Homer's situation got me thinking

[sam]

about the different way we perceive aggression in dogs vs in humans.

If Elegy had posted that she went on a first / second / third date and the guy had roughed her up, hit her etc, would any of us have said she should seek counselling and try to make it work with him ? Would we feel badly for the guy and say that he probably had had a difficult past, someone must have been mean or abusive to him, that he didn't have the proper upbringing but maybe with lots of love, time and therapy she could make it work ?

No. We'd be telling her that no matter how nice, smart, funny, personable, how apologetic, how handsome, how rich or successful, a leopard won't change his spots at least not enough. Cut your losses, GET OUT and don't look back.

Yet with dogs, even after a dog has viciouslyor inexcusably bitten over and over, drawn blood, torn clothing, caused injury there will be a percentage of people who will say you shouldn't give up on that dog.

Kind of interesting I think. Thoughts?

 

[dr2little]

I really don't understand the comparison. Is said date another species who doesn't speak the same language? Just poking at you Sam but I honestly don't think there is any reasonable way to compare the two.

I think what's happening with elegy is raw and very painful, if her name was not in the post I could give you a pretty compelling arguement.

 

[Friskycatz]

I think a human and a dog are two totally diffrent things, they should never be perceived as the same because they are not. I for one agree that if she feels in danger for herself or others the dog should be put down, but not without exploring the cause of what happened, there is always a cause, my perception is she has had this dog two weeks??? Thats not really long enough to show a dog you are not going to harm him, and when you press down or forcefully move a dog you know nothing about and he knows not much about you, you are likely to get bitten. Now this in no way excuses the dog or points fingers at the owner, i just think theres a root to why this dog done what he done. And yes, some dogs cannot be rehabilitated but two weeks is not long enough to decide whether theres hope or not, now i don't know the full story, i could be missing some very important info, But thats just my two cents. I feel that if it feels right in her heart and she truly feels theres no hope, i am behind her 100% , But i don't want her to go back after the fact second guessing herself and blaming herself for the rest of her life either. I want to make sure she is positive this is what needs to be done, without the guilt.

 

[sam]

I really don't understand the comparison. Is said date another species who doesn't speak the same language? Just poking at you Sam but I honestly don't think there is any reasonable way to compare the two.

I think what's happening with elegy is raw and very painful, if her name was not in the post I could give you a pretty compelling arguement.

I know it's apples and oranges and I am much more apt to work on a behavior problem with a dog than with a human but it's an interesting comparison I think. AND DO YOUR REALLY THINK MEN ARE THE SAME SPECIES OR SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE ? LOL Oops- sorry, didn't mean to shout-- caps lok and I don't have time to edit

Take Elegy out of this and give me your thoughts. This isn't about her or Homer specifically. It's an observation I've made reading dog forums for the last few years. It seems to me we are much more likely to forgive and work with a dog than a human, when the roots of the problems are the same ie some part genetic predisposition or uterine environment, menatl illness/unstable temperament, some part environmental factors and childhood/puppyhood/socialisation etc. Dogs or humans can both make progress with rehabilitation but neither will be "cured" in the sense of being just like anyone else. It always needs to be monitored, managed, cared for, medicated etc.

I just find it interesting that there are many people who would grant no mercy to a human, but have a really "never say die" approach to dogs. I'm sure it has much of it's basis in the fact that dogs are not moral and that most times how screwed up they are is a direct result of actions by a human, but isn't that somewhat the same for humans? Go to your local prison or psych ward and chat with some inmates and you will hear some VERY sad stories. Most humans who end up in that type of trouble didn't have a great start in life either-- far from it usually.

I've been thinking about some of these things while reading "For the love of a dog" Patricia McConnell's new book that explores emotions in dogs and in humans including a chapter about anger. And I am a big dog nerd and I'd rather discuss this than go clean up my kitchen mess . I just thought it was good food for thought/discussion opcorn:

 

[Julie]

Well, I am sorry to say........... I wouldn't want either, an aggressive/out of control dog OR an aggressive/out of control man.!!! Either one would put a big stress factor for family life. With that being said, Lol... I would put more work into a dog, because they cannot reason their actions, and cannot make decisions for themselves, and a man can......at least I think they should be able too.

 

[ToscasMom]

Ok I'll bite. Here's my thought:

If someone, four- legged or two- legged, threatens my well-being, that creature, human or otherwise, is gone.

 

[PWCorgi]

Well this may be completely wrong as I know nothing compared to most people about aggressive dog behavior (other than my personal experiences).

IMO, with an aggressive person, they know what they are doing is wrong, they *have* to. I don't think that any person could go through life in this day and age thinking that it is acceptable to hit another person, and if they thought it was morally right they would have to know that it is unlawful.

A dog on the other hand, IMO still, doesn't have the cognitive ability to see what they are doing as wrong unless they are taught otherwise. I think in many dogs it it purely an ingrained response, they do not think of the consequences of their actions.

Plus, I like dogs more than men...

 

[Doberluv]

I think a human and a dog are two totally diffrent things, they should never be perceived as the same because they are not. I for one agree that if she feels in danger for herself or others the dog should be put down, but not without exploring the cause of what happened, there is always a cause, my perception is she has had this dog two weeks??? Thats not really long enough to show a dog you are not going to harm him, and when you press down or forcefully move a dog you know nothing about and he knows not much about you, you are likely to get bitten. Now this in no way excuses the dog or points fingers at the owner, i just think theres a root to why this dog done what he done. And yes, some dogs cannot be rehabilitated but two weeks is not long enough to decide whether theres hope or not, now i don't know the full story, i could be missing some very important info, But thats just my two cents. I feel that if it feels right in her heart and she truly feels theres no hope, i am behind her 100% , But i don't want her to go back after the fact second guessing herself and blaming herself for the rest of her life either. I want to make sure she is positive this is what needs to be done, without the guilt.
__________________

Good post! I really tend to agree with you.

I couldn't possibly compare homo sapien and Mr. Carnivore. The human boyfriend and Fido have a very differnent approach to the cognitive process. Human has a lot more intelligence (so the story goes) and as Jean Donaldson puts it, can move forward and backward through time. A human has a lot more reasoning going on. A dog, I believe reasons too, to a degree, but certainly not to the degree that a human does. A human bases his/her behavior on human's values. A dog bases his behavior on canine values except for...and this is important....what he has been taught. If he has been taught that humans are unsafe, he will have no other recourse but to revert to his own dog-like behavior. So, to think that a dog is evil or bad the same way we'd see a human jerk boyfriend be bad......well, it just can't be compared.

Ok I'll bite. Here's my thought:

If someone, four- legged or two- legged, threatens my well-being, that creature, human or otherwise, is gone.

Tosca! Gotta luv ya! I just love your no nonsense approach. Fantastic!

 

[RD]

I could not and would not live with a dog that bit me repeatedly, tearing clothes and drawing blood. I don't care if I touched the dog and used more pressure than I would for petting. I am not comfortable LIVING with a dog that will snap and attack on that scale with such a small amount of pressure from a human. Granted, if it were one of my own dogs that I'd had for years and knew inside and out, I would be more inclined to give that dog the benefit of the doubt and seek expensive, extensive help for it.

On the other hand, dog behavior is simple compared to human behavior. I would be more inclined to give an amoral animal a second try than a human who knows what they are doing is wrong.

 

[dr2little]

I know it's apples and oranges and I am much more apt to work on a behavior problem with a dog than with a human but it's an interesting comparison I think. aND DO YOUR REALLY THINK MEN ARE THE SAME SPECIES OR SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE ? LOL opps- sorry- didn't mean to shout-- caps lok and I don't have time to edit

Take Elegy out of this and give me your thoughts. This isn't about her or Homer specifically. It's an observation I've made reading dog forums for the last few years. It seems to me we are much more likely to forgive and work with a dog than a human when the roots of the problems are the same ie some part genetic predisposition or uterine environment, some part environmental factors and childhood/puppyhood/socialisation etc. Dogs or humans can both make progress with rehabilitation but neither will be "cured" in the sens eof being just like anyone else. It always needs to be monitired, managed , cared for.

I just find it interesting that there are many people who would grant no mercy to a human but have a really "never say die" approach to dogs. I'm sure it has much of it's basis in the fact that dogs our not moral and that most times how screwed up they are is a direct result of actions by a human, but isn't that somewhat the same for humans? Go to your local prison and chat with some inmates and you will hear some very sad stories. Most humans who end up in that type of trouble didn't have a great start in life either.
I've been thinking about some of these things while reading "For the love of a dog" Patricia McConnell's new book that explores emotions in dogs and in humans including a chapter about anger. And I am a big dog nerd and I'd rather discuss this than go clean up my kitchen mess . I thought it was good food for thought opcorn:

I loved For the love of a dog!! It was my fav this year...I mean last year, can't believe it's 2007 already.

First, I think that people are much more willing to forgive the sins of a human than they are the sins of a dog. We hold dogs to a much higher standard than we do humans. Like Jean D. said, we expect our dogs never to disagree with us or eachother and god help them if they do bite human or animal because even though it is a normal canine behavior, they'd better know that WE HUMANS won't tolerate it. I'm not for one second saying that dog bites are acceptable, they're not, but think about it from a dogs perspective and what they'd be like if left to their own devices. We have them living in our world and I can tell you first hand how quickly people are all to willing to send them to the bridge for even minor infractions.

When's the last time you heard someone tell you that their neighbor euthanized their child because said child bit another kid at school.

A breeder friend (past tense due to this phone call) called me a few days ago to tell me that one of her little females that she bought for her future breeding program is being PTS at the ripe old age of 6 months. This gal is planning to start breeding in 2008 and is getting her "stock" ready....LIKE THERE AREN'T ALREADY ENOUGH PUPPIES IN THIS WORLD. She has already re-homed one dog because she wasn't right and now this little pup appears to have a bladder problem. Her ultrasound was odd but her biopsy was negative, she needs to pee every 2 hours and can not hold it.....or so she says. I'm frantically searching for someone to take this beautiful creature that she thinks is so flawed she needs to die.
This happens EVERY DAY, I get so many of these types of calls.
Human babies take how long to house train???

Today I ran into a client who when I asked her how Buba was doing she enthusiastically told me that she met someone and got married and had to sell Buba so they could travel.....If I had a nickle for every one of those..


Most of the aggression cases that I see are dogs that ended up with issues due to the owners abuse, mistreatment, or just plain ignorance. Very rarely is it something to do with poor breeding, illness or anything organic. Many of those cases I do pro bono because the owners need to see that training is cheaper than the needle.

Believe me Sam. I have removed plenty of dogs from homes because they are not safe due to being a bite risk and I absolutely take human safety very seriously. Just one week doing this job and you'd see, dogs get the short end of the stick more often than not.

I really just can't compare a human inmate to a dog. The risk that each poses to society and trying to compare crimes....just see it as twinkies to good year blimps (didn't want to wear the old apples to oranges thing out)

 

[ToscasMom]

Tosca! Gotta luv ya!

Nah you ain't Gotta, but you better!:lol-sign:

 

[ToscasMom]

Plus, I like dogs more than men...

Funny you should mention that. My dog sheds less than my ex husband did.

 

[ravennr]

I choose dogs over men any day.
I can assure you, I'd retaliate against a man, who has so much more understanding of right and wrong, before I'd ever retaliate against a dog, who is acting on manipulation by humans, or, rarely, pure instinct.

Besides, when dogs beg, you can just tell them to go lay down.

 

[Doberluv]

I'm reading For the Love of a Dog right now....about half way through and lovin' it.

Doc...I so agree with you about seeing it through a dog's perspective and what incredibly high expectations we put on dogs, unreasonable expectations. I get so sick of people projecting human cognition onto dogs, I could scream! And how they view everything a dog does by human standards. "It's unacceptable that he pees in the house at 3 months of age!" "He's just being stubborn!" "He won't listen and he's blowing me off." I swear! It's the cause of so much abuse and mistreatment and the cause of these poor dogs like Homer ending up being dumped in shelters.

I totally share your compassion for dogs like this. But I also, not knowing the prognosis or time involved to rehabilitate, do understand the very legitimate fear of what could happen with this dog. What child could be killed if a gate is opened?

What IS the prognosis for dogs with similar behavior? I know that we don't know what went on with this dog. But just by what we do know....any similar situations? What was the outcome? Was the dog reliable there after? How long might it take?

I'm just rambling. Sorry.

 

[Doberluv]

Gosh! I'm always missing posts. Doc's was the last one I read before I started typing. And I type pretty fast. I think I think too slowly. LOL

Tosca! You're a riot!

 

[Friskycatz]

Well if you guys remeber i had an aggressive problem with ginger, but i feel its diffrent cause she was a 10 week old pup so i can't really give advice on the ages where rehabilitation doesn't work, but i can say after being here for a month, and working with her theres a HUGE diffrence in her. Now i know this doesn't pertain to older dogs but i thought i'd throw that in cause i'm bored and felt like it (grin)

 

[misticaleclipse]

Well for a few reasons I don't think its a good comparison.

1) Dogs cannot speak. A dog could be in pain for weeks, months etc and we would not know until they snap in some way. If you have a dislocated hip for a week and no one noticed I think you would be pretty pissed to.

2) Dogs reactions are a results of things like breeding, growing up etc, just like us, but I think there child hood is imprinted on them more than us. I think people have the ability to shrug off a bad child hood and make a choice more than a dog does. My opinion of course.

3) Humans usually have friends, family, husband, wife, etc They have social outlets, hobbies, etc. What does the dog have? your family. I think their world revolves around you. Similar to a baby, so we are more inclined to give them more leeway in this respect. Not saying its right, just something to think about...

 

[dr2little]

I'm reading For the Love of a Dog right now....about half way through and lovin' it.

Doc...I so agree with you about seeing it through a dog's perspective and what incredibly high expectations we put on dogs, unreasonable expectations. I get so sick of people projecting human cognition onto dogs, I could scream! And how they view everything a dog does by human standards. "It's unacceptable that he pees in the house at 3 months of age!" "He's just being stubborn!" "He won't listen and he's blowing me off." I swear! It's the cause of so much abuse and mistreatment and the cause of these poor dogs like Homer ending up being dumped in shelters.

I totally share your compassion for dogs like this. But I also, not knowing the prognosis or time involved to rehabilitate, do understand the very legitimate fear of what could happen with this dog. What child could be killed if a gate is opened?

What IS the prognosis for dogs with similar behavior? I know that we don't know what went on with this dog. But just by what we do know....any similar situations? What was the outcome? Was the dog reliable there after? How long might it take?

I'm just rambling. Sorry.

I really do understand the fear and like I said, I myself have removed dogs from homes for that reason.

As for the prognosis, it really depends on so many things. Owner compliance is one of the most important variables in rehab.. Safety of course tops the list, if children are in the home my recommendations are often different than if its an adult only home. In these cases size does matter. Consequences are more serious with a large dog as opposed to an ankle biter...

The bite grade level is also a factor, even more than multiple superficial bites.

I can honestly say that this year (2006) there has been only one dog who was PTS after rehab. and that was because the woman got pregnant and was just too affraid of the 'what ifs'...and I was too quite honestly. She called me after she had her put down, I would have liked to have said goodbye but I knew that she loved her and didn't want someone else to abuse her if she relapsed. She did the right thing and it broke her heart.

 

[Doberluv]

Wow. It is such a heart wrenching decision, especially when the dog hasn't been around very long and it's hard to know what it's triggers are until you spend lots of time with him. So sad...

 

[joce]

I think there is no comparing dogs to people when it comes to that.

When we take on a dog its a for better or worse thing and ultimately you are responcible through the good and the bad-its not the same way with a bad boyfriend.

You are in no way responcible for another human being.

But if people were not responcible for their pets and said oops it peed on the floor or disrespected me or something equally stupid and now I have to get rid of it because this isn't right -then they are completley irresponcible because when you take on that pet you take on its problems.

I'm not saying a person should have to put up with it forever but an effort needs to be put in there and a decision needs made about what is best for the dog. And as with some people there are some dogs that are jsut not going to accept help and there is nothing you can do. But as an owner its our job to try.