Iditarod 2008 Death & Injury Statistics
- Thread starter lakotasong
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LOLRTF...I assume you're talking about me:yikes:. Let me remind you that 1) I am no longer actively mushing and 2) I first joined this board as a result of you disparaging me and a very well bred dog from a highly respected breeder not to mention your public post to a prospective conformation judge offering untruthful "information" about me intended to sabotage my dogs in the show ring. And now you're accusing me of profiting?
However, to get back to the current topic, unless one is a puppymill investing nothing into health testing, training, learning, competition, etc., there is NO profit and this is something that I would like everyone here to think about for a minute. Truthfully, I have no problem with some of the larger races like the Iditarod offering cash prizes because they do little more than help offset some of the expenses of a very costly sport. Let's just take feeding for a minute. Even super premium kibble is inadequate. There are still too many fillers and it results in GI irritation and diarrhea during serious training. Though some mushers may include kibble for up to 50% of the diet with the rationale that it provides a balance of nutrients, most sled dogs eat a diet of 50% or more raw meat, tripe, bones, and fat supplements. Let's say for a minute that a resourceful Iditarod musher can find sources that result in a total feeding/supplementation cost of $1/day/dog which I feel is conservative. If the 2008 Iditarod winner has 100 dogs, his $69,000 purse will be more than half gobbled up by $36,500 of sled dog chow! Now add in the cost of vet care, medication, harnesses & gear, kennel supplies, housing, kennel help, logistical support, transportation, hotel and entry fees, feeding/housing the human family, etc., and the fact that there are a heck of a lot more losers than winners in every event. A get rich sport this ain't, so if the OP knows a way, I would be happy to listen. The most I've ever brought home from a conformation show or a sled dog event, excluding a lot of ribbons, certificates, and trophis, was about $100 and once 10 bags of food which we donated to our local shelter. However, we had a great time!
This is in no way to overshadow that abuses do occasionally occur and I totally agree they should be immediately corrected and penalized, but I believe a reasonable person spending time with most of those involved in the sport will find that abuse is not the norm at all. Now some people may not be used to dogs living outdoors as many sled dogs do, but a human perception of something unfamiliar does not necessarily mean behavioral and physical needs of the dogs are not being met. Even the number of dropped dogs in the Iditarod is no argument. Dogs get dropped some years (to prevent them from ever reaching the point of lasting physical harm) only to come back and finish the race the next year thus validating that the Iditarod animal welfare policies do work and will hopefully continue to improve.
For example, take a look at this musher's site and the previous race history of her 2008 Iditarod team: http://www.northwapiti.com/Iditarod2K8/2008iditarodteam.html. Most are veterans from previous Iditarods, some of which they finished and some of which they didn't (i.e. team scratched or individually dropped), but it illustrates there is value in ensuring long term health and that experience is hard to replace. I'm not sure what else I can say except that I have no personal stake in this kennel, the Iditarod, or any other competitive mushing event! I do however believe there is no more spiritually rewarding and bond strengthening activity that one could participate in with their huskies, so I don't want everyone here to automatically presume abuse every time they see a team working.
Debbie
However, to get back to the current topic, unless one is a puppymill investing nothing into health testing, training, learning, competition, etc., there is NO profit and this is something that I would like everyone here to think about for a minute. Truthfully, I have no problem with some of the larger races like the Iditarod offering cash prizes because they do little more than help offset some of the expenses of a very costly sport. Let's just take feeding for a minute. Even super premium kibble is inadequate. There are still too many fillers and it results in GI irritation and diarrhea during serious training. Though some mushers may include kibble for up to 50% of the diet with the rationale that it provides a balance of nutrients, most sled dogs eat a diet of 50% or more raw meat, tripe, bones, and fat supplements. Let's say for a minute that a resourceful Iditarod musher can find sources that result in a total feeding/supplementation cost of $1/day/dog which I feel is conservative. If the 2008 Iditarod winner has 100 dogs, his $69,000 purse will be more than half gobbled up by $36,500 of sled dog chow! Now add in the cost of vet care, medication, harnesses & gear, kennel supplies, housing, kennel help, logistical support, transportation, hotel and entry fees, feeding/housing the human family, etc., and the fact that there are a heck of a lot more losers than winners in every event. A get rich sport this ain't, so if the OP knows a way, I would be happy to listen. The most I've ever brought home from a conformation show or a sled dog event, excluding a lot of ribbons, certificates, and trophis, was about $100 and once 10 bags of food which we donated to our local shelter. However, we had a great time!
This is in no way to overshadow that abuses do occasionally occur and I totally agree they should be immediately corrected and penalized, but I believe a reasonable person spending time with most of those involved in the sport will find that abuse is not the norm at all. Now some people may not be used to dogs living outdoors as many sled dogs do, but a human perception of something unfamiliar does not necessarily mean behavioral and physical needs of the dogs are not being met. Even the number of dropped dogs in the Iditarod is no argument. Dogs get dropped some years (to prevent them from ever reaching the point of lasting physical harm) only to come back and finish the race the next year thus validating that the Iditarod animal welfare policies do work and will hopefully continue to improve.
For example, take a look at this musher's site and the previous race history of her 2008 Iditarod team: http://www.northwapiti.com/Iditarod2K8/2008iditarodteam.html. Most are veterans from previous Iditarods, some of which they finished and some of which they didn't (i.e. team scratched or individually dropped), but it illustrates there is value in ensuring long term health and that experience is hard to replace. I'm not sure what else I can say except that I have no personal stake in this kennel, the Iditarod, or any other competitive mushing event! I do however believe there is no more spiritually rewarding and bond strengthening activity that one could participate in with their huskies, so I don't want everyone here to automatically presume abuse every time they see a team working.
Debbie
Oh for ***** sake, Melissa nor I when I posted the question to you are talking about when a dog is retired but when they are active in the sport!! How could those dogs go from being in a warm heated kennel/house etc and then be expected to stay outside????? That would be cruel and dangerous.
And as for Blood work, just how often does the average dog have that done??? Unless a vet is looking for something or suspects something, drawing blood each year just isn't done. I've got dogs in my own house that have NEVER had a CBC done, unless ***I *** ask for it, the vet certainly doesn't demand it be done. What a bunch of BS.
And as for Blood work, just how often does the average dog have that done??? Unless a vet is looking for something or suspects something, drawing blood each year just isn't done. I've got dogs in my own house that have NEVER had a CBC done, unless ***I *** ask for it, the vet certainly doesn't demand it be done. What a bunch of BS.
I've kept young dogs indoors and have had no problem hooking them into harness, running them, letting them cool off and returning them to the house. It can be done. It just takes proper grooming, proper hydration, and being aware of your dog's physical state. Many racing dogs these days have quite short coats to begin with, and the house really doesn't pose that big of an issue for them.
I perform semi-annual geriatric blood work on all of my dogs over 10. My dogs receive annual exams and I also perform full pre anesthetic blood profiles when they are anesthetized for dental cleanings or spaying and neutering.
I also run full general health profiles on my rescues before they are adopted out.
I think it is a good idea to have a baseline profile done periodically when a dog is healthy so you can compare years down the road or in case the dog becomes sick or injured.
I perform semi-annual geriatric blood work on all of my dogs over 10. My dogs receive annual exams and I also perform full pre anesthetic blood profiles when they are anesthetized for dental cleanings or spaying and neutering.
I also run full general health profiles on my rescues before they are adopted out.
I think it is a good idea to have a baseline profile done periodically when a dog is healthy so you can compare years down the road or in case the dog becomes sick or injured.
Oh please give me a break!!! Most vets recommend that any dog that is getting older have CBC's done!! And most vets recommend that any dog getting older have CBC's done as a baseline years before as a comparison.
And most vets recommend or just do a CBC when a dog under goes any procedure!! But if a dog isn't older and doesn't under go any procedures than it is unlikely that it will have regular CBC's done unless requested by the owner!!
Do you compete with your sled dogs? Do you win???
Do you take you dogs to a Canine Sports Medicine Vet for yearly X-rays and/or ultrasounds as a preventive? Have the heart checked? How about regular Chiropractic care, like once a month while that dog is in heavy training or competing??????????? How about doing Gait Analysis, ever had that done??????????
And most vets recommend or just do a CBC when a dog under goes any procedure!! But if a dog isn't older and doesn't under go any procedures than it is unlikely that it will have regular CBC's done unless requested by the owner!!
Do you compete with your sled dogs? Do you win???
Do you take you dogs to a Canine Sports Medicine Vet for yearly X-rays and/or ultrasounds as a preventive? Have the heart checked? How about regular Chiropractic care, like once a month while that dog is in heavy training or competing??????????? How about doing Gait Analysis, ever had that done??????????
Exactly. I request them.
Most of my dogs are retired now. I have competed in a few races and finished well, but didn't ever finish first (though I finished third twice, if memory serves). I have competed in agility, obedience and junior handling with my own dogs. I have competed in AKC obedience in the past (two CD titles) and currently compete in Rally when I have the time (Arthur earned his RN and also an RA leg, Windy needs to start trialing yet). I finished Arthur in three straight trials (finishing the last leg with a third placement) in Novice B for a CD title. I've also won two Highest Scoring Siberian prizes. When I competed in 4H, I had numerous Grand Champion placements for years at county levels of obedience, agility and junior handling - I also placed third in obedience at the State Fair with Arthur.
I had basic x-rays done on Arthur while we were competing in agility. When I was racing, I was working for a major kennel - they were not my dogs and I did not have the option to x-ray them or anything of the sort.
I monitor and supplement my oldies well, and would not hesitate if I and my veterinarian felt there was a need to x-ray any of my dogs.
Edited to add - I'm well aware of the physical demands a serious working dog goes through, and the preventative steps to take to assure that the dog is not injured. I do not have dogs that are involved in this kind of training. But if I did, I would surely utilize the options available. I'm only half an hour from Cornell and another small animal clinic in Ithaca which offers some great sports medicine programs and staffs a number of specialty doctors.
Most of my dogs are retired now. I have competed in a few races and finished well, but didn't ever finish first (though I finished third twice, if memory serves). I have competed in agility, obedience and junior handling with my own dogs. I have competed in AKC obedience in the past (two CD titles) and currently compete in Rally when I have the time (Arthur earned his RN and also an RA leg, Windy needs to start trialing yet). I finished Arthur in three straight trials (finishing the last leg with a third placement) in Novice B for a CD title. I've also won two Highest Scoring Siberian prizes. When I competed in 4H, I had numerous Grand Champion placements for years at county levels of obedience, agility and junior handling - I also placed third in obedience at the State Fair with Arthur.
I had basic x-rays done on Arthur while we were competing in agility. When I was racing, I was working for a major kennel - they were not my dogs and I did not have the option to x-ray them or anything of the sort.
I monitor and supplement my oldies well, and would not hesitate if I and my veterinarian felt there was a need to x-ray any of my dogs.
Edited to add - I'm well aware of the physical demands a serious working dog goes through, and the preventative steps to take to assure that the dog is not injured. I do not have dogs that are involved in this kind of training. But if I did, I would surely utilize the options available. I'm only half an hour from Cornell and another small animal clinic in Ithaca which offers some great sports medicine programs and staffs a number of specialty doctors.
So the answer is No.
In my opinion YOU didn't care for your athletes, that YOU fell very short of what I expect of an owner to do when competing.
Years ago, when I started racing my dogs and then doing agility with them, I contacted a guy that I knew raced Sled dogs, I knew he was very successful and he was a weath of info on how to care for canine athletes, he was very happy to show me his feeding program, supplements (and where to get them, but then he gave me a years supply, so that wasn't an issue at first). He directed me to having my dogs annually x-rayed, CBC's done and to a Canine Sports Medicine Vet, gait analysis etc and he just confirmed what I already knew from my history of Race Horses, he just pointed me to the best in the Dog world.
That is the funny thing about throwing stones when living in glass houses, because you didn't measure up to what I expect of someone with canine athletes...............go figure. And darlin, I don't get seconds and thirds, we win...........and my dogs have very long sound careers and continue to WIN.
In my opinion YOU didn't care for your athletes, that YOU fell very short of what I expect of an owner to do when competing.
Years ago, when I started racing my dogs and then doing agility with them, I contacted a guy that I knew raced Sled dogs, I knew he was very successful and he was a weath of info on how to care for canine athletes, he was very happy to show me his feeding program, supplements (and where to get them, but then he gave me a years supply, so that wasn't an issue at first). He directed me to having my dogs annually x-rayed, CBC's done and to a Canine Sports Medicine Vet, gait analysis etc and he just confirmed what I already knew from my history of Race Horses, he just pointed me to the best in the Dog world.
That is the funny thing about throwing stones when living in glass houses, because you didn't measure up to what I expect of someone with canine athletes...............go figure. And darlin, I don't get seconds and thirds, we win...........and my dogs have very long sound careers and continue to WIN.
You are grasping at straws because you do not like the argument I present.
I just truly cannot grasp why so many of the people on this forum do not care about the suffering these dogs endure.
All of my dogs, every single one I own, is a rescue. I do not breed, though I have strong beliefs regarding breeding ethics and could possibly see myself putting them into practice someday. I understand that you are proud of dogs that (I presume) you produced - I would be too, if I were in the same situation.
However, this is a prime example of the sad side of the dog world.
I compete in dog sports with my animals because it's fun. It's fun for me, and it's fun for my dogs. It's fun for the public, and every time I attend a dog show, I get the chance to show people that Siberian Huskies can in fact be trained and do well in a performance venue other than racing. People realize that these dogs can walk politely on lead, and be well mannered members of society. I've met some great people doing PR work with my dogs both locally and regionally, and I have helped a number of folks out with with their own dog issues - especially with Siberians.
My dogs are my family, they're not trophies, a method of income, a source of personal gratification, or anything like that. I love my dogs, and we enjoy competing in sports together - for fun. If we get titles (which we have) it's great, I think it is a good example for other Siberian enthusiasts that it can be done if you put the effort into forming that kind of bond with your dog.
I know that every time I bring up the Iditarod and wanting to reform the standards of sled dog care, that I get blasted on a personal level. It's just really unfortunate that some of you seem to have lost sight of why we have our dogs to begin with. My dogs are amazing competitors and in the past have been amazing athletes, but that doesn't change the fact at the end of the day that they are my pets and my family and they deserve to be treated as such.
However, this is a prime example of the sad side of the dog world.
I compete in dog sports with my animals because it's fun. It's fun for me, and it's fun for my dogs. It's fun for the public, and every time I attend a dog show, I get the chance to show people that Siberian Huskies can in fact be trained and do well in a performance venue other than racing. People realize that these dogs can walk politely on lead, and be well mannered members of society. I've met some great people doing PR work with my dogs both locally and regionally, and I have helped a number of folks out with with their own dog issues - especially with Siberians.
My dogs are my family, they're not trophies, a method of income, a source of personal gratification, or anything like that. I love my dogs, and we enjoy competing in sports together - for fun. If we get titles (which we have) it's great, I think it is a good example for other Siberian enthusiasts that it can be done if you put the effort into forming that kind of bond with your dog.
I know that every time I bring up the Iditarod and wanting to reform the standards of sled dog care, that I get blasted on a personal level. It's just really unfortunate that some of you seem to have lost sight of why we have our dogs to begin with. My dogs are amazing competitors and in the past have been amazing athletes, but that doesn't change the fact at the end of the day that they are my pets and my family and they deserve to be treated as such.
I HAVE to say something,,,,,,, I know Ado/ Lynn personally and can tell you this, her dogs are better cared for than most I know, the idea of them as trophies is truly funny..... Just because she competes with them with success does not mean they are "trophy" pets.... Lynn has dogs in her home that she does not compete with but are loved family pets... ALL her dogs sleep in beds, poor things.... She does not rehome them if they are unable to "perform" Is that the attitude of someone "In it for the Money??" Ps... I promise you there is no profit in being a truly responsible breeder!!!
I also disagree specifically with this:
Everything most people do is for this reason, even when you help others, and animals etc... we do it because it makes us feel good ( personal gratification ) even if we do not like to talk about it...
I also disagree specifically with this:
Everything most people do is for this reason, even when you help others, and animals etc... we do it because it makes us feel good ( personal gratification ) even if we do not like to talk about it...
Hey Laura thanks!!!
Summit;
I have worked and competed with animals for my whole life including rescue.
And I know that there are abuses that goes on, but I also know that such events such as the Iditarod, can not carry on without being governed and improvements, especially today where there is so much media.
Because of my experiences behind the scenes of horse racing, I know what it takes to have a top level athlete and I know the care that is involved in producing such an athlete, therefore I don't buy into the 'all dogs/horses that compete in ........blank' are abused or gotten rid of after their glory days are over.
The animals are watched and observed by too many people that don't have agenda and many of those people are professionals. Professionals that are there for the well being of the animal and not the trainers/owners etc.
Therefore you can't paint the entire event with one brush..................
Summit;
I have worked and competed with animals for my whole life including rescue.
And I know that there are abuses that goes on, but I also know that such events such as the Iditarod, can not carry on without being governed and improvements, especially today where there is so much media.
Because of my experiences behind the scenes of horse racing, I know what it takes to have a top level athlete and I know the care that is involved in producing such an athlete, therefore I don't buy into the 'all dogs/horses that compete in ........blank' are abused or gotten rid of after their glory days are over.
The animals are watched and observed by too many people that don't have agenda and many of those people are professionals. Professionals that are there for the well being of the animal and not the trainers/owners etc.
Therefore you can't paint the entire event with one brush..................
Summit;
You seem to be contradicting yourself here just a little bit................I thought your dogs lived in the house???
My retired sled dogs (except my 16 year old Alaskan, Nika) live outside full time and have access to the barn and their indoor kennels, or they can go outside in their yards (8 foot fence, with buried fencing to prevent digging). So they pretty much do whatever they please.
And to clarify, yep I am questioning what you say and do with your dogs.......because actions do speak louder than a whole bunch of proganda.
You question how people on this forum can support or in your words ignore what in your in opinion is abuse. We don't, everyone here has stated many times that anyone abusing their sled dogs either before or during a race should be nailed and not allowed to race etc. But we also believe that everyone that races can be accused of abuse, nor do we believe that such a race should be stopped because of the abuse of some.............
You seem to be contradicting yourself here just a little bit................I thought your dogs lived in the house???
My retired sled dogs (except my 16 year old Alaskan, Nika) live outside full time and have access to the barn and their indoor kennels, or they can go outside in their yards (8 foot fence, with buried fencing to prevent digging). So they pretty much do whatever they please.
And to clarify, yep I am questioning what you say and do with your dogs.......because actions do speak louder than a whole bunch of proganda.
You question how people on this forum can support or in your words ignore what in your in opinion is abuse. We don't, everyone here has stated many times that anyone abusing their sled dogs either before or during a race should be nailed and not allowed to race etc. But we also believe that everyone that races can be accused of abuse, nor do we believe that such a race should be stopped because of the abuse of some.............
So you do the basic vet care on your dogs sumimit. Good for you. I hope you hear the sarcasim. Whats wrong with money as a prize? Why would pro handlers want kibble? Why would mushers take kibble? I wasnt aware they even fed kibble. Dog sports are $$. Mortgage companies dont take kibble. Or at least last time I checked. For the record my show dog hunts ducks chases cattle and goes quading every day. She sleeps on the couch everynight only because she takes up to much room on my bed. Yup abused
Actions do speak much louder than words, you're correct. The post you quoted me in is from July 2006. My dogs are still out for most (if not all) of the day quite often in the summer, because the weather is so nice and the outdoors is honestly cooler than my house. I also have quite a bit of acreage fenced in for them. However, they always have the option of coming in the house if they want to when I get home from work, and they almost always overnight in the house during the winter. I have couches, dog beds and crates just for them. The cats take advantage of these comforts when the dogs are not inside. Archie (one of two who won't kill cats) sleeps loose, inside next to my bed, every night.
You know, if ANYONE other than you had posted this thread, I might have been more willing to look into it. But like chicken little, I have looked into the 'concerns' raised in your other threads, and found them all specious.
And DON'T you DARE attack Lynn. I have seen her dogs, and I have seen the heroic efforts she has made to ensure her dogs are healthy enough to do what they want to do. Cause its not like JRTs tell you they aren't fine. I have been to her house and seen how her dogs live, and the relationship her and her family has with her dogs. So just drop that idea, you are so wrong.
But then again, that is nothing new.
And DON'T you DARE attack Lynn. I have seen her dogs, and I have seen the heroic efforts she has made to ensure her dogs are healthy enough to do what they want to do. Cause its not like JRTs tell you they aren't fine. I have been to her house and seen how her dogs live, and the relationship her and her family has with her dogs. So just drop that idea, you are so wrong.
But then again, that is nothing new.
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Outdoor housedogs or would that be indoor outdoor dogs??? Actually, I don't find anything wrong with this at all so long as all basic care, social and exercise needs are met, so why would it be OK for you and wrong for others? It is a real challenge ensuring that huskies kept entirely indoors receive anywhere near the amount of exercise the breed requires and this is where I see a lot of owners getting into trouble with problem behaviors (i.e. a bored husky is a rescue bound demolition waiting to happen).
Debbie
Well said. There are plenty of animal welfare laws on the books. Dogs without adequate shelter, food or water are already protected under the law. I think we all agree that violations of the welfare laws should be prosecuted. But that is an entirely different thing from trying to eliminate the existence of an entire sport bc of a few bad apples.
Yes, the story of the man kicking his dog was stomach churning. Yes, we should stop that. No, most people keeping racing huskies do not do that to their dogs. Nor do they keep them in unhealthy conditions. The suggestion just doesn't make sense. You are not going to win with dogs that are dehydrated, poorly fed and poorly rested and terrified of the musher. Come on. Who do you think is going to believe that story?
Yes, the story of the man kicking his dog was stomach churning. Yes, we should stop that. No, most people keeping racing huskies do not do that to their dogs. Nor do they keep them in unhealthy conditions. The suggestion just doesn't make sense. You are not going to win with dogs that are dehydrated, poorly fed and poorly rested and terrified of the musher. Come on. Who do you think is going to believe that story?