dog aggression to people aggression

[Rainglow17]

I'm the one that posted about Jessie and Columbo... We tried everything that everyone mentioned, as well as using the muzzle to ensure she wont attack the other dog, and a bark coller (that sprays, not shocks). I know how you guys feel about both of those, and i'm not looking for a lecture on why that will make it worse or anything like that.

Today, Jessie got out of her muzzle, ignored the sprays of the collar, got out of our fenced in yard somehow, and was barking at a neighbor's dog, then started growling at our neighbor. She said she was afraid that Jessie was going to bite her.

Using three preventative measures to keep her from being aggressive, and she got through all of them. It would have been a huge liability if she had bitten our neighbor. Not sure if there's anything else at all that we can try, or if she's gonna have to go.

Our dogs our interacting decently... She is always either wearing the muzzle, leashed up, or somehow separated from Columbo. She's not constantly growling and trying to attack him, but still does it fairly often. Even when she was just on the leash, when she'd go at him and try to bite him, I first would use a verbal "no" but she just ignores it, so I would jerk the leash to get her attention back and pull her away.

Needless to say, my dogs can't go out in the back yard and play together like they used to, because I am afraid that she will attack him again. At times, I get frightened that she might attack me when she just stands still and stares at me (it's what she does right before she attacks Columbo), and I have to walk away from her. Aside from getting the Dog Whisperer guy to come and train her, i'm not sure what else to do... other than just keep them separated for the rest of their lives... which isnt fair to either of them. They used to both sleep in our bedroom with us, play together, and be out together all the time when we were home... now they can't do any of that... and a lot of the time that they are out together, Colombo follows me around and stays on the opposite side of me that Jessie is on.

 

[TheWholePack]

Do you live in an area where there are quality dog trainers or behavior specialists? In my opinion it would be worth the price. In case it is difficult for you, perhaps you can ask for a payment plan.

I am also dealing with aggression issues with one of my dogs, and I don't have the option of quality trainers or behaviorists in my area, so I'm doing everything I can to find ways to encounter a solution to the problems that have arisen. I sincerely hope you can find help, it will be worth it!

Don't give up on your dog just yet. Keep reading, asking questions, taking small steps towards improvement, find someone you trust that is qualified to help you and your dog. The reward will outweigh to cost and effort. Keep trying!

Have you had blood work done at the vet? My dog with aggressive tendencies has thyroid problems, and one of the symptoms is aggression. Start there, as well as with a complete check-up at the vet. You might be as surprised as I was.....

Best of luck and please don't give up! I may not be able to give you a lot of training advice, but you certainly have my support as long as you're doing everything possible for the good of the dog.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Sounds to me like you need professional help.

NOT someone like the dog whisperer. LOL

Look for someone who trains positively.

~Tucker

 

[Doberluv]

...as well as using the muzzle to ensure she wont attack the other dog, and a bark coller (that sprays, not shocks). I know how you guys feel about both of those, and i'm not looking for a lecture on why that will make it worse or anything like that.

What is it you'd like to hear? Your wish is my command. Just tell me what to write and I'll write it.

 

[Dekka]

lol doverluv.

The reasons you are having those issues, is in good part *because* you used those tools..

So sorry there is nothing I can say without telling you things you don't want to hear.

 

[tessa_s212]

We tried everything that everyone mentioned, as well as using the muzzle to ensure she wont attack the other dog, and a bark coller (that sprays, not shocks). I know how you guys feel about both of those, and i'm not looking for a lecture on why that will make it worse or anything like that.

So what? You pick and choose between our advice? You want us to tell you what you WANT to hear? Well we won't. What you want to year and what will help your dogs are two VERY different things.

It is YOU my friend that has caused these problems to worsen by use of those "training aids". And until you realize this, we can do nothing to help you.

God bless your dogs, and grant you with the heart to look at those dogs and give them the kind of relationship with you that they deserve.

Have a good day.

 

[Cessena]

I didn't read the prior thread, so please forgive my ignorance. Do you have any idea what caused the initial agression?

 

[Rainglow17]

NO, I just don't want to hear ten times over how a lot of you feel about those things. I don't agree with it. There are a lot of people who think that they work and don't have any problem using them. It is OPINION, not fact. So all I was saying is to respect the fact that I don't think there's anything wrong with using them, so if you have no advice to offer other than "stop using them, you're making it worse" then I really don't want to hear it, because I (along with many other people) don't agree with it, so obviously that advice is not going to be useful to me. I'm not trying to say that other people are wrong in thinking what they do, we just disagree. And I'm asking to not continue to put people down just because they have different opinions than you. Thanks.

 

[Rainglow17]

I didn't read the prior thread, so please forgive my ignorance. Do you have any idea what caused the initial agression?

No we dont. there really doesnt seem to be a reason. she just one day started attacking him. right before she attacks, she stares at him, and then will snip at his neck, and then full out attack. So there's a little warning, but often not enough.

 

[Doberluv]

Your opinion is based on what? Aren't you the one having difficulty with your dog's behavior? I have had and trained dogs for 47 years and have never had a behavior problem I couldn't fix and without using aggression and piling on stress onto an already stressed out dog. The people who were trying to help you have forgotten more about dogs than you could possibly know. I, for one was on this plannet long before you were born, I expect.

Are you saying that all the science of learning behavior, university behavior departments, experienced behaviorsists with advanced degrees in behavior (who rehabilitate dogs all the time) don't know what they're talking about, but you do? If you think what you're doing is working and the right way to go about it, keep doing what you're doing then. But don't ask for advice. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.

 

[Cessena]

I definetly think you need professional help for this if you can get it, it sounds like a really difficult situation. I'm really sorry your pooches are having such a rough time.

I am not a behaviorist or a trainer or anything, so, I'll be honest that my opinion is probably worth very little. (But that's not going to stop me from giving it to you.)

In life it is important to constantly examine the methods one uses to ensure that they are effective. (Despite what some political figures may think.)

It doesn't seem like, from what you're saying here, that the tecnniques you are currently using are solving your dog's problem. You say she is now showing more aggressive behavior towards new targets. So if I were you I would take a minute and look at what you are doing to see if continuing to do it makes sense in light of the fact that it doesn't seem to be helping. (Not because of what it is, but because it is not working.)

While the preventative measures you are using keep her from acting out violently, they may not be fixing the underlying issue. I really think the best thing for you is to get some outside help on this that will work with you to try different techniques and to find the right solution so that you and your dogs can live in a happy home.

 

[Doberluv]

What good would professional help do? She'll disagree with a behaviorist or trainer. Her opionion is what is apparently correct.

Cessena. Usually a combination of under socialization, improper socialization, bad experiences during the critical periods and poor owner handling causes these problems and in fact escalates them. This dog, because of the "methods" used is going to escalate in aggression to astronomical levels. I'd bet my house on it. He's a ticking time bomb in the making at this rate.

 

[Aussie Red]

if you insist on using your methods then re home the dog. If I were on a chain and muzzled and being jerked or sprayed for behavior that someone found wrong I too would become more aggressive.
Your dog is not allowed to socialize and you are showing your dog nothing but that you do not trust it or like it.
In my honest opinion you are through your training methods or lack of them creating a mean dog.
I am so against any of the things you are doing it isn't even funny. Have you considered the fact that you have shown aggression to your dog and mistrust and that the dog is only acting as it is being taught to do ?
I do not know what you want to hear from us . Do you want me to tell you that you are doing a great job tying your dog up, with a muzzle on and not allowing your dog to have companionship and free play ? No interaction ?
I can not even imagine a dog with a muzzle on and on a tie out all the time. Why do you want it ? I am at a loss here .

 

[Cessena]

You're right Doberluv, the only way a professional would help her would be if she remained open minded and really tried to find the best thing for her dog, not the thing she thinks is best.

 

[Saintgirl]

I am at a loss here. You asked us once before for advice and then when we gave it to you you completely ignored our advice even though we gave warning that things would get worse---SURPRISE!!! Things are getting a whole lot worse aren't they? A behaviorist was recommended then and I will recommend one again. If all of the people who think that the adversive measures you are using will help the problems that you are having, what do they have to say about it getting worse?

Here at Chaz you are going to meet alot of people who know an awful lot about dogs, my best advice to you is to listen to what some of these Chaz members have to say. Obviously those who told you to use a muzzle and a bark collar haven't helped your problem out, why don't you give the positive reinforcement advice a try...that is if you are commited to working with your girl. If not, please rehome her with someone who will take the time to properly rehabilitate her.

 

[Doberluv]

Of course she can't just turn her dog loose with other dogs if he's unpredicable and may start a fight. There are ways to condition him slowly and gradually to learning that other dogs are in fact A.O.K. or at least to tolerate them and act calm. But those ways need to be learned or shown by a qualified behaviorist. The book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons is one example of a very good way to go about it. She is experienced with this and has a fine reputation by her peers. But that's neither here nor there, I guess. I agree that re-homing the dog to an experienced handler/owner in this case would be the very best solution.

 

[Dekka]

Are you saying that all the science of learning behavior, university behavior departments, experienced behaviorsists with advanced degrees in behavior (who rehabilitate dogs all the time) don't know what they're talking about, but you do? If you think what you're doing is working and the right way to go about it, keep doing what you're doing then. But don't ask for advice. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.

There are still people out there who believe the world is flat, and that all science is a big conspiracy. So its not so surprising that some dog owners don't trust scientifically proven and documented FACTs.

 

[Doberluv]

Yes Dekka. And it's not surprising that those same people are the ones with the ongoing behavior problems. So, why do we act surprised? ROFLOL! I guess it's just hard to believe. It's one of those things where ya gotta be there. And we can't be there. Evolution only goes in one direction. We can never go back.

 

[tessa_s212]

NO, I just don't want to hear ten times over how a lot of you feel about those things. I don't agree with it. There are a lot of people who think that they work and don't have any problem using them. It is OPINION, not fact. So all I was saying is to respect the fact that I don't think there's anything wrong with using them, so if you have no advice to offer other than "stop using them, you're making it worse" then I really don't want to hear it, because I (along with many other people) don't agree with it, so obviously that advice is not going to be useful to me. I'm not trying to say that other people are wrong in thinking what they do, we just disagree. And I'm asking to not continue to put people down just because they have different opinions than you. Thanks.

It is not a matter of people putting you down, but that you refuse to listen to those more educated about the subject. You seem to think of yourself as some kind of expert on the topic, that your opinion couldn't possibly be wrong. What an arrogant attitude to have when it is YOUR dog with the problems, not ours. And that isn't luck. That is because individuals such as doberluv are educated and experienced.

If you aren't going to take advice, why ask for it other than to continue to cause problems? We can't help you until you are ready to listen. Until then, you're wasting your time telling us what we can and cannot say.

 

[elegy]

well, you did NOT take my advice at all, so please don't say you've tried everything. why are you even here asking for advice if you don't like what any of us are saying?

buy the book aggression in dogs by brenda aloff and actually READ the thing. it's long. it's expensive. it's the best book out there, imo, on aggression, why it happens, and what to do about it.