has to WANT to run the course, you can't drag him through it.

Herschel · Dec 13, 2007

You might also want to try Control Unleashed. I haven't read it but it's supposed to be an incredible resource.

http://www.amazon.com/Control-Unleashed-Creating-Focused-Confident/dp/B000UCF53A

adojrts · Dec 14, 2007

Herschel said:

My kid let the cat out of the bag...........and I think I am receiving Control Unleashed this Sunday as a X-mass present.......along with some other cool books/dvds and STUFF from Clean Run

YAY!!!!
If I do, it I should have it read for the first time by Monday, Tuesday at the latest

Herschel · Dec 14, 2007

adojrts said:

Lucky you!

Post back here after you've read it. Let us know if its as good as people claim it is.

elegy · Dec 14, 2007

pam dennison has a more practical "how to" type book about dealing with aggression called how to right a dog gone wrong. i have it here but i haven't read it yet. it looks good though. also, brenda aloff's book aggression in dogs is a phenomenal resource.

pafla · Dec 14, 2007

My dog is also fear aggressive and she is worse on leash but if you would see her now in most occassions you would never guess.I used positive reinforcment and desentization.Know all she does is heel and look at me.If she starts to get upset-change in breathing,change of body posture,hair raising-all I need to do is give sit command and she will sit and watch me.She will allow other dog to sniff her and ignore him.In training the only thing she sees is me.Other dogs are ignored.The only time she reacts is with four dogs in are park who attacked her couple of times when she was on-leash-and still even then with treats-but used as lures she can be calmed down.I would never use e-collar on a fear aggressive dog.

jjwoodee · Dec 14, 2007

reply to all who have commented

First off, thanks for all the responses. It's hard to respond to all the comments directly but its nice when their is good an genuine responses. I had reservations about the ecollar and what initially sold me on introducing the technique to training(basic obedience) is the wife's incident and several
dog owners in the neighborhood have used the ecollar. Their dogs are happy, obedient and amazing to watch their well mannered behavior at the local dog parks. After reading http://www.loucastle.com./ it
dispelled some of my myths and I feel the ecollar is good tool when used properly.I think some of the ecollar comments stem from ignorance of the product. Police dogs and working dogs are often trained with e-collar. The new ecollars have controlled levels of stimulation and if have ever felt the stimulation its a little uncomfortable(like a buzz) but not painful. My wife and I have both felt the stimulation.

As I have stated I would like to eventually get into agility and I realize that e-collar trained dogs aren't welcome in this area - and I would never subject e-collar training and reinforcement during an obstacle course.

Dogs have to want to perform these obstacles and I can totally see why treats,and praise work well. With the one obstacle I have (a hurdle) he does well and loves the challenge. At no point do I introduce ecollar stimulation when practicing hurdles. It's so duanting to take on or even attempt to
learn all the training methods out there. I suppose its similiar to raising children.

Their are different parenting styles - alot are right and some wrong, and their are a lot of opinions on how to do it right. I don't have children but hope to someday.

adojrts, your post on clicker training was helpful. Your question "When your dog got away from you wife and ran up to the other dog what did he/she do? Did it engage the other dog and grab it? Got the first bite in? If so that is DA."

My wife did not see the initial contact as a car passed obstructing her view but she could hear a lot of aggressive barking. The other dog was a bigger white husky and from what I have witnessed and heard huskies dont bark. The husky got several bites in on my dog peircing skin in several place on my dogs left rump side. Along with the bites Picaso suffered two broken ribs, but through it all he seemed immune to the pain. This is an incident I wish not to repeat. Hearing the wails your significant other in pain from a bloodied, bitten up hand and seeing your dog's defeated behavior for couple of days was
too much to bear. But I can't give up my training. We love our dog.

Maxy24, if you could pass along the names of some good trainers that would be helpful. My dog does not always shown aggression toward other dogs(and never humans) while on leash. Sometimes he emitts those play whines and gets excited in playful manner. However with strange dogs (small and big), and especially all husky types he gets aggressive. It's embarrasing.

SaintGirl, your alternate behavior suggestion of down stay is great suggestion. I did attempt this outside on our walk today within several feet of some overly excited and barking scottish terriers, and he did show enough progress to warrant the effort and keep trying. Thank you!

corgipower · Dec 14, 2007

There are many misconceptions about ecollars. There also are many trainers who use them incorrectly, which only serves to confirm the misconceptions.

A properly used ecollar can be a valuable tool. An improperly used ecollar can be very dangerous. I have been trained in the use of ecollars, and I have seen them used correctly and incorrectly.

The way the ecollar use is described in the first post leads me to believe it is being improperly used.
This describes an overloaded dog:

As loading increases~
1. The pain tolerance increases
2. The ability to learn decreases
If he becomes disinterested in treats he is overloaded.

The only solution when the dog is overloaded is to change the stimulus causing the overload, in this case, the presence or proximity of another dog.

Training a default behavior (in this case, heeling) can be very useful. This can be done with positive reinforcement. The dog also needs to be gradually reintroduced to friendly huskies. Also, if the dog is only defensive when on leash, it could very well be something the handler is doing -- such as a slight change in body language, a tightening on the leash, different breathing -- that the dog is picking up on.

As for ecollars being used during agiltiy training, it has been done by several people I know with excellent results, but it is not something I would suggest anyone attempt.

adojrts · Dec 14, 2007

corgipower said:

To what level? They compete at the Worlds or obtain any MACHs?
E collars are a lazy uneducated way to train a dog for agility in my opinion. And it goes against what agility is all about. Show up at an agility trial with an e collar on your dog and see the reaction that you get. Especially considering there are very successful trainers there that in the past have gone down that road. They will tell you, you don't get a world class performance out of the dog, which is what many want. Personally I would rather strive to be a better trainer of my dog/s, than to resort to an E, that would just prove I couldn't or can't get it otherwise.

lizzybeth727 · Dec 14, 2007

jjwoodee said:

I know that training dogs is not the same as raising children. However, since you brought it up, dogs and humans do feel many of the same types of emotions - happy, excited, sad, depressed, scared, mad, etc. In the case of your dog, he is scared when he sees other dogs.

Let's say your child was scared of, maybe, a really tall, scary looking man, and started screaming right there in the middle of the store when he saw one, what would you do? Let's also say that for whatever reason, your child doesn't speak the same language as you, so you can't explain that this is not a scary man. Your first thought is to get your child to stop screaming. You could cover your child's mouth, but he's still scared and might kick you or wiggle away. You could pinch his arm (not hard enough to cause a bruise, but hard enough to get his attention) - he'd probably stop screaming, but he's still scared of the man. He really didn't learn anything. A better idea would be to get the kid away so he can't hear or see the scary man. Wait until the kid calmed down, and then go see the man from a very far distance, and hug and praise the kid for looking bravely at the man.

Obviously there are a lot of differences here, but I think you can understand that punishing your dog for being scared of another dog is not going to make him less scared. It will only cause more problems in the long run.

jjwoodee · Dec 14, 2007

The trainer corrected me on my approach in the last session when approached by a strange dog that drives my pooches agitation. I've made afew modifications based on my
further reading and pointers in this forum.

1. Maintain a loose leash(or rather give enough slack to lesson tension) at all times. No tension or jerking and maintain my calm.
2. Issue a down/stay command or walk back and forth with heel exercises.

Corgipower,

Depending on the dogs (especially a few of the neighborhood fence chargers), he is doing better. I've gotten to the point where he can staydown or walk the heel exercises
as an improvement. Still a bit fidgety but better since this is day two of my mofifications.

In the heel exercise, I might administer a nick if he doesn't follow the heel but he is at the point this rarely occurs now - he's such a dream now to walk, no pulling or tuggin etc.

corgipower · Dec 14, 2007

adojrts said:

i don't know what level. they used it to increase reliability.

what exactly is agility about? for some, it's simply about navigating the obstacles and qualifying.

besides, as i said

lizzybeth727 · Dec 14, 2007

corgipower said:

What I like about agility is that it's completely optional. Obedience training is (or should be) required; training police dogs is required; I can understand (though never suggest) about one in a million dogs that the first method of choice would be an e-collar to train obedience or other required behaviors.

Agility, though, is just a game. It's about learning how to communicate with your dog. It's about knowing how your dog moves and developing a strategy to use that knowledge to help your dog perform the best he can. It's about letting your dog go a little crazy, but still teaching him that you have complete control. It's a relationship-builder.

If agility is "simply about navigating the obsticles and qualifying," you AND your dog are going to get bored with it and never make it far.

E-collars, and other aversive training methods, have no place in agility training. In fact, you can get disqualified from a trial if the judge thinks you're being too negative to your dog.

corgipower · Dec 14, 2007

lizzybeth727 said:

I agree that ecollars should rarely, if ever, be the first method of choice. I might use them when other options have failed.

Well, actually Ares did agility training in a prong collar, and he did occasionally receive corrections. Early on in his agility training, he was still "collar smart", and without the prong collar on, all our obedience went out the window. He never lost his enthusiasm for the sport. The only thing that limited his agility career was that I lost access to equipment and couldn't practice for over a year, and that I underestimated the importance of contact zones which resulted in an injury to him. The corrections in no way hampered his ability to run agility.

Again, I wouldn't advise it for most dogs and handlers.

On-leash aggression on walks

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