Here Is An Idea People!!.............

[Aussie Red]

Sorry it must be my bad breeding

 

[Renee750il]

But one must remember Nicole Nepolian Bonaparte and Marie Antoinette were French royalty too . They really lost their heads being so royal lol

Actually, Napoleon wasn't from any royal family and Marie Antoinette was Austrian

 

[Renee750il]

Sorry it must be my bad breeding

Aw, Aus . . . were you rescued from a BSB? (Back Seat Breeder)

 

[Purdue#1]

you know you do what you think is right. I would put my dog against his but from what I can see of his ways and all there would be no competition because he is going to set the course in his favor. I have no doubt that it would be a show you who is better because what have I to loose a few misguided morons that are going to believe what they want to believe rather then what is in their face ? Richling could not best the people I know and work with and he would not try. He would become nothing more then the loud mouthed blow hard that he is and find a way to try to turn it to his favor.

This is Martin Richling. If any one of you people would like to debate "humane dog training methods" with me, I want you to do so with me IN PERSON anyplace, anytime. I will come to you people by mine own self, with my dog only, at your training places, and I will prove to you all that you are slanderous fools.

He said he would do it where you train. i just think your trying to make excuses.

 

[Doberluv]

I wouldn't care if my dogs were the worst traind dogs in the world. I wouldn't hit them with a stick. I love my dogs and they're my pals. I wouldn't hit my human friend with a stick either. Do what you want Purdue and stop trying to convince people here who love their dogs that trained dogs in some exact amount is everything. Relationships are everything. Go on your way and be merry.

 

[Purdue#1]

here, doberlov since you want written down info so bad...

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/index.html

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Purdue....Richlings methods may work....for the time being. That isn't even what is in question here. The problem is, is other methods work too. Ones that don't include beating a dog. And the ones that don't include beating your dogs are the ones that work for the long haul. If you hit your dog it WILL NOT trust you. It WILL NOT respect you. It will do what you ask of it simply because it is SCARED OF YOU!!!!! And one day, that dog is going to think enough is enough and you will be on the losing end of that stick.

Why would you want to hit your dog when other methods work BETTER??? This is what we are trying to understand.

Another thing that pi$$es me off is the fact that you people do not believe in leashes. I think EVERY DOG SHOULD BE LEASHED while in public AT ALL TIMES. Not just for other dogs and humans safety but for your dogs safety as well.

Oh and another thing. I have friends that train police dogs...ones that actually do police work. They don't EVER hit the dogs and they are some of the most sought after police dogs.

They training methods are based on trust.

Some of you also keep talking about training for stressful situations. Properly trained a dog should not find many situations stressful. If a situation IS stressful then your dog should not be in it.

A police dog, for instance, actually isn't put in situations that are stressful to them. They are trained in a way that accustoms them to many many MANY situations. Just because a police dog is attacking a criminal does not mean that it is in a stressful situation. Trained properly, these dogs are simply doing a job that is fun for them.

Purdue....obviously you didn't read my post.

 

[BostonBanker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Red
are you some sort of doodle ?

I've been trying to keep it secret!

Okay, I'm going to admit it. BP was one of my early experiments in LactoseFreeDoodleBreeding. We can't all have 100% success rates, right? (Well, except MR). I'm sorry - if I'd staved her a few times before releasing her into the world, perhaps we wouldn't be having these issues.

 

[Purdue#1]

Purdue....obviously you didn't read my post.

i did read your post. obviously you did not read my link.

How does a method of dog training remain popular for so long? Results. Consistant, predictable, results. Why has so much contraversy not diminished it’s popularity? Results. Consistant, predictable, results. Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems, what protects and keeps viable the Koehler method? Results. Consistant, predictable, results.



Applied stimuli and the dog’s Pattern of Learning (part one)



Before I get into this discussion I would like to acknowledge those who have suggested that by offering this type of analysis that some of the "magic" will be lost. We hope not, but we would like to correct some of the misconceptions that have followed this method right into cyberspace.



Action® Memory® Desire. This is how the learning pattern of the dog could be abstractly expressed. Here are two examples of how Mother Nature uses this learning pattern to produce [first] a behaviour likely to repeat itself, then [second] a behaviour not likely to repeat.



In our first study a young dog is exploring his new surroundings when he discovers a hole in the fence large enough for him to squeeze through, which he does. Not realizing that he has crossed some boundry his owner’s have tried to define, he continues to "explore."

An hour passes and his exploration leads him to an object of great curiosity. The scents emitted by this object are absolutely delightful and he moves in for closer examination.

As he cautiously approaches he starts to realize that the source of the smell which he finds so compelling is not the object itself, but something else. A more determined examination of the thing is called for and he starts circling it, barking at it, and finally throws himself against it (actually, trying to jump on it to further explore it’s top surface).

The object tips over with a clang, the lid falls off, and the young dog topples over. As he regains his balance, composure, and orientation he turns back toward the object of his curiosity and Eureka! A virtual cornicopia of smells, flavors, and textures.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...a search has begun to find out where Johnny’s Christmas present has run off to. Oh, they will eventually find him; along with a bonus feature, the newly acquired skill of dumpster diving.

The action of diving at the can, produced conditions for favorable memory, the desire to again experience the same memory is high. This behaviour will likely repeat.



Our second study offers a different "point" for the adventurous young dog. Again we find him exploring his not so new surroundings when he discovers another hole in the fence large enough for him to squeeze through, which he does.

With his nose to the ground, he navigates his way straight back for his "Horn of Plenty." But, while in route, he comes across another curious smell and decides to pursue it instead.

The better part of an hour goes by. His determination and persistance, driven by his unwavering curiosity, qualify him as one well bred beagle. Now "locked-on" to the scent trail he hunts it with unknown intent. The scent grows fresher by the minute, the crushed vegetation sweeter...he’s close, very close. Moments later, there it is, the object of his curiosity. But exactly what is it? It too is foraging, it has four feet, a tail, head, eyes, and nose. All in all it’s not very different from our curious little beagle, except for it’s coat.

Resolved to get a better take on what this unusual creature wears as fur, our young dog moves in closure for a look. He cautiously circles it, barks at it, then throws himself at it.

While at the vets office, an hour later, our beagle now knows that "IT" has a name...porcupine. The behaviour of "porcupine pouncing" is not likely to repeat anytime soon.



The two examples above are illustrations of "untrained learned behaviour." As you can see, it was the consequence of thier action which defined what the dog learned. It was the experience which allowed for this new understanding. Experience & Consequence, this is how Mother Nature intended for her young students to learn.



"Trained skilled behaviour" is learned in much the same manner. The automatic-sit is one exercise which illustrates a skilled behaviour. Note that I have referred to the automatic-sit as a "skilled behaviour" rather than simply "behaviour." The distinction? The later may represent nothing more than a random act; whereas the former can only express a behaviour which has been taught. The correctly taught behaviour provides us with a fair and reasonable expectation of the behaviour thus making any correction, fair, reasonable, and expected. Both are learned, one is taught. Here is how we use Experience & Consequense to shape, train, and proof the automatic-sit.



This is WHAT we do:

The dog is first taught where, and how to sit. This is done by carefully placing him in the correct position and praising him for the effort. We then teach the dog when to sit by introducing the sit command. And lastly, we challenge the dog’s reliability by requiring him to sit in the face of some very tempting distractions.



This is HOW we do it:

Days 1 & 2 of the second week: Shaping

Give the dog the "Joe-Heel" command and move in a direction of your choosing. As you make the proper turns the dog will correct himself for forging, lagging, crowding, or heeling wide. When the dog has maintained "Pleasant Heaven" for 10 - 15 paces, slide your left hand down the leash and stop at the stitching. This will also stop both your’s and the dog’s forward motion. Now, replace your left hand with your right and use your left hand to position the dog into a sitting position facing the direction you were heeling. Relax the leash and praise the dog. Do this 25X per night...use no command.



Days 3&4 of the second week: Training

Proceed exactly as above except to start giving the dog the command "Joe-Sit." He should hear the command just before his rear end hits the ground. Relax the leash and praise the dog. Do this 25X per night.



Days 5&6 of the second week: Training

Bring the dog to your starting point and give him the command "Joe-Heel," after 10 paces slide your left hand down to the stitching ( stopping the dog’s forward motion) place your right hand next to your left hand (you should now be grasping the leash with both hands) bend a little at the knees to put some slack in the collar and give the command "Joe-sit." Wait 2 seconds for a response, he will either sit (as he has done 100 times previously) for reward, or he will not...in which case you will jerk straight up with both hands thus causing the dog’s head to go up, his rear to go down, and as soon as he is sitting...relax the leash and praise the dog. Repeat this procedure 25X per night.



Days 1&2 of the third week: Training/Proofing

Repeat your previous days work but omit the command. Simply come to a stop, slide your left hand down to the stitching ( stopping the dog’s forward motion) place your right hand next to your left hand (you should now be grasping the leash with both hands) bend a little at the knees to put some slack in the collar (your posture has already become the antecedent for the behaviour), wait 2 seconds for a response, he will either sit (as he has now done 150 times previously) for reward, or he will not...in which case you will jerk straight up with both hands thus causing the dog’s head to go up, his rear to go down, and as soon as he is sitting...relax the leash and praise the dog. Repeat this procedure 25X per night.

This is WHY it works

The dog is allowed to experience both the behaviour (sitting) and the cosequential act of the behaviour (praise). The dog learns from this experience that the action of sitting brings about the consequential action of praise.



What if the dog does not sit? The dog is then allowed to experience both the mis-behaviour (not sitting) and the consequential action of the mis-behaviour (correction). The dog learns that the action of not sitting brings about the consequential action of correction which "causes" the correct behaviour (sit) which brings about the consequential action of praise.



Abstractly expressed, it would look like this:



Shaping: Mechanical Placing® Desired behaviour® Praise



Training: Mechanical Placing + Command® Desired behaviour® Praise



Training/Proofing:

Desired behaviour® Praise
Command® or
Undesired behaviour® Correction® Desired behaviour® Praise



When commanded to sit the dog is faced with two choices. He may choose to sit with, or without correction. Which would you choose?

 

[BostonBanker]

here, doberlov since you want written down info so bad...

Okay, I read the whole page. I won't get into whether I think it is evil or not, just ask a couple of questions. I'm interested in the replies from anyone; Purdue, Doberluv, positive trainers or not, those who believe in the science and those who don't.

First of all, the red light analogy. Do I feel nervous every time I approach the red light? No. However, it isn't the red light that is producing a punishment for me when I choose to ignore it; it is the police officer. Do I get nervous every time I see a police officer? Darn right. My pulse increases and my stomach gets tight. I am overly cautious when they are driving behind me, and have been known to take a different route than I originally intended to just to get away from them. I'm not doing anything wrong, and I've been pulled over only a handful of times in my life. But I am nervous and on edge. How would you fit this into the above analogy?

Okay, my next question is in regards to the heeling; I think it was where he starts talking about "free-heeling" (which I find ironic that it is done on-leash, but I won't argue the semantics). You do your heeling, then teach the dog to sit next to you, then praise. Because dogs live in the moment (and I have seen MR refer to this in his posts as well, regarding dogs with a history of abuse/punishment), my belief is that the praise is going to affect the most recent behavior - in this case, the sit. So in my way of thought, the dog is never getting rewarded for a heel. To carry that a bit further, if the praise is going to occur in the sit, you would think the dog would be "looking" for that sit to occur, right? Which means they aren't going to have the drive to work in a heel? Or they will, but it will, in this case, be strictly the drive to avoid a correction, not to earn a reward? Sorry, that was a lot of questions in a row - answer however you see fit.

As far as the enjoyment factor goes, I can only say that we prefer to get the dog beyond contention so that we can enjoy the companionship of the trained dog, not the process of training him.

Well, okay. Questions over, so I will show my colors. I would prefer to enjoy both myself. "We must love the journey, not just the destination" and all that "liberal" crap. Time to turn in my card as a Republican, I guess.

That aside, I do hope I get to hear the answers to these questions from both sides. And Purdue, thanks for posting the link. I'm interested in reading almost anything.

*edited because, if I could train a dog to "heal", I'd be a rich woman.

 

[MelissaCato]

Time to turn in my card as a Republican, I guess.

Funny you say that, I'm a life long Demo who never voted. 08' will be the first year I vote and I switched to Republican just for Ron Paul.
If Demo's get 08' America's Constitution is gone with the wind. Fact.

Betcha never heard an Injun say those words in public.... LMAO

 

[Purdue#1]

no we praise during heeling. he goes by koehler's principles, but he doesn't use all of his techniques.

i don't fear an officer because i know some police officers, and i have respect for police officers. i don't fear them. i fear the correction they will give me (a ticket) if i don't obey the laws. when a person gets a ticket(correction) they are mad at the officer yes but they hate getting the ticket more. Then they are like " okay i shouldn't do that again. if i do that then i will get a ticket (correction) from a cop(master) again."

Is it starting to make sense?

 

[Fruit bat]

Wow what a mess this thread is. I don't know sh!t about Richling, but if he hits a dog with a stick to achieve ROBOT PERFECTION then I don't need to know anymore. My Sadie pup has kisses for me and total sweetness. She will focus without break when I'm holding steak trimmins.LOL She is my companion, not a robot.
As for Whiskey, Wow that dog amazes me, He will do anything for Mom. I think ,because he loves her, not because she will kick his ass if he doesn't.
Those of you who think you need be mean, to make your dog make you look good, are assholes and thats not what I though having a pet was about.

 

[heavyjay]

Funny you say that, I'm a life long Demo who never voted. 08' will be the first year I vote and I switched to Republican just for Ron Paul.
If Demo's get 08' America's Constitution is gone with the wind. Fact.

Betcha never heard an Injun say those words in public.... LMAO

Ron Paul is a good man.

 

[Aussie Red]

Perdue you said you wanted proof not Richling. The only reason he would take my challenge is to get people like yourself that are already firmly locked into the belief that you have to strike an animal and instill fear into it to have it mind. I will no longer debate you nor will I in the future look at photos of your poor dog because it will absolutely disgust me that he is an abused animal and that we allow your kind here in a forum of animal lovers.
Boston Banker your red light theory so fits I love it. Anyway we need no longer talk Perdue and any who feel that hitting and intimidating an animal is the way. It is abuse simple as that in my eyes. I will not associate with animal abusers. I fight them daily. You do it your way and when you get your fill of dogs who later on go bad or do not care to come to you for affection, or only do what you want them to do because they are afraid not to, and are ready to try a kinder simpler and more humane approach to animals then I will again acknowledge you. I am now going to put more effort into fighting Richling and his ways. I hope he will be seeing just what that Vick guy is.

 

[Purdue#1]

well then prove us all wrong. prove to us that we don't have to use corrections and that your methods actually work, but until you can do that ,or are willing to do that, these are the methods we will use.
i keep telling you this and all you do is flame me so i guess there is no point in me talking to you or looking at your dogs either.

i think you don't want to put your dog against richling's dog zadok. he said he would work his dog at your training places. what's the problem?

 

[Aussie Red]

well then prove us all wrong. prove to us that we don't have to use corrections and that your methods actually work, but until you can do that ,or are willing to do that, these are the methods we will use.
i keep telling you this and all you do is flame me so i guess there is no point in me talking to you or looking at your dogs either.

i think you don't want to put your dog against richling's dog zadok. he said he would work his dog at your training places. what's the problem?

What is it I have to prove to him ? Are you coming out here too ? What is it you need to see a video from him ? You're mind is set and I do not want to be in the same state as that jerk are you willing to post bail if I see him hit a dog ? Sure he is willing. He is hoping to see me fail. He is hoping to spread it through my circle that he is better. I know he wont but how many positive trainers have you watched ? any ? Can richlings dog what its face herd ? can he take off on the mountain for hours at a time and not see it's owner and still return cattle in tow ? I bet Richlings dog would not make it back.

 

[Aussie Red]

well then prove us all wrong. prove to us that we don't have to use corrections and that your methods actually work, but until you can do that ,or are willing to do that, these are the methods we will use.
i keep telling you this and all you do is flame me so i guess there is no point in me talking to you or looking at your dogs either.

i think you don't want to put your dog against richling's dog zadok. he said he would work his dog at your training places. what's the problem?

Why does he "" talk "" through you ? Why does he not join here and try to change us ? I am not sure you even speak to him about this

 

[JTP]

First of all, the red light analogy. Do I feel nervous every time I approach the red light? No. However, it isn't the red light that is producing a punishment for me when I choose to ignore it; it is the police officer. Do I get nervous every time I see a police officer? Darn right. My pulse increases and my stomach gets tight. I am overly cautious when they are driving behind me, and have been known to take a different route than I originally intended to just to get away from them. I'm not doing anything wrong, and I've been pulled over only a handful of times in my life. But I am nervous and on edge. How would you fit this into the above analogy? QUOTE]

Here is where a lot of trainers go wrong, they forget that dogs are dogs, and not humans. Dogs think very different from humans
If a dog drove a car, and got a ticket consistently everytime he ran a red light, he would not run redlights. Humans learn to look around for a cop, and go on through, but a dog would not after a certain number of repetitions of tickets.
All the dog knows is to stop at the red light.
Past training has simply reinforced repetetively not to run the red light.

Humans however are not consistent enforcers of each other, and have complex thought patterns, so they know that running the redlight is against the law, but they also know getting caught is not a consistent absolute, even if a cop is sitting there.

If there was one of the European type cqameras there, and you knew that every time you ran the light, that you would get a ticket in the mail, then you would not run that light.

 

[BostonBanker]

i don't fear an officer because i know some police officers, and i have respect for police officers. i don't fear them. i fear the correction they will give me (a ticket) if i don't obey the laws. when a person gets a ticket(correction) they are mad at the officer yes but they hate getting the ticket more. Then they are like " okay i shouldn't do that again. if i do that then i will get a ticket (correction) from a cop(master) again."

Is it starting to make sense?

I know some police officers as well; I used to work as an animal control officer based out of a police department. I have the utmost respect for most of them (trust me, some really are jerks who like to push their power to the limits).

So, do you never speed? Ever, not even a mile above the speed limit? If you respect the police officers, and if the correction worked, I assume that would be the result. (I know I'm jumping away from the red light analogy; speeding is easier to discuss and just as relevant.)

And actually, as I think about it more, I am actually less likely to speed in the town where I worked with the police. I've never gotten a ticket there, and never will for something like mild speeding. I have a relationship with the people in that department based on several years of working together, and I do respect that enough to follow their rules. So, I guess the working relationship affects me more than anything else, since I'm more likely to speed outside that jurisdiction. Not really sure where I am going with that, just thinking 'out loud'.

Your analogy does make sense; I guess I just don't have the same response to being trained with corrections (tickets) as you . I'm a bit like my dog, I guess.

no we praise during heeling. he goes by koehler's principles, but he doesn't use all of his techniques.

Thanks for clarifying. So you (or your instructor) disagree with that aspect of Koehler? Are there other variations in the techniques?