Martin Richling Q&A

[Zoom]

Another fact that is getting missed between the two divisions is not that we're simply taking the word of some new poster whom we don't know from Adam. What has us all fired up and "witch-hunting" is what we've been able to pull up off of Richling's website, his own words and videos. You guys should see what we've said about Leerburg and Frawley Dutchie, that was a good post and one of the better ones I've seen by the "New Camp".

I am not a purely positive trainer, I'm not that good yet. I do still use the occassional collar correction, though it is backed up with ample praise/treats when the dog does what it's asked, and no correction is ever given until I'm certain that the dog does have a very good idea of what to do, it's just being an ADD lab mix. That being said, I have had so many more lasting and quicker-learned results when I began to use positive reinforcement techniques. That Kerry Blue I've posted about twice now (and that question has still been ignored) is just the most recent example. I am the only person on my staff that feels comfortable handling the dog, who has already bitten another worker out of cage aggression and was literally throwing himself at the door to his room over food aggression yesterday. For me, the dog will happily and gently take food from my hand, will sit on one command and let me take off his lead without so much as rolling his eyes. All of this was accomplished using solely praise and a few well-timed treats. And talking; it's amazing what that can do sometimes, which is also funny in it's own right since I have to stop my clients from jabbering at their dogs to the point the dogs tune out everything they say.

And my dog will do that 100 yard non-stop recall and almost knock me over at the end, lol.

 

[Renee750il]

Yah, I've always kind of taken that recall for granted - especially with Bimmer. He can be completely out of sight in the pasture and appears like the wind at his whistle. Kharma will too (as long as she's not putting the cows in the barn ) So does Shiva.

I never thought anything about it - all of my dogs have always been that way, even (or especially) the ones I've gotten as adults from the pound. I didn't realize it was anything special until I read about people having to train for that!

 

[Dutchie]

Sure, there are many methods out there. That's the beauty of free choice. Regardless of what what your position is, it was your choice. Most of the individuals that have joined Richling's program have been through other the other methods and they simply weren't satisfied with the end result. Some may attribute that to lack of discipline within the positive reinforcement method, but I highly doubt it. His program requires discipline on the handler's part. People may be under the impression that we come out swinging at the dog from the get go, and this is false. Basic obedience entails placing the dog first (I think some people may have called this molding?). You physically show the dog what you want it to do - physically meaning that you gently roll the dog back into a sit and then praise, or gently move the dog into a down and then praising afterwords. There's no correction at this point. Depending on the dog, they may have to be placed for a few days or a few weeks. When that time has passed, the dog is held accountable for what it has learned. Corrections aren't severe (severe being subjective for each person and based on the dog itself) if the handler has been consistenly placing the dog and praising accordingly. If the handler has been doing what they've been told to do, the dog will master the basics and move on without any problems. If the dog isn't doing what it's supposed to do, then that's the handler's fault because they either weren't consistent or didn't follow the instruction properly. I think that this would apply to any training method really. If a person only occasionally or sporadically worked the dog in obedience, regardless of the method, I doubt that the training would stick with the dog ... period. If done properly, Richling's obedience method doesn't take more than 20 minutes a day, five days a week ... and we're certainly not swinging away at our dogs every chance we get. I have described how basic obedience works under Richling's method (which includes sits, downs, stays in sits and downs, and recalls). How does positive reinforcement/treat training compare to this? How long does it take? I am curious about the actual method, how many times a week the dog is worked and for how long. My dog had this mastered after about 5 weeks and I never once had to use the infamous stave/plastic stick/schlagstock on my dog because I simply followed the training. Perhaps it's not the method, but the fact that alot of pet owners are lazy, waiting until their dog's behavior manifests itself in such a severe form that such a "severe" method is required. Just a thought ...

 

[Zoom]

Yes, I would agree and say that the majority of "pet people" are lazy and uninformed until they are faced with a huge issue. I get to deal with these untrained dogs every day of the week and thank God I'm stronger than I look, because a 100 lb dog with no leash manners is an accident waiting to happen. I show my clients how to incorporate training into their daily routine, because they're more likely to follow through if they don't feel like they have to "suit up" for training. Do I wish they would? You betcha. I can always tell the difference between those people who take the time to do regimented training sessions on top of the daily routine and those who just sort of do 5 minutes a couple times a week and then wonder why their dog isn't really improving.

It depends on the dog on whether or not physical molding is going to work. The foster Lab I had that I was training to be a quasi-service dog for my grandmother was a good example. If you pushed on the dog's hindquarters to try and get her to drop them, she would only push back more firmly. I ended up being able to train this into "Brace" quite easily, but it was useless for sit. She learned in one session after I simply kept a hand on her collar to keep her from backing up or jumping and lured her into place with a small treat. This was a dog that would either shut down on a correction or just take it and keep on doing what she was doing (caught her in the trash one time and instead of her stopping when I hollared "what are you doing??" she just hunched her shoulders and kept on going). That lead me to believe that someone had tried to forcefully train her (got her from a shelter when she about 4y) and she developed her own response to it. Pushing the issue only made her shut down and not want to do anything.

When done correctly, PR training doesn't take long at all and produces very reliable results, because you have shown the dog how to think and "tricked" it into thinking that you're working for him, when it's really the other way around. Either way, both of you are happier. Of course, every dog is different and I'm sure you could easily find 10 people to say "but I tried that and it didn't woooork". I handle 70 dogs on a daily basis and I know what works for them and me.

 

[Renee750il]

You know, we may be looking at this through the wrong glass. Maybe it IS the "average pet owner" who needs this kind of training . . . the one who doesn't really have that inner capacity to take that last step and not only have a dog as a companion, but to really and truly accept that dog as another sentient being with independent intelligence and will. Sometimes some of us just can't give up the idea that we should have something - whether it's our children, our dogs, our spouses or our employees - that should perform unquestioningly at our beck and call.

Sure, there are some things that aren't negotiable, for obvious reasons, but there are a lot of things that some of us impose on our dogs that are purely arbitrary and pointless. For instance, does it really matter if your dog is sitting or laying down at any given moment? If your dog is by your side or within an acceptable distance and isn't taking off does it really matter what position the dog is in?

 

[Dutchie]

Yes, there are things that are purely arbitrary and pointless that are imposed on dogs, but again, it's subjective. I personally think that dressing a dog up is ridiculous and serves no real purpose, but if someone else wants to engage in that activity, fine. If I am working my dog in obedience, then it should obey. Do I work my dog in obedience 24/7, no. Do I expect excellent behavior from my dog at all times? YES. Maybe some folks are getting obedience and behavior confused with one another. They aren't totally separate from one another, a dog can display behavior without being engaged in "obedience". At this point, maybe the misunderstanding between the two main schools of thought in this forum is merely semantics.

Many of Richling's faithful members have been with him for at least three or four years. Upon reading this thread, many believe that dogs trained in this method will eventually turn on the master and act out, yet I have not seen this from from any of these dogs that are simply kept as companion pets, and I have not seen it from the working dogs either. Just curious, but how would one explain that? ("Because they're too scared" isn't an acceptable answer either)

 

[Dutchie]

I don't think that anyone from Richling's "camp" explicitly said that we believed that dogs lacked intelligence. We all acknowlege that our dogs are highly intelligent, it's just a matter of what the dog chooses to do when they have use of their free will. Nor do we fail to acknowlege that our dogs are creatures and beings. But as stated in a previous post, maybe society is guilty of animorphism. Why project our needs and wants onto any animal then? Why domesticate any animal if it's for our own selfish purpose or utility? If that's the case, then both schools of thought are essentially guilty of the same thing. You can't call the kettle black when you're engaging in the same activity, albeit "a more gentler form". Maybe I am playing Devil's Advocate, but that doesn't seem like a fair "argument" when both "camps" are working towards the same goal, but with different methods.

 

[Dekka]

20 in a day is still a lot. I find 5 min of clicker stuff. (because the dog is actively learning not being passively molded...not that I have anything against that. I have done a bit of that in my puppy classes, it is easier for joe average dog owner, that actually work at having good timing) When doing obed, I expect my dogs to obey too. Or else what is the point of it. (my dogs are titled, and have one multiple HITS..so I do actually have some 'proof' that I am not just saying what I think 'should work')

I stopped using corrections when I had an a couple of issues that wouldn't resolve.. My dog lagged in the heel. I had shown him where heel was. I had rewarded when in heel. I gave collar corrections when he wasn't. The lagging was getting slowly but surely worse. I was told to give bigger leash pops. Lagging got worse, but now a bit more quickly. Over the week, I took him out off leash around the farm, and simply ignored the lagging (correcting it wasn't working so I decided all I was doing was potentially harming my dogs trachea) and C/T when he was in heel. Next time we went to the club, no lagging. That started me thinking. The other issue I had, was that he had a great stay. Would stay even with dogs in heat beside him (hes a breeding male) balls, chittering life like squirrel toys, and even a remote control car and hover craft. But he would go down on his out of sight sit stays. I had other people in the ring put him back up. I had others say 'no' etc. I lost a few legs because while the rest of our open routine was great, we would fail because of the down on the long sit. So I thought, the clicker worked for the heeling..., and tried that. I would put him in the kitchen and leave. I started by coming back in 30 seconds, if he was still sitting, C/T if not, I asked him to sit and left again. After about 5 sessions of that, I now have a dog who has not gone down in the sit again.

So just saying harsh (to the dog) corrections can actually be detrimental to what you are working on.

 

[Dekka]

ot treats but loving hugs, petting and praise.

That is because it has becomed a conditioned non punishment marker. Dogs don't value praise or hugs (especially hugs) These are primate based things. dogs learn to value these, either as conditioned reinforcments, or as no punishment markers. I have a dog that would find a hug very punishing.

How many dogs have anyone seen that will run directly to their owner when called from over 100 yards and not stop for a moment to check out other dogs or people that are placed inbetween the two.

Mine (they are also known to retrieve food without out eating it...)

Pos. training does work with some dogs if conducted correctly but not to the level of MR's methods.

This is so not true as to be laughable. People have been training animals of many species with over 98% reliability without using PHYSICAL corrections. There was a dog that one a big (I think worlds level..can find out if anyone cares) Schutzhund competition, that was positively trained. This is a dog who flunked out of a german based (very successful with other dogs) training school as not 'tough' enough.

 

[Martin Richling]

Any kiddies want to play??

 

[Martin Richling]

Hurry up...I ain't got all day today.

 

[Dekka]

Perhaps you could answer some of the ones left from yesterday.

 

[Martin Richling]

Ask again kiddo...I am not searching again through all that trash.

 

[Labra]

How many dogs have anyone seen that will run directly to their owner when called from over 100 yards and not stop for a moment to check out other dogs or people that are placed inbetween the two.

Most pet dogs are perfectly capable of achieving this.

One of my Labs is trained for hunting. He has no trouble listening to my every word, off leash, sitting quietly at heel or being commanded (hunting up game or being sent in for a retrieve), in a field full of dozens of people (hundreds of we are at a hunt test), other dogs (again, hundreds if we are at a hunt test), gunshots, bolting rabbits, birds and every other sight and smell imaginable. And guess what? I have never raised a finger to him.

 

[Martin Richling]

My oh my...are not we the clever trainer.

 

[Labra]

My oh my...are not we the clever trainer.

What?

 

[Martin Richling]

Just so all of you liberal fruitcakes understand the rules today...I tried yesterday to answer your foolish questions with correct answers. You all turned into NUTS. So.....today i am going to handle you all a little different...he he he

 

[Labra]

Gosh, what a mature man you are.

 

[Labra]

You must be enjoying this attention.

 

[Dekka]

Ask again kiddo...I am not searching again through all that trash.

Please to not call me Kiddo. You have no idea my age, and it is insulting, and makes you look arrogant. (maybe you are..I don't know you well enough) And since you seem incapable of reading what you ask for I shall deliver it..

post numbers 188 and post # 244

Thank you